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Thread: Raid Leads: How do you tell when your group doesn't have the heals or DPS?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
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    Raid Leads: How do you tell when your group doesn't have the heals or DPS?

    Just thinking out loud after a night of bashing our heads against the wall on Garrosh with an allied guild.

    Arguably, the most obvious place to see when your group doesn't have the DPS to kill something is the enrage timer. Norushen definitely fits the bill.

    Healing is harder - healers don't have concrete number sticks to measure by, like DPS, since a good group takes less damage, healers can step on each other's heals, etc. Similar to the enrage timer, you only know the healers aren't good enough when the AoE raid damage eats the group despite all of the healers being upright.

    But one of the things that always kinda bugged me is that there are very rarely any strats out there that say 'you should have the boss at X percent by this point,' or 'if your healers are OOM by this point, you're not going to make it.'

    Harder still is when your group makes a lot of progress and gets beyond the first or second waves of whatever cycle the boss is in, but then ramp up mechanics chomp the raid late in the fight (Megaera for example). It puts your group in the position of 'do we drop down to 2 heals when we've been running 3' or 'can we one tank this?' in order to squeeze out the extra DPS. Versus 'maybe we shouldn't extend and just restart to get people more gear even though we have the early bosses on farm.'

    As a raid lead, we always have to look at how the fight is unfolding, and there's that sometimes ugly judgement call of 'we don't have the heals/dps for this' and having to shut down the raid early.

    An example our group used was when we were doing the Zandalari Elders fight. If we didn't have Sul dead by the Sandstorm phase, it was a wipe, so since we had three Empowered phases to do it in, it was easy to put some benchmarks on how far down he was during the fight. Garrosh is a little harder to judge - does your group have to get him to Phase 4 before the third intermission, or no? If you lose a DPS, do you wipe it on the spot or do you keep going?

    I guess my question is, 'what are your thought processes in making the 'keep pushing/give up' kinda choices during progression?'

    -Tielyn

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    When you keep hitting the same point and dying.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    I guess my question is, 'what are your thought processes in making the 'keep pushing/give up' kinda choices during progression?'
    I guess I don't see the value in giving up.

    If your strategy is ending up with you dying in the same place over and over again then you need to look at your strategy. People aren't going to throw a switch and start being better at DPS or healing (though sometimes you can encourage/embarrass a little more out of them), so you need to look for ways to compensate (make sure your hybrids are blowing healing CDs when you hit that hard part, or making sure that people are all using defensive CDs properly or changing up how you position things so that swapping/cleaving is easier). Just giving up is...why would you do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    2,957
    Sometimes it's just beyond people Ion. Interrupts, moving out of stuff, swapping to adds, dispelling. Indeed people aren't going to magically get better, and sometimes you just can't compensate, at some point, if enough people suck balls, they just can't get anymore bosses down. why waste 2-3 hours banging your head against a wall.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    235
    Fatigue is the big one. People get demoralized and sloppy after awhile and for some folks raid runs right up to midnight (and beyond if we give it a couple more attempts). Giving them a 10 minute break only helps for the next couple of attempts, and sometimes not even then. We have had raid nights where we do a lot of 'two steps forward, one step back' where we'll do really good during one attempt, but then the next two fall apart quickly.

    Being able to extend raid lockouts is a blessing and a curse, too. Our guild and our allied guild both tried to spend a chunk of time on end-tier bosses after passing the roadblock bosses leading up to them once, because they wanted to 'take the shot' at finishing the instance, but as a result were lacking the critical gear that comes from the bosses before it.

    Also, the nature of the game means that if one of your heavier geared regulars goes missing, will the replacement / sub fill the same niche as well?

    Last nights' raid is a prime example. Our GM (our #3 DPS) had to work that night. Our raid lead and #2 DPS had to work that night. Our main resto druid healer's router blew up on Wednesday. So we had two replacement healers (one of them being our normal other MT), one healer and one tank borrowed from our allied guild, and two DPS we pulled from our non-raiding core, paired up with our priest healer, me, our #6 DPS and our #1 DPS, and a guy who changes his gems/reforges every other week (and pulls an average 135K despite having a full 4 set T16), usually to bad results.

    ...and we were doing Thok, which we've only killed four times. Going from a fight that normally can be done with two heavy heals that complement (priest/druid) to three priests (2 holy, 1 disc), with one of the DPS being a lesser geared shadow priest struggling to stay above 100K while getting continuously eaten by Thok, one of them being a wildcard DPS, we were getting to 85% by the first Blood Frenzy, 62% by the second, and 40% by the third. That reads like a 'not enough DPS' recipe there, where normally we're at 75%, 40% and 25% and kill the boss during the third cage round. By the 6th try the one regular healer was saying we didn't have it, and I was inclined to agree with him; but being the raid leader for the day and having 45 minutes left in the raid I said, "Give it a couple of more tries. We'll blow mini hero first (we normally use it after the third cage, and our mage was also absent) and see if it makes a difference."

    The first attempt was a mulligan as a melee ran the wrong way and ran Thok over three people. The second was the 'final' attempt call... and we got it down just barely, with only me left alive and fighting with the cage guard on the 'no cages left' phase -- the holy priest and warlock killed Thok with their dots -after- they died, and I died to DoT damage around 10 seconds after the boss went down.

    We got lucky.

    The only reason we didn't give up earlier despite 'everyone knowing we didn't have the DPS and not willing to admit it out loud' was that I already knew this might be our only raid night this week. We went with a lockout instead of starting fresh because most of the folks in the raid already have the stuff off the early bosses and see the front six as a waste of time.

    We only got the raid off the ground in the first place because we have a damned good working relationship with our allied guild and we loan/borrow people because our raid times don't conflict. So we were working with a less-than-optimal raid loadout, on a fight that had a definite gear/DPS check -- I doubt this would have been possible pre-nerf, for example.

    According to WoL, the median DPS for a Thok kill is 1.47 million DPS. We were at 1.09 million on the kill, so technically we had no business being there. With some of our heaviest raiders no longer readily available, we're in a rebuilding phase in a lot of ways, and running alts sometimes just to keep people coming back.

    But it's tough getting new prospective members to join the guild when we advertise as a 14/14 guild and then get stuck on Nazgrim or Dark Shamans, and we still don't have Blackfuse on farm yet.

    Supposedly things will be better once the new expansion hits and people come back, but the key is surviving until then. :P

    -T.

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