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Thread: Why is dodge/parry preferred over haste?

  1. #1
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    Why is dodge/parry preferred over haste?

    I have gotten into a discussion with a friend about which stat to prefer for Blood Death Knight Tanking.

    He argues Haste gives more overall DPS, provides runes quicker which in turn gives runic power more often to use on rune strike to trigger your Rune Regen tier, lets you have death strike faster which in turn provides more overall mitigation.

    I argue Parry and Dodge provide more overall damage mitigation through actually avoiding large boss swings and provides the bonus of Scent of Blood which in turn increases the overall size of the blood shield while also providing bigger chunks of runic power to spend on your rune regen tier, also making it last longer before it is punched through.

    I can't actually bring up any numbers after searching for days to support this and my friend remains unconvinced that dodge/parry actually provides more overall mitigation.

    I am not sure on the damage output argument.
    Last edited by Kerex; 05-14-2014 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    This is Tengulf, my little DK. and I'm going to shove her into simcraft and generate some data to answer your questions, now i'm not particularly hot on DK maths so I'm leaving her APL as the default one and have her face the T16N10 boss, since hopefully that will provide an adequate compromise between hitting her too hard (and thus favouring raw Survival) and wet noodling her (which would over estimate the value of DPS stats). The results are only as accurate as the boss model and APL model your situation.

    With her default stats (heavy mastery) she gets;
    286725 dps, 109023 dtps, 182439 hps (98990 aps), 140.1k TMI, 59.05% BS uptime (335k), 11.5RPS

    if we then where to swap 10k mastery into Parry she gets;
    323600 dps, 121697 dtps, 151663 hps (61182 aps), 150.2k TMI, 44.13% BS uptime(302K), 12RPS

    and then if we where to swap 10k mastery into haste instead
    311504 dps, 136170 dtps, 170030 hps (71960 aps), 152.2k TMI, 43. 11. BS uptime(305k), 11.3RPS

    25k iterations of each.

    Now according to these results you can see that there's not much difference between Haste and Parry, Haste takes more damage, but counters that with more self-healing,but overall is slightly spikier and about 4% behind on DPS. Mastery, of course, is quite behind on DPS, but minimises Damage taken, TMI, whilst maximising self healing an Blood shield uptime.

    so why did haste perform so poorly?

    Firstly, the number of Deathstrikes is not really important, the timing of them is important, so whilst haste does increase the number of deathstrikes, deathstriking just to keep runes rolling doesn't really increase survivability.

    Secondly, Parry haste, a mostly forgotten mechanic, when you parry an attack the swing time on your next white swing is reduced by 40%, this reduction cannot reduce swing time below 20% of the original swing time. tis ois why parry is preferable to dodge for DKs, regardless of diminishing returns. It allows you to double dip scent of blood stacks on a parry, since not only do you get a stack for the parry, but you accelerate your next stack melee hit

    Thirdly, Most deathknights do not need that much haste to GCD cap, in the mastery build i had 4% waiting time, in the parry build only 2%, the haste build had negligible waiting time. Once GCD locked you aren't gaining that much since you're now time limited, an increase in DS means less time for everything else, so whislt you might have more RP to dump, it means you have less time for everything else; you're going to run into situations where you're RP capped and you have a rune pair recharged, do you DS and waste up to 20 runic power? or do you RS and leave your runes not recharging for a full second? what if you have a crimson scourge proc at that time? do you risk clipping it? whatever you do you're gonna end up wasting something.

    So why is haste so popular? taunt swaps. almost all the reasons haste sucks go away, or are largely diminished when you're not actually tanking anything, if you're not getting hit you don't get riposte, which decimates parry DPS value, you don't get and stacks of SoB from parrying, nor do you get parry hasted. Parrys value is based on you getting attacked if you're not being attacked parry is worthless.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 05-15-2014 at 05:54 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Ah, thank you for the clarification there.

    So to sum up, Haste's value increases greatly while you are not actively tanking something because of the static benefit it provides while if you are actively tanking take for example the Iron Juggernaut fight, while Dodge/Parry's value goes up in terms of effective dps, a loss in DTPS and a couple other areas but has the catch of being only effective while you are being hit by something say for when you solo tank a fight or there is a continuous stream of adds such as in Spoils.

    I think I missed it, but is there an effective difference in the resource generation of each build that could contribute to overall mitigation?

  4. #4
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    yes, you can see that in RPS (runic power/sec I think) and your BS uptime. Parry has better RPS and BS uptime (while actively tanking something) than haste does. If I'm reading his results correctly.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  5. #5
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    Actually, while I've got you, what does the APS and TMI indicate in his results?

    I'm fairly new to the forums here so, when it comes to the nitty gritty I could use a brush up or two lol.

  6. #6
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    aps I think is absorbs per second function of the hps or heals per second that you do to yourself.TMI stands for Theck's Mitigation Index, there's a really prominent theory crafter named Theck and he's a physicist IRL and they have a tendency to name things after themselves... anyways, he came up with a statistical analysis number for how "squishy" someone is to heal. The lower the number, the easier they are to heal. So low TMI is good. DKs are pretty absurdly spiky atm, which is probably why Teng goes mastery on his DK to get his TMI numbers down as low as possible. Idk if the index is uniform for all classes but that TMI number is way way lower for warriors (in any gearing setup) than DKs right now (apparently).
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  7. #7
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    TMI is the Theck-Meloree index, it's essentially a measure of how spiky you are to heal.


    EDIT: TMI is uniform across all classes, its pretty good becuase you can approximate it to spike damage, your TMI is k is equivalent to the amount of healing you'd need in window (standard is 6 second window), so a TMI of 150K would mean that your healers should be prepared for you to take 150% of your health pool over 6 seconds on average.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 05-15-2014 at 05:10 PM.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    Oh Theck-Meloree index? Huh... I thought the M stood for mitigation... LEARN SOMETHIN' NEW EVERY DAY!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  9. #9
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    I have heard of Theck's work and have read several of his articles. I didn't know about the index though lol.

    Thank you guys for the help and I will show this thread to my friend in hopes he relaxes his adamant stance on haste for Blood DK's.

  10. #10
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    TMI is a statistical representation of the size of a 6 second damage spike. The average TMI is the average damage taken during a 6 second burst window (tanks don't trickle down to death, they tend to die in a short period of time).

    An average TMI of 100k means that on average you take 100% of your life during any 6 second window (i.e. you'd be dead if you didn't get any healing).

  11. #11
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    So DK's take approximately 150% of their life in a 6 second window as damage.

    I couldn't hope to play that spiky, too used to playing my Warrior lol.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerex View Post
    So DK's take approximately 150% of their life in a 6 second window as damage.

    I couldn't hope to play that spiky, too used to playing my Warrior lol.
    No, Teng's DK takes that much damage against that simulated boss. Doesn't mean that another DK with better gear won't take less damage.

  13. #13
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    I see , thank you for the clarification.

  14. #14
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    Keep in Mind my DK is only 548ilvl and the standard boss models melee hits tend to reflect the harder hitting bosses of a tier (so T16N10 hits about as hard as Garrosh does on 10 man normal). and that a 130k average TMI is not the same as averaging 130% of your health every 6 seconds. Tengulf has 1.05m health fully buffed, so taking 150% of her health every six second would mean a DTPS of ~250k. As we can see from my earlier results she's only averaging 109k dtps, a mere 60% of her health ever six seconds. What TMI really means is that when I get spiked the spikes will be approximate that large, and generally you aren't (or shouldn't be) getting spikes all the time.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  15. #15
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    Yeah, if you are getting spike events all the time you are either playing REALLY badly or you are severely undergeared.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Oh Theck-Meloree index? Huh... I thought the M stood for mitigation... LEARN SOMETHIN' NEW EVERY DAY!
    Clearly TMI stands for Tank Mushiness Indicator
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Clearly TMI stands for Tank Mushiness Indicator
    A pretty close approximation, tbh

  18. #18
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    My main these days is a Holy Pally and I can say as a healer, I don't really appreciate tanks that look to maximize dps at the expense of survivability. Hence my preference on my Blood DK is mastery, mastery and when I have enough mastery, I add a little more. I don't care for avoidance tanks, spike damage sucks to heal especially in Heroic mode these days since the spikes we're looking at are on the order of 1.5million and up. Our Pally tank drives me nuts since he only uses Seal of Insight if we lose a healer during a fight. Worst thing Blizz ever did was make Vengeance so OP that tanks can top the dps meters. Makes for a kinds of funky gemming and gearing at the expense of survivability.

  19. #19
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    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...pe=damage-done

    what's that you say about tanks and damage meters?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  20. #20
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    I know, Vengence is just sick; not only for damage but for Prot Pally healing, 500k+ Eternal Flame crits. On some of our H Thok pulls (the present bane of my life, that fight sucks to heal) our Prot Pally is 400K+ dps.

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