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Thread: Beta Arms and Rage Gen

  1. #1
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    Beta Arms and Rage Gen

    I'm pretty disappointed in the current Arms rotation, according to Celestalon it should be keep CS on CD, keep Ms on CD fill with whirlwind, which in an of itself is boring, and even with the later addition of Rend its still pretty boring, that however isn't my main concern; my main concerns are Rage management the raw number of empty GCDs and the Headlong Rush. MS costs 30 rage, WW costs 30 rage, CS costs 10 and Rend cost 10 as well. Our only source of Rage generation is white swings, which for arms generate 30 rage per swing and 60 Rage if they crit. As white swing crits are largely out of your control this means that to not cap out on rage and thus waste it, we need to either need to be particularly attentive of when our next white swing is going to happen or For the most part this means we will want to keep rage between 30 and 40 at all times, that's a very tight operating band, and pretty much make Glyph of Unending rage mandatory. I was under the impression that Glyphs where meant to other options, not illusions of choice.

    Baseline 2 handed weapons have a swing speed of 3.6 seconds. Each swing gives 30 rage so to calculate Rage Per Second (RPS) generated it's;


    RPS = 30 / 3.6

    Working Crit into the RPS gen relatively simple since each crit doubles the rage gen, we can model this as multiplying the whole thing by 1 plus crit rate as a decimal (so 10% crit would be 0.1);

    RPS = (30 / 3.6) x (1 + crit)

    Haste also plays a part as it lowers the swing timer and it does this in the traditional way of base time divided by 1 plus Haste as a decimal;


    RPS = (30 / ( 3.6 / (1 + Haste))) x (1 +Crit)


    If I've done my maths right that means that baseline an arms warriors hould be producing 8.33 Rage per Second. and we can see that Rage will scale Linearly with Crit and Haste. if you have 100% crit you'll generate 100% more rage than you would if you had 0% crit,Haste is much the same but the two stats multiply the effectiveness of each other so if you had 100% crit and 100% haste you would generate 400% of the rage you would at 0% of both.


    Now calculating Rage expenditure is a little bit more complicated to workout. I'm going make some assumptions because; generally Arms follows a 4 GCD cycle of MS>WW>WW>WW, so the average RPS expenditure is going to be 30 rage per GCD, or 20 rage per second, which means with no crit/haste we can use an ability ever 3.6s. if we factor in that Arms will use CS 3 times a minute, this would be a saving of 1 RPS, and if we assume that we Rend every 15 seconds its a further saving of 1.3 rps. Storm bolt on CD is another 1 rps saved, IV on cd 0.666. so the minimum RPS in we'd need so far to be GCD locked is 16,that's almost twice what we generate, so nearly half of our GCDs (47%) will be empty.

    The New tier 3 Talents all serve to close the gap between how much we need and how much we spend. TfB adds 1RPS for every target with have Rend on, so on AoE particularly strong, but single target is marginal (though with sufficient Haste Crit could be enough). Sudden Death is unreliable, though should average out to a saving of 30 rage every 10 white swings, as such it should be 0.83 RPS, though it will scale upwards with haste. Slam has the most potential to help fill GCDs but frankly it's not enough. if we assume our rotation becomes MS>Slam>X>slam, where X is CS, Rend, Storm Bolt, IV, or WW or Ravager we're still 0.5rps from producing enough Rage. Of course this is a completely fixed rotation(so managing rage is a non-issue) and makes our tier 2, 3, 4, and 7 talents mandatory Choices. And this is rather a DPS loss, you wouldn't delay a CS by up to 6 seconds, and you wouldn't want to rend that often, you probably want to use Storm bolt inside a CS if possible and it usually isn't a good idea to use IV on CD. And this rotation really begs the question; what is the point of letting Slam stack to 2,. it worked much better when it stacked only once.

    Moving on Headlong Rush sounds great, I was really happy when they announced it. Granted the name is a bit bleh, I'd have preferred something like"Quick to Anger" but whatever. As we increase haste it lowers the GCD and this has the effect that it actually increase the amount of Rage that you need to perform the rotation, the the point that until you hit the 1 second GCD cap Haste is actually a net loss in RPS; whilst you generate a Higher RPS through more through white swings, you will now have even more empty GCDs. Unless you maintain certain ratio of Crit to haste, all haste does is increase your white swing damage and insert more empty GCDs between your abilities. Much like Prot pallies, where haste is a direct DPS increase, it doesn't actually lead to less empty GCDs, it just means the rotation happens quicker, which is fine if you only get an empty GCD every 15s or so and have a proc to help fill it (Grand Crusader). When every other GCD is empty, it's not quite so great and this is where prot pallies have a second advantage, almost all of their rotational abilities also have their CDs reduced by haste as well, unfortunately the poor arms warrior whose relying on things like storm bolt, or IV, or CS, or rend whose CDs aren't reduced by haste to fill those GCDs means that he gets proportionally less low cost GCDs per time period as he increases haste.



    For example at 0% haste you have 40 GCDs a minute, 10 of which are probably spent on MS, 3(and a bit) on rend, 3 on CS, 2 on IV and 2 stormbolt, leaving 20 GCDs to fill with Whirlwind. At 50% haste we now have 60 GCDs a minute, 15 of which go on MS, 3(and a bit) on rend, 3 on CS, 2 on IV and 2 stormbolt, leaving 35 GCDs to fill with Whirlwind.


    This is graph of roughly how much Crit we need to sustain to be GCD locked as we increase in haste. Notice how it's only once we past the 1 second GCD cap that we start to actually not rely on Crit near as much;




    The reason this works well for Protection Warriors and Paladins (both Ret and Prot) is that Those specs use their GCDs to build up resources, Arms uses it's GCDs to spend resources, and that's where the issue comes from. Prot, Prot, and Ret's fillers either don't have a cost or the cost is negligible (CS isn't limited by the mana cost). For those Specs it's the order of the GCDs that matter. With the Rework of Sudden Death, Arms is now about dumping as much rage in a CS as possible, that doesn't really play well with the fact that we have to keep ourselves to such a tight rage band; More than 40 risks capping out, less than 30 risks stalling out, and with so many Empty GCDs and such high costs on our Fillers we really are punished for using the mat the wrong time.

    It's also worthy of note that unlike Live prot pallies, where haste falls in value once you hit the 50% 1 second GCD threshold, Arms's value for haste sky rockets as you now are actually able to start filling more GCDs.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 07-17-2014 at 02:15 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Mathy:
    In response to the 10 Rage Slam rotation:
    You can simply macro /cancelaura into Slam and spam away. That just leaves WW as an AoE/emergency dump ability.

    For the rest:
    Thanks to Headlong rush, you gain 30 Rage every 2.4 GCDs, with crit chance of getting double.
    Excluding the 10 Rage Slam rotation, you will generally have enough empty GCDs that you can shift (parts of) them around to have 1-2 'used' GCDs after each white swing.

    That means your gameplay boils down to this:
    0. WAIT(!) for white swing to grant Rage
    1. MS > talents, if CS is not nearly off CD > Rend > IV/WW (keep 30 Rage for MS/CS)
    2. CS > above (spend it all)

    Waiting that 1 GCD with CS allows you to get in 2 white swings, which means not only more damage, but also that extra 30 Rage at the end you can spend on another Whirlwind for the extra damage. At 25% Haste (+lag) you also gain a major breakpoint here, allowing you to just fit in another MS in a CS window. (with the multistrikes coming in around 30% Haste)
    This shifts a lot of gameplay from ability mechanics to 'hidden' choices such as the Haste breakpoint, waiting for white swings and timing dead time around CDs and Rage income. This shift is opposite to the intended goals of making specs easier to understand. (especially without a swing timer addon)


    Feely:
    The current style of Arms gameplay feels
    a) very reactionary. (All ability uses are dependent on factors out of your control)
    b) boring. You are always waiting for Rage income and outside of the small effort of MS CD control, it's simply CDs > ragedump.

    I always considered Arms to be a cool headed Master of weaponry and controlling the flow of battle. Hence they were always aimed towards Battle Stance and not Berserker Stance, as Fury was before. This goes completely out the door with the current state, where you are, in essence, reacting to white swings.

    I would much prefer as Rage for Arms was considered more of a resource emulating the flow of battle (think towards combo points) than "RAWR MAD". If I were to have to redesign Arms, here is how I would approach it:
    • Rather than increase the Rage from white swings, keep Slam as a baseline ability that does low to medium damage and generates 10 Rage. This will make it feel as if you're trying to knock open your opponent's defenses, preparing for a large blow.
    • With this active Rage generation, keep Mortal Strike as it is. That means you can always generate the Rage for MS in between uses, regardless of white swings, and the Rage dump play will come from replacing Slam with an ability that uses up Rage. More importantly, you can actually DO something to pool Rage for burst windows.
    • Between Rend, Whirlwind/Execute and Ignite Weapon there should be enough Rage dump choices in your rotation to create enough interesting gameplay without becoming too complicated. CD talents add to this as a they become abilities that effectively replace Slam in your rotation (thus 'cost' a bit of Rage/damage) rather than just extra ways to fill up dead time.
      I could see Ignite Weapon replacing Rend though, keeping it on GCD and shifting the (boosted) over-time damage from target to player.
    • The current Slam talent could be replaced by several other options. Between the passive Rage from Rend and the free damage Execute procs, you could increase active Rage generation and add to rotation complexity with something like "Rather than always generating 10 Rage, Slam now gives a buff for 2s that allows the next Slam to generate 20 Rage." Or something like "Slam critical strikes have X% chance to grant Unyielding Strikes(*), reducing the Rage cost of your next Mortal Strike by Y". Heck, you could even put in Heroic Strike here!
    (*) Unyielding Strikes does not need be the final name for this effect.

    To me, this seems a far more interesting way to play, without necessarily introducing deadtime & white swing gaming.
    It would also solve the issues with Haste as Tengenstein has mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    [...]
    Haste also plays a part as it lowers the swing timer and it does this in the traditional way of base time divided by 1 plus Haste as a decimal;

    RPS = (30 / ( 3.6 / (1 + Haste))) x (1 +Crit)

    [...]
    For ease of reading, this formula is the same as

    RPS = (30 / 3.6) x (1 + Crit) x (1 + Haste)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  4. #4
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    It's pretty poor design if we need cancel aura macros to sort out our rotation. isn't that why they did away with the original incarnation of Inner Rage. I rather like that as prot even if it did require multiple macros to make it work nicely.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #5
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    Just when you think it couldn't be any worse...
    They made MS & WW cost 20 Rage, but you only get 21 Rage per white swing now.


    Resulting rotation:
    1. MS on CD
    2. CS on CD, Ravager right before every 3rd one
    3. CS window: MS + 3x WW (or 1-2 Executes), follow up with Dragon Roar (should still have Bloodbath up) and Rend
    4. Leap-Charge or Intervene-Charge once per CS rotation (WW once if Rage capping)
    5. repeat

    Following talents are mandatory:
    15: Juggernaut
    45: Taste for Blood, untill 700-750+ gear, then Sudden Death (requires enough Haste/Crit for Rage & Mastery for damage)
    60: Dragon Roar
    (75: Safeguard)
    90: Avatar if; used <20% in first hit in CS window, so it buffs the next window as well. Else: Bloodbath, macro'd into Ravager
    100: Ravager

    Following Glyphs are mandatory:
    Bull Rush
    Death From Above
    (Unending Rage)
    Subtle Defender
    but NOT: Colossus Smash, Watchful Eye

    Following macros are neigh-mandatory:
    Def Stance + Intervene
    Battle Stance + Charge

    Because gameplay choices are for casuals!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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  6. #6
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    TBH since SLam does ~80% of a whirlwinds damage, and with a cancel aura macro, for half the cost, take Slamglyph of CS and once you get to 26% crit (@ zero haste) you're actually able to GCD cap.


    Seriously fucking terrible.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  7. #7
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    And Fury ain't much better btw
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  8. #8
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    No doubt, but there's enough Fury fanboys i don't think my voice makes much difference. Arms seems overshadowed
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #9
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    For those not in beta atm, but follwing the updates:
    Yes, at this point Slam seems a mandatory talent, because there is SOOOOO much dead time that cast time is irrelevant, only Rage efficiency matters ... and a /cancelaura macro for Slam is the best option regardless of what current testing boss you chose.

    Personally, I am VERY concerned about this, and hope it gets sorted out in a mechanical way before 6.0 hits live, and I even managed to turn up the optimism to 11 and write the OMFGuide as if talent chioces were irrelevant, but unfortunately, they do NOT at this time. Feel free to post/tweet away about this, because (yet again) as an EU player, I have no direct link to developer communication except the massive spam that is Twitter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  10. #10
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    I've played with a bunch of ability combinations, in search of anything that remotely resembles a rotation. Even willing to accept a small dps loss in the process, with the sole intent of eliminating huge gaps. No dice.

    I'll try to stir up some trouble on twitter, on Monday.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  11. #11
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    Likewise I am spamming Twitter heavily.

    in the next build their's a huge discrepancy in how much crit is needed to GCD lock you, if you cancel out of Slam, you're GCD locked form the get go, if you cancel out of slam at 1 stack (or rotate MS>Slam>X>Slam) you're gcd locked at ~8-12% crit. if you always go to 2 stacks you're gonna need at least 40% crit. If you take TfB you'll want around 28% crit,and if you take SD you'll need 37%.


    Arms is so fucking screwed. Slam hits way too hard, Stormbolt or a cancel aura macro is practically mandatory, and if you go above 40 rage you risk capping out if your white swing crits.


    #showtooltip slam
    /cancelaura slam
    /cast slam
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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