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Thread: Back again with more Prot War vs Bear DPS questions

  1. #1
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    Back again with more Prot War vs Bear DPS questions

    Before I start I want to thank the guys that gave me advice about this topic on my last thread.

    The issue that I had was that I was tanking with a Bear tank that had way higher gear than me and I was unable to get close to her on the DPS charts. Since then I've geared up to be within 3 points of her - she is 570 and I am 567. Even though I've closed the gap I can't come close to competing with her in DPS and threat. I've linked a log from our last raid and I took on board everything that Tengenstein said (about my previous post) and tried to improve. I've had a good jump in DPS but I still can't compete with her. Am I smashing my head against a brick wall or is there a black and white discrepancy between the dps put out by a bear and a prot warrior?

    Logs http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/wdzrqrq1i6d1qwf7/
    Armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Atighe/simple

    Our team is progressing through heroics at the moment, 3/14 (woot for us) and there aren't any problems with the team per se but I can't help but feel like a third wheel as I am basically acting as a terrible dps until the boss fights. In situations where there are groups of mobs I will start tanking some of them and she will taunt them off of me because I assume it's easier to have all the aggro than track which mobs are loose and which are on the dps. If we both charge the same group of mobs I can get the initial aggro but gradually she will generate threat and take that aggro off of me. As soon as that happens and my vengeance starts to drop I lose threat and then I can't catch up without taunting.

    I've been using intervene to get some damage and to try to keep up vengeance on some fights but it's not really worth it on the trash mobs as they go down so fast and the last thing anyone wants is for me to separate my mobs from the pack (which is the only way that I can come up with to stop losing threat) as we would lose a lot of dps due to lost cleave strikes.

    Hopefully someone has the time to respond.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
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    Sounds/looks like she's just being a Taunt/DPS whore. There's very little you can do about that without becoming one yourself. perhaps just go Deeps for trash, or have a cup of tea whilst she has her fun.
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    If you both are tanking normally and just cleaving/AoEing eachothers adds, you should be able to hold two or three mobs on your own. Eventually the one with initial aggro will have slightly higher Vengeance, getting more aggro, thus more Vengeance and so on, but even with that, Swipe & Trash should not be able to steal you focusing one or two targets.

    If she's taunting everything, it's probably just meter whoring and either tell her she's not their to boost her ego and she's actually slowing the raid down (2 tanks with 3 mobs each = more Veng than 1 with all of em) or just let her have her fun and disregard any damage meters from trash (or counter with meters for damage taken or Taunt uptime ).
    If you REALLY want to show her how annoying it is, Vigilance + mouse-over Taunt macro will allow you to steal every mobs from her you want, without the obviousness of Mocking Banner.
    Of course, if she just taunts anything that is not attacking her, she needs to L2P, because if a DPS DOES pull aggro, she's shit out of luck as her taunt is on CD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  4. #4
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    If a tank insists on tanking ALL THE THINGS on trash, I let them. Saves me money on repairing my shield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    If a tank insists on tanking ALL THE THINGS on trash, I let them. Saves me money on repairing my shield.
    I love that idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigher View Post
    In situations where there are groups of mobs I will start tanking some of them and she will taunt them off of me because I assume it's easier to have all the aggro than track which mobs are loose and which are on the dps.
    This is why raid members with threat get a red outline to their raid-frame, and any tank worth half their weight in dirt (I hear dirt is expensive in Antarctica) knows how to glance at their raid frames if they don't have aggro on everything to make sure it's not on somebody it shouldn't be.
    So yeah, more likely she's just vengeance whoring it up. Which as others have explained there are certain ups and downs to that. I would add though that the biggest reason NOT to do that is that if for some reason a tank goes down on trash (healer alt tabbs/goes to get a drink, dps go lazy-mode and ignore interruptible casts) you now have a dead tank and another tank with no vengeance or threat to speak of. And GG instead of you farming trash, trash is farming you. The likely-hood of that situation is also rather dependent on your raid atmosphere though, so it may just be a non-issue.
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

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    Thanks guys. What you've said basically confirms that I already suspected. I checked through the logs very carefully and when we are on a boss with a simple taunt mechanic our and our DPS should be similar the difference is only 5 - 10% instead of 30 - 40% on trash. At the end of the day the important thing is bosses not trash. I'm going to hold my tongue as the bear has been tanking with our raid team for over a year and I've only been there for around 2 months. The root of my question still stands though should bears be a little higher on DPS in a straight fight than Prot wars?

    There's a lot of talk about ranking in our team which I don't really care about. All that I'm interested in is being a good tank getting all the interrupts that I can and keeping people alive. The concerns about dps are based on an underlying concern that when our two ten man raiding teams merge in WoD there will only be two spots for tanks and I don't want to be overlooked because of a DPS difference. I'm going to talk to the healers and see who is easier to heal during a lot of these fights. I checked our Galakras fight and I absorbed a massive amount which has to help them out and should count for a lot in progression. Noone seems dissatisfied with the performance of the tank team in our raid but I'm a natural minmaxer and I want to ensure that I am doing all I can.

    Gregasauras - We have a good heals team and she doesn't die to trash very often and normally when she does I drop a baner immediately and there are no issues.Something you said is worrying me though, I must be using the wrong UI because there is no differentiation on my raid bars between a mob that is aggroed on a tank and a mob that is aggroed on a healer or DPS. It just shows green if the mob is on me and red if it's on someone else. Is there a UI that can tell the difference because if there is i want it and I will get the bear to install it aswell. That was the main reason that I didn't get too annoyed with the situation because on something like Galakras where there are loads of mobs and interrupts to keep an eye on it's easier for her to assume that if it's not on her it's on someone it shouldn't be and taunt it back to her.

    Airowird - I don't know how to do a report of dps as opposed to taunt up time. I am only getting used to World of logs now and I've never really used it as a resource before this raid team. I don't really understand how to make queries yet but I will look into that. I got really annoyed with it last week and did the vengeance taunt trick which was funny but again it's got a 2min (?) cooldown so doesn't help all that much. (I don't have it macroed to mouse over and never even thought about that. I have to get that now, that's a great idea, thanks)

    There is a little bit of history too which I should fill in here. The raid team took me on when they were all fully BIS normal and I was still all flex gear and I started tanking with her when I could get 2 - 3 hit by trash. I've only just realised that she is used to holding all the mobs to make sure i don't and maybe all I need is to talk to her about it now that our gear is closer to being the same.



    As usual, tankspot to the rescue. The community here has been amazing since Wrath and I appreciate all your help.

  8. #8
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    The red border is part of the default UI raid frames. as is showing the target of your target. The addon WhoTaunted whislt out of date is great for seeing when other tanks (or non-tanks) use taunts.

    As to who should be slightly ahead on DPS Bears or Warriors. it's all very variable, as Mastery stacked prot warrior will be quite far behind a crit stacking maul spamming druid. Raid bots is down for me ATM, so you can't really see the variability between the two on any given fight but a quick and dirty sim of both of you (I'm not insinuating that either you use, or should be using the default action priority lists) puts her at about 108% of your DPS on a single target.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    The difference is 13% on Galakras and I know that I have some improving to do on my rotation so that sounds correct and sets my mind at ease. She also always pulls the boss first which means that she normally gets more uptime on the boss. I do the tower and am normally trying to get down to the level with the boss while she starts to tank him.

    I am going to have to learn how to Sim. It's another thing that I haven't gotten around to yet.

    Thank you all for your input.

    I will install the whotaunted addon. Some monkey in the raid has a habit of taunting the trash that cleave before malkorok so that they can gank one of the other raid members and I'd like to know who it is so that I can return the favour on the big mob before paragons (that's one place where the tanks get to have some fun - A well timed taunt on one of the melee classes gets vent going gangbusters).

  10. #10
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    Omen3, also out of date works fine too, very good for seeing whats actually happening with the threat tables in regards to tricks, MDs, fades, etc.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
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    I just use the Skada threat module. Works perfectly well.

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    I will check out the Skada module. I already run omen but If i can get rid of it in favour of Skada that would be good. One less add on to deal with.

  13. #13
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    I am not sure if it's part of the default Skada, (might be part of Skada - Healing & Absorbs extra plugin), but check Healing Required meters.
    They will show how much heals you needed from exterior sources. Basicly it's your damage taken minus all self-heals & absorbs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigher View Post
    I must be using the wrong UI because there is no differentiation on my raid bars between a mob that is aggroed on a tank and a mob that is aggroed on a healer or DPS. It just shows green if the mob is on me and red if it's on someone else.
    As Teng said I was just referring to the red outline a players box gets on the party frames if they have aggro on something, which is in the default Blizzard ui. The point was that: Say you don't have aggro on everything in a pack, you glance at your party frame and see that the only other person with threat is the co-tank. Therefor you don't need to worry about spamming taunts or tabbing around checking target-of-target to see which mob isn't glued to a tank.

    As to the green/red for "have aggro/don't have aggro" I seem to recall once seeing a plugin for Tidyplates that would keep a nameplate green if you did NOT have aggro on a mob but it was targeting somebody who was spec'd tank. I think it was back in Cata, and if I recall correctly it was a bit twitchy and a pretty decent chunk of cpu as far as addon's go. There might be a functionality of it in Tidyplates by default now, or you might not be able to get it at all anymore. I'm not entirely sure. It's been quite a while since I really played with Tidyplates.


    And Airo, I'm pretty sure "external healing required" is a plugin for skada, and not default. Though it is an incredibly useful tool for self analyzing. Especially if you play a Prot Pally.....
    Really, I don't know a lot about hunters and the only good advice I can give is: TURN PET TAUNT OFF! ~Aggathon

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    Yeah, I used to use it to compare our pala tank vs the DK or warrior he got teamed with, because his total healing done is just so high, it's the only way to compare really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  16. #16
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    Gregasaurous thanks for the info. I'm using elvui and I don't recall seeing the plates having a red marker around them if someone has threat if they are not a tank. I will look into that on the next dungeon I tank. I have to get some macros sorted out and I will upgrade my intervene to a mouse over macro if the plates work like that.

  17. #17
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    Hey Tigher
    Elvui will show you if you have aggro as a tank all the plates will be green if you hava aggro red if you dont orange if you are about too loose aggro.
    When it comes to gettin aggro on adds that the druid is starting on i havent looked at your build but when i tank on my warrior i have deep wounds thunderclap and the blood thingy on the last tier to grab my part. Usually i tank not the towers i do the adds down there and usually the tower tank grabs gala first thats how we do it anyways.
    On my druid i use crit build like most druids do these days and i also use the dps legend cloak on most fights.
    That is proccing quite alot and on garrosh for example while tankin garrosh and off tank takes adds and brings them to garrosh i usually get aggro from all so i would not worry much about it.
    But if she is taunting like many ppl have written then i would drag my adds abit away from her so it will be obvious that she is taunting.

    Well that is my 2c
    regards JR

  18. #18
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    @Jonny

    I'm so embarassed about this but I noticed the red line around the characters that have aggro on the ELvui frames for the first time after Gregasaurous mentioned it. I don't know how i haven't noticed that before. I don't really look very carefully at raid frames. I've programmed myself that once i notice out of the corner of my eye that the raid is dropping HP i call out for whether heals need a demo banner or Rallying cry. I'm now trying to train myself to take more notice of it.

    Something funny happened to me last night though; the equipment buttons broke for some reason (supposedly the guys on my raid reckon this happens regularly but it's never happened to me) and I thought I had my tank set on because I could see my sword and board but I was actually wearing all my fury gear with just the shield and one hander from my prot set. I knew something was up from the first pull, I started off with my usual charge, leap, TC for the adds and stripped 3 of the 5 off her immediately, i then proceeded to the last additional one off her too (apart from her target) without even single targetting it. This happened for the rest of the fight. The roles were completely reversed and I couldn't believe the difference. My DPS shot through the roof and i went from 150 - 160K to 250 - 280K on that fight. The additional vengeance from the extra mobs really made a difference.

    Anyway that's not why I tank and even though it was fun having all the threat and vengeance for a while I reverted to my avoidance build after that. As an aside though even though I was in my crit gear the healers still think it's easier to heal me in that gear and I'm now considering building up a second crit set for farming some of the bosses with lots of adds.

    @Airowird

    I've done the vigilance thing a few times now but it doesn't really beat home the message because of the length of the cooldown. It did get a startled response though when taunts were going out with no cooldown at the start. I've really stopped worrying about it now though following the comment "less repairs on my shield" i've taken it all in context and started looking at only the boss fights where things are a lot more even with respect to time on boss and the like.

  19. #19
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    Your bear is definitely trying to hog the meters at least implicitly, if not explicitly. I'm looking at your Galakras kill, and I see a ton of Mauls being cast (100 in a 10 minute fight with a 3s cooldown is pretty much whenever it's up, unless they've got the cleave glyph, but even then, that's a lot considering the number of pauses between waves on ) versus almost no Savage Defense (4%). Combined with the DPS cloak, and the rogue is Tricksing her, AND the hunter is Misdirecting her, that's a big hill for you to climb to outthreat her.

    Try having the rogue and hunter do their thing to you instead of her and see if it makes a difference.

  20. #20
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    Looking deeper into your logs, I see that your bear is dying before you at multiple points, which isn't surprising since they're not doing much to avoid taking damage as Frenzied Regen / Maul damage reduction. Like on the Siegecrafter Blackfuse fight, she dies with -3- stacks of the Electrostatic Discharge debuff on her, because she's not trying to actively dodge the attacks from the boss nor did she have Barkskin up at any point during the fight.

    Meanwhile you went 3 and 4 stacks without dying to the same attacks and prevented significantly more damage to yourself while doing it. IMHO, when doing heroics, you really really need to do your job to stay alive, and she's not doing it right if she's avoiding less than 20% of the incoming melee attacks to your 44% -and- 14% block on top of that.

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