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Thread: Why is dodge/parry preferred over haste?

  1. #21
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    The problem is that Vengeance is sort off fulfilling two roles, originally it was there so that tanks could hold aggro whilst stacking non-dps stats like stamina/mastery against DPS who where stacking DPS stats. However in MoP they changed it so that it was the way for a lot of Tank mitigations to scale with boss damage, and at the same time gave ALL takes either a way to get survivability out of DPS stats (Druids, Monks, Paladins) or get DPS out of tanking stats (Warriors & DKs).

    Which allows us to double dip but thankfully they seem pretty resolved to fix up with Vengeance becoming Resolve, and all tanks moving to the survivability for DPS stats model
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  2. #22
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    I hope they do do it right this time. While the increased tank dps helps kill bosses faster, it is a burden on healing. I note the difference between our Pally and our Bear. Our Bear favors survivability and requires less focus from me, our Pally when he uses Seal of Insight is fine, but you can tell when he's in dps mode he becomes very spikey. As a result my attention stays on him with rarely a break for minding to the raid.

  3. #23
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    Does SoT really contribute that much DPS? i thought it had an 80% nerf for prot?
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  4. #24
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    Our Prot Pally seems to think it does. I don't really know for sure.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Our Pally tank drives me nuts since he only uses Seal of Insight if we lose a healer during a fight.
    See, on my pally if we're on a boss that I don't feel like I would normally need SoI for survival, instead of shooting for a 5% dps increase from POS SoT I just tell my healers they're not allowed to cast a heal on me unless I dip to 40% health. Getting more dps is easy, getting over 80% of your healing taken as self heals takes skill.
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregasaurous View Post
    See, on my pally if we're on a boss that I don't feel like I would normally need SoI for survival, instead of shooting for a 5% dps increase from POS SoT I just tell my healers they're not allowed to cast a heal on me unless I dip to 40% health. Getting more dps is easy, getting over 80% of your healing taken as self heals takes skill.
    Ironically it is the fights where I take bugger all damage that I need the most external healing on (except for Paragons, but that is a stupid fight anyway). It is the fights like Malkorok, Thok, Siegecrafter that I require next to no healing on.

    Eternal Flame AP scaling is fucked up

    Guess it helps when Seal of Insight is healing me on every melee swing and attack for about 150-200k too ^.^

  7. #27
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    Definitely Paladin self-healing is out-scaling damage intake at higher levels of Vengeance.
    Mostly this is because Vengeance is based on unmitigated damage, which means AP-based self-healing pretty much gets magnified by any damage reduction and mitigation you have.

    If they made Vengeance scale from actual damage (pre-absorb) then Paladins wouldn't be so OP right now solo tanking stuff.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Does SoT really contribute that much DPS? i thought it had an 80% nerf for prot?
    And it's based on weapon damage. If I recall correctly from the few times I've actually used it to see if it could make any difference in my damage output on a fight where I was bored off my ass just surviving (H-sha), it really didn't make much difference. In fact it might have done less damage than the Flurry of Xzun procs.

    *edit* I can't dig up any of the logs where I was using it, they're over 2 months old and expired on WoL.
    Last edited by Gregasaurous; 05-23-2014 at 01:10 AM.
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  9. #29
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  10. #30
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    Theotherone -

    I'd be interested to know what you mean when you say your bear tank is favoring survivability -- what are they doing via reforges and gemming? I am, according to several independent raid groups spanning a sample size of 15 healers, the least squishy tank they heal, versus four DKs, two bears, two paladins, one warrior, and three monks, despite being heavy crit/high incidental haste build and reforging out of Mastery. Granted, I've got Savage Defense on muscle memory at this point, so my uptime is in the 70% range on a good day, and I shoulder the load of my own healing to the point that there have been fights where I outheal my healers at the same time while we've been gearing up fresh healers.

    On the other hand, I still see bear tanks in LFR and Flex where their meters show an SD uptime of 12% or less (probably from tier procs) and a FR of near zero. And lots and lots of Maul.

    -Tielyn

  11. #31
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    I think given the context he means rotationally. Since as far as i know bears stacking mastery are bad anyway..... err, sub optimal. He's saying that his bear is using rage on defenses as apposed to Maul**(?) spamming. Anyway, as you pointed out in the later part of your post, you can stack all the correct stats you want, you still have to push the right buttons to not suck.
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    Theotherone -

    I'd be interested to know what you mean when you say your bear tank is favoring survivability -- what are they doing via reforges and gemming? I am, according to several independent raid groups spanning a sample size of 15 healers, the least squishy tank they heal, versus four DKs, two bears, two paladins, one warrior, and three monks, despite being heavy crit/high incidental haste build and reforging out of Mastery. Granted, I've got Savage Defense on muscle memory at this point, so my uptime is in the 70% range on a good day, and I shoulder the load of my own healing to the point that there have been fights where I outheal my healers at the same time while we've been gearing up fresh healers.

    On the other hand, I still see bear tanks in LFR and Flex where their meters show an SD uptime of 12% or less (probably from tier procs) and a FR of near zero. And lots and lots of Maul.

    -Tielyn
    Sorry haven't checked forums in a while. Our bear favors Crit; I have not played my bear at all this xpac, other than to level, so I don't really know the stat priorities, but I do see her cool down usage. Compared to our Pally she is a joy to heal, really smooth, not a lot of "oh Shit" moments with her. Our Pally just loves Seal of Truth and he is spiky as shit, until he decides to focus on self healing then he smooths out a lot.

    My own opinion on tanks is that a well played DK and bear are the easiest to heal, then Pallys and then Warriors. Monks, I think have a lot of potential to be good, but I've only really healed ones that are in the learning phase.

  13. #33
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    Warriors should be a piece of piss to heal.
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  14. #34
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    A well played Paladin requires fuck all healing, especially in Heroic content.
    Warriors & DKs are right under there, I haven't healed the rest enough to really give an opinion, except that I find Monks less predictable, mostly because their mechanics like Shuffle & Guard
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  15. #35
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    I maintain that most Monks are played wrong (granted a lot of other specs are played wrong too). With monks it's easy to either spend too much chi on BoK and have shuffle, and not purify enough, or let shuffle fall off and take it all to the face. whereas the ideal spt is to never let shuffle fall off, but purify as many hits as possible, whilst having enough Chi/energy left so that if you do drop low, you can instantly purify and guard, and doing that requires a lot of haste.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #36
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    With "Active Mitigation" being a thing, if you as a healer feel that one class is drastically harder to heal than another, 99% of the time it's because the person playing it has their head firmly planted up their own ass. Tank balance is very close right now as far as potential. The skill caps vary quite a bit though. Some of the rotations feel very different as well. So, while in my case I might find playing my Pally with it's .998 second GCD isn't that hard and is in fact quite enjoyable; that doesn't mean my co-tank who is far better than I am at playing a Blood DK but can't stand the pally rotation is any better or worse.
    There are still certain classes though that will have niche fights where they're just stupidly strong. IE, on H-Sha, which can be a bit healing intensive for 2 healers on 10 man during certain parts, having a Prot Paladin that requires zero external targeted healing can be quite helpful. Whereas while a Warrior is certainly not a worse tank class, they don't have steady self heals and would require some attention from time to time. (On a side note I'm now wondering how long I could just sit in Second Wind on Sha on my War....)
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

  17. #37
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    Probably quite some time, Sha's not really got much damage output. Juggernaught would be a better example for an intense 2-heal fight.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Probably quite some time, Sha's not really got much damage output. Juggernaught would be a better example for an intense 2-heal fight.
    Haven't ever 2 healed it, had the dps to 3 heal which makes it pretty faceroll.
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Probably quite some time, Sha's not really got much damage output. Juggernaught would be a better example for an intense 2-heal fight.
    Thok is an intense fight if you 2-heal it

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