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Thread: Changes That Crippled WoW

  1. #1
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    Changes That Crippled WoW

    Watching a bunch of DDGuides Youtube videos, mainly the ranking list just reminded me so much of how far WoW has come and how old the game is. That and the videos tend to cover mistakes or simple irreversible changes the changed the game forever.

    While WoW is still a great game and I'm probably returning for WoD, I just wanted to get a few things off my chest on what I personally think crippled the game in the long run in each Expansion that Blizzard might be able to avoid in the future. I didn't play MoP so I can't comment on it, nor discuss what might have fixed any of the issues I'm stating. I only condemn Blizzard for a few of these things, because like every company they had to innovate and come up with things to keep us interested. Some great, some good, some meh, while others in my opinion of disastrous.

    The Burning Crusade

    My personal favorite, though I never got to Black Temple it was clearly the expansion of the hardcore, and for casuals like myself to always have something work up to. The issues I think that stemmed from this expansion are rather minor in comparison to the others however.

    Flying mounts - Introduced as an awesome feature, provided amazing amounts of convenience even if you just had the lousy 60% speed one. However it somewhat shrunk the world and pretty much killed world PvP. While saying it made the world smaller is me just being petty. I could never get tired of flying around places like Nagrand and enjoying it's beauty and landing whenever something caught your interest.

    However since people no longer had to be on foot, it made erupting sporadic PvP quarrels in flying zones nearly impossible. If anything gankers (who were the catalyst of it) would just prey on those in daily quest hubs which would just be frustrating. Now World PvP was very flawed, no graveyard resser, long death timers, a whole lot of lag, but it kind of bought that MMO feeling in, that there was a world around you. Just as you were ready to log off cause there was nothing to do you hear someone go "Lots of Horde in STV come quick!" and you rush to the challenge. Which leads up to the next thing.

    Resilience Gear - I feel this caused a total split in the WoW community, between PvP and PvE. I found in Vanilla and TBC I always had something to do in terms of progressing my character PvE wise, and since I didn't PvP much back then it made entering BGs painful when I ever did. Back in Vanilla I PvP'd far more, but I could also PvP with my more PvE orientated friends, we would just do BGs for fun and have fun. In TBC and Wrath that wasn't so easy due to the gear requirement. Worst part is in quest hubs like Sunwell Isle you could get easily bullied by players decked out in S4 or S3 gear. It was like being level 70 against a level 80. I did a lot of PvPing in WoTLK so I had the needed gear but once again my friends couldn't enjoy themselves just doing BGs at random because they lacked the gear for it. Hell I even remember being decked out as a full Wrathful Warrior feeling like a Dynasty Warrior as I shredded through poor players just trying to gear up.

    Wrath of the Lich King

    While not my absolute favorite, I definetly had the most fun in this one. It created a great balance for both casuals and hardcore. Considered among the favorites of the expansions and certainly most popular, I think it presented the massive flaws that truely lead up to the disaster in Cataclysm.

    Heroic 5 Man AoE fest - This is a change I truely condemn Blizzard for and one I still don't understand to this date. If I recall correctly they stated they wanted 5 man Heroics to take about an hour to clear while promoting Wrath. So all they had to do was reduce the number of trash mobs really. I mean Shattered Halls and Shadow Labs was absurd. But the difficulty of these "Heroics" were nearly non existent. While TBC Heroics were brutal (especially at launch) and could have been tweeked down, they taught you the basic raiding fundamentals. Watching your aggro, tanking multiple mobs, mana management, CCing and re-CCing, then acting on the fly when things got ugly, whether the hunter had to kite like crazy, the warlock had to pull out his succy and start seducng and fear dotting like crazy etc. They also taught you how to innovate due to their challenge. I remember having a Rogue in Blood Furnace who instead of worrying about his DPS on those Fel Guard Destroyers he would simply stun lock one to mitigate damage to the tank.

    One could argue that it was this drastic change that truly lead up to the spoiled "Wrath Baby." Having never learned how to truly utilize their abilities and only being challenged so much in Naxx which was just another AoE fest lead to a massive amount of QQ when things actually got tough. Remember how an actually challenging 5 man like the final Icecrown one was received? Where god forbid you might actually need to CC things. Challenging 5-mans also allowed one to find talented players to either friend or recruit to your guild. In Wrath only thing you could go by were damage meters, you couldn't judge any other ability though. This ties in with the next thing.

    Looking For Group - Can't condemn Blizzard for this, it was an awesome idea truly. I loved it when it first came out due to it's convenience, but it had some seriously long term affects that we got a preview of in Halls of Reflection. After spoiling the community with jokes for 5-mans it was very hard to just throw 5 randoms into a challenging dungeon and get things done.

    Next it kind of turned this game from an MMO into a dungeon crawler. Before at least two people needed to get to the summoning stone, this was also a spot where potential PvP could break out, and once again as an MMO I can appreciate the inconsistency within the world. It was just another way to nearly never have to leave the capital since it simply ported you there.

    Finally it kind of butchered the community of a server. No longer was your name important to anyone outside of your guild. You could be a total prick to everyone in your party because chances are you would never see them again. Something you see in a lot of games like League of Legends. Your reputation was important in WoW, during Vanilla and TBC. I actually got kicked from a guild in Vanilla due to apparently having a sour one. WoW is what you make of it at the end of the day, and one can still form their own communities, but it just doesn't come quite as natural as it used to. With all the FTP games out there and WoW losing that MMO feeling to it just makes me think that the sub fee just isn't worth it anymore.

    Cataclysm

    Once again a lot of the heat Cata got in large part in my opinion stemmed from decisions in Wrath, they tried to make Heroic's challenging again, and I thought the tuning was perfect. As a tank as long as I bought one of my friends to carry the DPS and due his part in CC I had no issues. But for others the damage from LFG and easy Heroics of WoTLK was done. You couldn't just throw 5 randoms into something challenging anymore. That tied along with you could just port to any of the Cata quest hubs made it even more so that the world just got smaller. And sure DS sucked, but it's not the first bad raid Blizz came up with, I can still respect the effort of the idea. (unlike ToC...) To be honest the one and only thing that I truly condemn Blizzard for in Cata and probably the worst idea they have ever come up with ever since that Real Name ID crap is...

    Looking For Raid - Many of you already know how I feel about this. Not sure how it was changed in MoP but I tell you I think DS might have actually been far better had we not already killed everything in the place already while alt tabbed. I was casual at the time and thought it would a 10 man experience tuned to about Kara/Naxx level and give some 10 man content to those of us that didn't have time to commit to raiding. I was wrong...very wrong.

    It was just a loot pinata, for all the casual friendly stuff they implemented since WoTLK this clearly went too far. There were plenty of ways for casuals to experience content. You had GDKP runs, and then Blizzard would inevitably implement the controversial 30% buff all fine. But LFG wasn't experiencing content, I was better off watching a Youtube video. What made raiding so great was the trial and error of getting things right with the right people and the satisfaction of finally seeing that boss drop. I think Blizzard forgot that when they implemented this and should have really just scrapped it. The fact that I had to log on every week and due this thing to keep up in gear with others is pretty much what made me stop logging on at all.

    Regardless I will never stop loving this game.

  2. #2
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    First: I almost completely agree. I think "Crippled" is a bit harsh, and I think they're making great strides to fix a lot of their mistakes, but I would like to sort of expand upon some of your analysis.

    LFR - LFR is an interesting idea. It's a way to just casually queue up and be able to do content on your own time without having to be sociable. It's the "ultra PUG". It's how you do raiding content in single player mode and you can go all League of Legends style and just lambaste anyone you want because you'll never seen them again, so whatever!

    The problem is that LFR falls to the same fates that LFD did - it takes away the MM part of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer. I think there could/SHOULD be fun solo content. I'm not sure LFR was the right answer, but it happened anyways. And like most quality of life improvements, even if it takes away some major aspect of the game (socializing, realm identity and communities, etc. etc.), it's not going away.

    Let's face it. Flex is what Blizzard SHOULD have done, and probably would have liked to have done, and never had LFR be a thing in general. Too late now, all they can really do is make flex as bamf as possible to try and get people out of LFR and in to "real" raiding where... you know you have to coordinate with people and do mechanics and not be a douche bag.



    On to the next thing I want to talk about: LFD/Heroic 5 man aoe fests.
    I agree with you here, but I don't think LFD/AEFest was the REAL culprit here.

    The REAL culprit - valor.

    DUN DUN DUUUNNNNN. Now hang in there with me a second. At the end of TBC you had was it justice points then? Or... it was something else and then justice points, i don't even remember what it was called. The point is it was a BOP currency used to buy gear. The problem becomes that farming that currency becomes quite a chore. So what blizzard did in WotLK was make it so that the content previously used to farm that currency (5 mans) was now HYPER easy... so you could just farm/grind. If the instances were too difficult then it would take far too long to farm that currency.

    What is it taking a long time a problem? Well at the beginning of WotLK the philosophy of WoW changed. The creators no longer wanted to spend vast amounts of time on content only a small portion would get to see (SWP). They wanted a game where you could log in for 30 minutes of a lunch break and accomplish something. They wanted you to not have to spend all your free time finding a group to do something. EQ started to suffer very poorly from this towards the end of my stent playing. You sat in trade just "Ranger LFG" for hours then just logging off. It's not fun, you're not DOING anything. They also wanted to make it so all people could raid. Instances were subsequently easier (naxx) or had multiple difficulties catering to a broad range of players (ToC), or had an incremental buff that allowed people to progress through the instance faster than normal gear upgrades (ICC). The only raid that really nailed it was Ulduar, imo.

    But I digress... back to valor. Blizzard needed a way for people to grind the much needed in game currency (because let's face it, the rewards in WotLK/Cata were much better overall for valor than in TBC) TBC, as I recall, was sort of "last tier's consolation gear". Valor in WotLK was needed for TIER GEAR. Like WTF? You had to grind this stuff and blizzard didn't want you to have to spend 2 hours finding a group that would take 3 hours to clear the instance. So... AOE Fest ensues.

    Now Reev and I have argued a lot about this actually, and I think the reason for the argument, now that I'm typing this out, is that the purpose of those 5 mans was different from TBC to WotLK. In WotLK it was to farm valor. In TBC it was to have fun and farm your intro raid gear. TBC was much more continuous. You hit 70, you did 5 mans until you had the gear for Kara which you did until you could do 25 man content then you really needed to complete each tier to get to the next (btw, I love this model, because as you say it always gives casual players something to work towards, in Cata especially there was almost zero reason to do previous tiers once the next one came out). In WotLK you needed 5 mans to quickly farm your weekly valor.

    So... blizzard did what they did for 2-3 or so expansions - they changed an aspect of the game that was difficult, removed the social aspect from it, and turned it in to an LOLgrindfest to farm shit. Now... for farming... I LOVE AoE Fests. I love being able to walk in and just destroy shit. Feels kinda like Diablo. "I'M HERE AND I AM THE SLAYER OF GOODS, MUWAHAHHA DIE YOU PUNY EVIL MINIONS!!!" That's fun every now and then. Even today sometimes I queue as tank in my heroic fury gear and just roll through the instance laughing my ass off.

    So... here's my HOPES for WOD - 5 mans become hard again and scenarios are the "here grind your currency you grindmonkey that only has 15 minutes" format. 5 mans, imo, should NOT drop valor. Or maybe only from the last boss and it's just way more efficient to farm scenarios, like it is now. But 5 mans SHOULD drop epic entry-raid level gear. There needs to be a reason to do them, they need to be at least somewhat challenging - perhaps requiring CC *gasp* - the bosses need to have real mechanics, and the reward for that difficulty needs to be justified. Or maybe they could drop an item that gives you a random tertiary stat to a piece of gear if you collect so many, or maybe only 1 drops per instance or something like that. I would love for 5 mans to be a viable, difficult, challenging format, and now that there's something you can do to be all grindy and farm your gearscorecurrencyvalorshits from (heroic scenarios), maybe blizzard will stop shitting on 5 mans.

    My FEARS for WOD - and hang on with me on this one and let me explain - OQueue destroys WoW.

    Apparently the blizz devs are working with the folks that made OQueue in order to make their new flex raid searching tools for WoD. I am scared scared scared SHITLESS that this is going to turn into LFR with more bickering and and wipes and people just getting frustrated and saying fuck it because they're never going to see these people in a queue again so whatever. I see that starting to happen already and it's really frustrating. Flex raid is amazing because it brings BACK the social aspects of the game in a capacity that has never been seen before. It allows people to be more casual with the game and is just perfect. I love it... but I love it because there ISN'T a built in autoqueue option that rips the social aspect right out of the game again. Oqueue does that.

    Is this really what we, as WoW players and really... gamers in general have turned in to? Do we really just want a fucking queue lobby for everything we do regardless of if we're playing Call of Duty, World of Warcraft, or whatever? AS LONG AS IT IS MULTIPLAYER WE MUST HAVE QUEUE LOBBIES.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  3. #3
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    Great response. I don't see much wrong with the whole Valor system. I remember the arguements of the casual vs hardcore thing, but it wasn't a big deal, and Blizzard has no issue every changing the currency system.

    The 5-man AoE Fest change as I saided Crippled the game and I use that word because unlike other changes this one as we saw in Cata was irreversible. I liked my 5 man content being engaging, with my comrades in vent. That's why I actually enjoyed Halls of Reflection, any good tank from the TBC days would.

    While I"m disgusted the most with LFR Blizzard's heart was in the right place, it was just implemented terribly. I still have no idea why in heavens name they made 5 man Heroics a joke. I think it's a clear reason why I feel the quality in players dropped and you see so many cry babies. I remember in Vanilla before DPS meters were created and only showed total damage, people in 5 mans didn't care how much damage they were doing, it was about overcoming the obstacle.

    In TBC when I helped manage a guild execution was the least of our problems, we came to find out our DPS weren't pulling the numbers that they should, that's a problem easily fixed (at least in those days) by using WoWWebstats and getting feedback we told our people how to itemize and what rotation they should be using.

    In WoTLK doing 25 man Naxx do you know how often you would find a pug that had no idea how to Mind Control for Razuvious? It's because they never had to use all their skills. As frustrating as getting stuck in a 5 man was it's how you got better by overcoming challenges. Lol I remember being stuck on the second boss of Shadowlabs because in my ignorance I thought a Protection Warrior's only rotation was Heroic Strike + Devestate (I mean it was the final tier talent right!?) In the LFG system people would have just left that group until I would somehow get carried. Here a friendly mage in my party realized my rotation was wrong and it was Shield Slam > Revenge > Devastate + Heroic Strike (lol). Next thing you know I hold aggro better then most warriors. Soon I overcome the issue of not having enough CC by learning how to tank multiple mobs, something most people didn't think Warriors could do. (pretty sure I learned that from you guys.)

    Blizzard took that learning curve away from us and I hate them for.

  4. #4
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    The only reason heroics in BC seemed hard is that at release there were certain specific trash mobs that could kill a tank in under a second before your healer could react. Shattered Hall and Shadow Labs were outliers in their difficulty.

    Gearing up was also really slow in BC so the heroics felt harder for longer. But once people started getting decent gear they were just as much an aoe grind fest as anything else that came after. Once people had gear Shattered Halls, which was previously considered very hard, became the posterchild for AOE zerg fest.


    TBC was much more continuous. You hit 70, you did 5 mans until you had the gear for Kara which you did until you could do 25 man content then you really needed to complete each tier to get to the next (btw, I love this model, because as you say it always gives casual players something to work towards, in Cata especially there was almost zero reason to do previous tiers once the next one came out). In WotLK you needed 5 mans to quickly farm your weekly valor.
    This was fun if you were there from day 1 and were in a progression raiding guild, however, it sucked balls for new players or casuals. I was in a progression guild from day 1 through BT before I burnt out of raiding and rerolled a new server to play casually. Once you hit 70 that late in the game there was no way to gear up to a level to get into any even somewhat serious guild. Because of attunements guilds tried to poach from each other because no one wanted to run SSC/Tk to attune you. And if you were not in a raiding guild there was nothing to do. You could pug Kara, and possibly the troll zone if you got lucky, and then nothing else other than 5 mans.

    WoTLK was much better in this regard as there was a path to gear yourself up on your own to reach the point that you could get into a raiding guild. Between heroics, 10 mans, GDKPs there were all kinds of things to do that could get your started.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meeks View Post
    The only reason heroics in BC seemed hard is that at release there were certain specific trash mobs that could kill a tank in under a second before your healer could react. Shattered Hall and Shadow Labs were outliers in their difficulty.

    Gearing up was also really slow in BC so the heroics felt harder for longer. But once people started getting decent gear they were just as much an aoe grind fest as anything else that came after. Once people had gear Shattered Halls, which was previously considered very hard, became the posterchild for AOE zerg fest.




    This was fun if you were there from day 1 and were in a progression raiding guild, however, it sucked balls for new players or casuals. I was in a progression guild from day 1 through BT before I burnt out of raiding and rerolled a new server to play casually. Once you hit 70 that late in the game there was no way to gear up to a level to get into any even somewhat serious guild. Because of attunements guilds tried to poach from each other because no one wanted to run SSC/Tk to attune you. And if you were not in a raiding guild there was nothing to do. You could pug Kara, and possibly the troll zone if you got lucky, and then nothing else other than 5 mans.

    WoTLK was much better in this regard as there was a path to gear yourself up on your own to reach the point that you could get into a raiding guild. Between heroics, 10 mans, GDKPs there were all kinds of things to do that could get your started.
    I only hit Tier 4 with some Tier 5 level pieces from SSC, the rest would come from badge gear or crafted items, or reputation epics. Heroics were never a zerg fest for me. I mean sure if I ended up with a Tier 6 Windfury Shaman then yea things would go smoother, but I think for the masses Heroic content still required some thinking.

    I do agree with removing attunements and what not. It made things smoother in WoTLK.

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    I rerolled half way through BC too, that's when I made my warrior. But this was also when I started a new guild. And we started at kara and progressed all the way to Kil'Jaeden. We did have 1 of our shaman healers get poached... by a guild we eventually passed... MUWAHAHAHAHA. I realize I'm probably an outlier in my experiences during TBC though. Get WHY the philosophy change, I just don't think it ended up being for the better of the game. Now I do like the general "okay once a tier is over nerf it by 20% so that people can blow through it and still see the content" and make it so there's reasons to still go back and do that content - like the legendary quest chain - so... basically like it is right now. But just "oh hey, new patch drops, that last tier is now 100% MEAINGLESS" really sucked. A balance needs to be struck, and it's a tough one to hit.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I rerolled half way through BC too, that's when I made my warrior. But this was also when I started a new guild. And we started at kara and progressed all the way to Kil'Jaeden. We did have 1 of our shaman healers get poached... by a guild we eventually passed... MUWAHAHAHAHA. I realize I'm probably an outlier in my experiences during TBC though. Get WHY the philosophy change, I just don't think it ended up being for the better of the game. Now I do like the general "okay once a tier is over nerf it by 20% so that people can blow through it and still see the content" and make it so there's reasons to still go back and do that content - like the legendary quest chain - so... basically like it is right now. But just "oh hey, new patch drops, that last tier is now 100% MEAINGLESS" really sucked. A balance needs to be struck, and it's a tough one to hit.
    They should have considered a model like this, but you also have to take note of how 10 mans and 25 mans along with Heroic modes really threw item levels into flux.

    Back in BC I always had something to work for, I only never saw the end of SSC/TK and I wanted to, nor did I get to see BT or Sunwell, and I wanted to!

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    I heard a rumor through the grapevine, haven't looked for blue post on it, but in WoD players will have to achieve silver ranking in proving grounds to Q for 5 man heroics. I think this will maybe mean people will have a basic understanding of their class in the heroics. I know Silver is nothing dificult. But that's the perspective of somebody who knows the ins and outs of their class well enough to raid at a heroic level. So.... yeah, light at the end of the Tunnel, WoD won't have COMPLETE morons in heroics. There will also be "normal" max level dungeons, probably on par with the MoP *cough* "heroics".
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    Yeah, the level 100 "normals" are going to be on par with the MoP "heroics". The "silver for random queue" for heroics was from an interview last week.

    Levelling to 100 will get you the gear requirement for level 100 normals. The gear from normal 5 mans at level cap will be enough to get you into LFR, which will gear you for Normal raiding. Level 100 heroic 5 mans will gear you for "normal" raids (difficulty = flex), which will lead you into "heroic" raids (difficulty = MoP normal) which leads into Mythic (MoP heroic) - or you can just skip the easy flex difficulty and jump right into heroic and mythic if you are good enough.

  10. #10
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    Silver Ranking? Lol I've been gone for far too long, how does this work exactly?

    Some form of test to gauge a players understanding of the game and his class? Would this form of gating cause people who suck to QQ for being excluded?

  11. #11
    For a cripple, WoW sure seems healthy and active.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Silver Ranking? Lol I've been gone for far too long, how does this work exactly?

    Some form of test to gauge a players understanding of the game and his class? Would this form of gating cause people who suck to QQ for being excluded?
    Proving Grounds is a solo-instance that is spec-specific with waves of enemies of increasing difficulty. 4 waves is bronze, 7 is silver, 10 is gold. Your gear is normalized to 463 item level, legendary cloak effects, legendary meta gems and tier set bonuses are deactivated.

    DPS have to kill stuff, healers have to keep NPCs alive (the more life they have, the more damage they do), tanks have to protect a healer.

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    DPS have to kite stuff and interupts stuff don't they? pretty sure healers have to dispel, tnaks have to move things into ground effects to kill them.

    I haven't found them to be particularily challenging up to gold, but the DPS timers can be tight, and will require people to at least know the basics of their rotation. It's not gona stop fucktards who can't turn growl off from joining but it will at least give a minimum H/DPS threshold.
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    What Crippled WoW is what will Cripple all of us eventually - age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Proving Grounds is a solo-instance that is spec-specific with waves of enemies of increasing difficulty. 4 waves is bronze, 7 is silver, 10 is gold. Your gear is normalized to 463 item level, legendary cloak effects, legendary meta gems and tier set bonuses are deactivated.

    DPS have to kill stuff, healers have to keep NPCs alive (the more life they have, the more damage they do), tanks have to protect a healer.
    Wow thats pretty awesome. They could have really used that in WoTLK though. Rotations got much more complex for most classes from TBC to WoTLK. No more Hunter Macro or Shadowbolt spam lol.

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    I hear that hunter macro is a thing again. At least for BM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Shadowbolt spam lol.
    I loved shadowbolt spam. Bind shadowbolt to scroll wheel and scroll your way to victory!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I loved shadowbolt spam. Bind shadowbolt to scroll wheel and scroll your way to victory!
    Hey, once a minute you had to re-cast Curse of Doom!

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    How do you guys feel about the introduction of resilience gear though? While it gave those who both PvE and PvP more to work for, I seriously feel that it gated casual PvPers that mostly did PvE.

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    I'ld have to agree on that Resilience thing.
    It wasn't as bad when PvP gear was less stats + Resilience (it made raiding geared chars glass cannons), but the PvP Power shit right now makes me stay away from attempting PvP, because I start out with a disadvantage.
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