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Thread: So I've accepted I'm in an abusive relationship with tanking...

  1. #1
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    So I've accepted I'm in an abusive relationship with tanking...

    Where I hate it but I'm drawn to it like a moth to the flame that will fry it. So I've accepted this and am now trying to catch up after spending nearly all of MoP on the sidelines.

    What I think I understand in a nutshell is this:

    There are 2 basic gearing philsophies (ignoring crit-centric) - Mastery/Stam and Dodge/Parry.

    It seems like both gearing philosophies have the same goal - in most cases maximize rage gain to maximize sBlock uptime.

    Mastery/Stam builds focus on maximizing crit-block to gain rage.

    Avoidance builds focus on maximizing the value of riposte by increasing % of occuring and maximizing the crit rating gain (by having more rating to covert to crit) for crit SS and Rev for rage gains.

    So question #1 - Is this basically the idea behind each gearing philosophy?

    Next, Avoidance Balancing - for warriors you get strength converted to parry. So Parry DR are less than dodge DR because you're designed to have more of it, but at the same time that means you can't simply balance Dodge and Parry rating.

    So question #2 - Is there a way to easily calculate the real value of each additional point of rating? I'm assuming the math is something like:
    Diminishing return of Dodge at rating N = Diminishing return of Parry rating at N where N = Parry Rating + Parry Rating + Strength. Essentially you're trying to balance DR for Dodge Rating = Parry Rating + Parry from Strength Rating?

    Even in a mastery/stam build you'd still want to balance your DR for Dodge compared to Parry + Strength Parry.


    And finally - question #3 - with 2 charges and a 9 second CD with 6 second uptime, sBlock appears to have a possible 100% uptime for the first 18 seconds, then a 66% maximum uptime until both charges are restored. So you can't maintain 100% block uptime, what is the value of rating per % of block?

    The reason I'm asking is if both builds generate roughly the same amount of rage (Teng's guide suggests you may not even need all SS/Rev CDs to max rage gain with enough mastery as you may not need 7.5% hit/15% exp to max rage gains) and icy-veins strongly recommends avoidance builds to maximize rage gain through riposte, then I'm going to make the dangerous assumption that if you play well, rage generation (and thus sBlock uptime) will be similar for both builds making the overriding concern what to do for the 3 seconds every 9 you don't have 100% sBlock up.

    Philsophically, I'm inclined to go the stam/mastery route as traditionally that's been the best option for incoming damage smoothing, but if I get more dodge/parry% after DR than regular block% after DR then an avoidance build would seem to be preferable as it increase dodge/parry/block % by more than a stam/mastery build. But I can't find the numbers here and reforging testing appears to show me that the gains to regular block % are completely underwhelming.

    From my reforging it seemed like I was looking at giving up ~6% dodge/parry (pre-DR) for 4% block (pre-DR). Did I just completely mis-read the results of my reforging test?

    Thanks
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  2. #2
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    1. No. Rage has very little to do with it. It's all about whether your raid needs more DPS or more survivability for the content you're doing. Stam/Mastery for survivabilty Parry for raw damage. raid bosses for the most part do not challenge tank ehp until you fuck up the mechanics

    2. there's a cheap and dirty macro in my guide but If you want real maths Theck's got a couple of very mathy Blog posts worth reading

    http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/08/08...nts-all-tanks/
    http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/09/14/avoidance-diminishing-returns-in-mop-followup/

    In a stam/mastery build you do want to balance your avoidance, but for the msot part it pretty much boils down to reforging any bit you haven't already reforged to meet the hit/exp caps or maximise mastery to dodge since you'll generally get enough str from gear to push you heavily into parry's DR. In an Avoidance build you still don't really care about balancing becuase Parry thanks to GoHtL (and a little bit to parry-haste) menas that Parry is much much better for your DPS than dodge is.

    3. 24 seconds followed by 3 seconds of down time. it only works out to be 12 seconds of down time if you need to setup another 24 seconds of Sblock coverage. The value of Mastery as block rating is pathetic, but it doesn't matter becuase unless you massively under gear the content no boss can two shot you (unless you fuck up the mechanics and take more stacks of tank debuff than you should), and with a 3 second gap between shield blocks they kinda need to do that.

    The rage gains are practically identical in tier 15 gear. they might be identical in lower gear, i haven't simmed anything below 522 ilvl with 5.4 mode but practically any setup should give you more than enough rage to keep Sblock on CD. Back in 5.0 in 463 gear with every gem and reforge and a trinket to cap out hit and expertise you could generate enough rage to keep sblock on CD. If you're not generating enough rage to keep Sblock on CD you're doing something very very wrong. Rage isn't an issue.

    You need to stop comparing pre-dr block for pre-dr parry. it's meaningless, the combat table doens't work like that anymore. As a warrior you do not care about your block chance any more than you care about your in combat mana regen. on fast taunt swap fights you really do have very little opportunity to be bursted down since you'll generally be taking the boss for 30s out of each minute so you can easily cover yourself for with SBlock for 24 seconds and demo shout for 10, without even attempting to use Sbar to plug the wholes in SBlock uptime. On fights where you have the boss for longer stints, you generally get to throw disarms in or are fighting packs of adds which don't really hit very hard, or are having to deal with non combat table frontal cones.

    and their are the legendary bits.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    Quick hi-jack: should I wait for Hold the Line if Revenge comes off cooldown and HtL isn't up?

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    I clearly mis-understood what I read then. What is the main difference then between a mastery/stam build and an avoidance build? Trying to reset myself, the goal of mastery/stam is so that during the 24 seconds of sBlock uptime it's a critblock for 60%, thus smoothing the damage the most and avoidance builds basically say ef-it. And look to avoid hits completely while relying on the 30% to smooth damage enough during bad hit streaks?

    And thanks for the link - I had already added the macro in your guide, I wanted to better understand the math behind it.

    Thanks Teng.

    P.S. coming back after leaving sometime in firelands seems like it's a world gone mad. Pallys stacking haste. Block doesn't matter, just crit block. Avoidance competative (better) depending on which site you visit... My head hurts.
    Last edited by Loganisis; 11-29-2013 at 10:19 AM.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    @fetz; Not really, no, since every time you proc HtL you also refresh the CD of revenge anyway. Revenge should still be better than Dev (and possible thunderclap, depending on GoRP and no. of targets) without HTL so still use the standard SS>Rev>Dev priority for single targets and SS>Rev>TC>Rev rotation for AoE

    @Loganisis; TBH theirs not a lot of difference at all. Mastery builds come out slightly smoother, parry builds come out slightly ahead on DPS, both should be using Sblock in an identical mannner proactively. no matter how you build your toon you active mititgation stays the same, you keep shield block up as much as possible, and trust you healers/CDs/Self heals/procs/passives/Sbarrier to be able to deal with the gaps in sblock uptime, and for the most part that works. Most bosses are setup that they won't kill tanks unless you fuck the mechanics, undergear the instance, or your healers/DPS suck balls.

    And thats the Crux of it, if you're healers are struggling (or you sometimes just die) Mastery is probally what you should stack, if the DPS are stuggling (or you're the last man standing) Parry is what you want.


    Pallies stack haste becuase it does turn into more resources and healing for them. we kinda reach the point where extra resources aren't much of a survivabilty gain just by hit and expertise capping., we don't care about block becuase for the most part we should have 100% block anyway, and if we're smart we can delay an SBlock a few seconds to make sure we can block any attack we must.

    Better is a subjective term. Better for what? A lot of tanks just don't die, so adding more survivability isn't actually adding anything, it's like giving Superman a bullet proof vest, so the choice is Don't die or don't die and do 5% more deeps.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Better is a subjective term. Better for what? A lot of tanks just don't die, so adding more survivability isn't actually adding anything, it's like giving Superman a bullet proof vest, so the choice is Don't die or don't die and do 5% more deeps.
    lol - fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    A lot of it is the legendary bits, they really do add a rediculous amount of smoothing and survivabilty.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    Although the cloak itself is far less overpowered for the content than it was in ToT, what with the possibility of a heroic-warforged cloak from the second boss of SoO; it is mostly the meta gem providing a massive smoothing effect.

  9. #9
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    Stam = 1.3
    Mastery (to 82.4%) = 1.01
    Exp to 15 = .1
    Hit to 7.5 = .99
    Dodge = .9
    Parry = 0.89
    ...(standard)
    ... Mastery past 82.4 = .5

    ***

    Thought behind it... The soft cap for mastery is 82.4 raid buffed from what I read for 100% crit block during SB. So the idea is hit that point then slightly value exp > hit since it's working on 2 parts of the miss table and then slightly value dodge over parry.

    I hit a few blue bonuses at this point, but not really focusing on that, and then I get more dodge than Parry trying to even out the DR in both. Or is there a more elegant way to balance dodge/parry?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Where are you getting these stat weights from? Our survival state weights are highly dynamic, and do shift a fair amount. Hit/exp tend to be much more valuable at lower mastery values and dodge and parry have a rather fixed realtionship, but at high strength values dodge outscales m Parry due to DRs on parry from all the strength on your gear. The Mastery soft cap is 89% unless you use Mastery elixers & food, which you shouldn't since stam food is better itemised
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
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    Ah, gotcha.

    1. Mastery - I was google searching and 82.4 raidbuffed was what came out. 89% it is.

    2. Hit/exp - I haven't actually tanked yet in MoP. I just re-started raiding and my DPS set is my main set, but the new guild I'm in looks like it could use another swing tank, so I'm trying to build my set up.

    3. Gear level is ~SoO normalish. Is it H T16 or T16 in general that dodge becomes more valuable - using the Macro you link in your guide the dirty answer is 'Moar dodge' so this is why I was slightly valuing dodge more than parry (which in AMR's world means much more when it comes to binary choices between dodge/parry).

    Weights are going to be dynamic for sure, but as a general baseline I'm basically looking for validation of this general premise:

    Stam when socket bonus are very good > Mastery to soft cap (89%) > Dodge slightly more than parry > Stam in general > else. With Hit/Exp worked in as needed.

    Obviously I'll need some real experience with our healers to see if only hitting a few slots with stam works (and seeing how gear drops go for more health). So I know that's a variable you can't account for.

    Basically from everything I've read so far, avoidance/EHP builds are as close as they've ever been but hitting the soft block cap (or whatever you call 100% crit block) appeals the most to me as I prefer steadier incoming damage even if may result in less TDR.

    I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to weight AMR to give me what I want. lol
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    It usually somewhere around T15 that dodge becomes more valuable than mastery, but if you have a dodge heavy set you can push DRs the other way so parry pulls ahead again. It really is balancing; you you generally want 2x to 2.4x as much Parry chance as Dodge chance after DRs. I'm not sure is AMR takes that into account, or if it takes raid buffs into account pre or post cap, so you'll want to check that if you set 89% at the soft caps it isn't actually soft capping you at 78% from gear. Probably best to set the soft cap at 100%.

    TBH i'm not really sure why you're using AMR for this, dump exp/maastery in red, mastery/stams in blues and mastery in yellow, reforge avoidance for hit/exp caps and then into more mastery. You'll still probably need a mastery trinket or two anyway for he mastery cap. You're really not gonna have much freedom left over to balance avoidance, until you get a fair few heroic warforged bits at least
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 12-19-2013 at 01:13 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #13
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    Don't use AMR for tanking, it will make your head spin.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Don't use AMR for tanking, it will make your head spin.
    The only time I look at AMR is to compare how it would reforge for my hit/exp caps..... that's after I have a 5 minute arm wrestle to convince it that I really do want to gem straight haste on my paladin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    It usually somewhere around T15 that dodge becomes more valuable than mastery, but if you have a dodge heavy set you can push DRs the other way so parry pulls ahead again. It really is balancing; you you generally want 2x to 2.4x as much Parry chance as Dodge chance after DRs. I'm not sure is AMR takes that into account, or if it takes raid buffs into account pre or post cap, so you'll want to check that if you set 89% at the soft caps it isn't actually soft capping you at 78% from gear. Probably best to set the soft cap at 100%.

    TBH i'm not really sure why you're using AMR for this, dump exp/maastery in red, mastery/stams in blues and mastery in yellow, reforge avoidance for hit/exp caps and then into more mastery. You'll still probably need a mastery trinket or two anyway for he mastery cap. You're really not gonna have much freedom left over to balance avoidance, until you get a fair few heroic warforged bits at least
    Teng, thanks. I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around the changes, so I know i"m asking quite a few mundane questions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Don't use AMR for tanking, it will make your head spin.
    Anywhere you'd suggest for figuring out dodge/parry DR? Teng's got the rule of thumb above - that was really what I was trying to use AMR for. I've got the macro he outlines in his guide too, but I was hoping for something a little more precise than More A or More B.

    Thanks all
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    "optimizing" parry vs dodge DR just.... really does not matter. Seriously. I actually just go full parry. The difference in performance is laughable at best.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    As i said in the first repsonse you either maximise mastery at the expanse of the balancing the DRs, or you maximise Parry for DPS.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    You only get ridonkulous revenges after parry procs (hold the line), not dodge, so it's actually best to go as heavy parry until your DR for parry is well under half the avoidance dodge gives you. Which doesn't really happen until like 40%+ Parry. At that point, meh... throw in some parry/dodge gems? But again... the performance difference is so hard to calculate it's not worth it. You get into some really confusing statistical analysis that not even I feel like doing!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Anywhere you'd suggest for figuring out dodge/parry DR? Teng's got the rule of thumb above - that was really what I was trying to use AMR for. I've got the macro he outlines in his guide too, but I was hoping for something a little more precise than More A or More B.
    Thanks all
    I'm not suggesting you try to balance DR for parry/dodge. Agg and Teng both explained what was more important. The following is more of an informational post.

    The mathematics behind balancing DR originally comes from using some basic Calculus where you compare the derivative of the parry DR equation to the derivative of the dodge DR equation and solve for the ratio of dodge/parry. The resultant equation is:

    (percent_dr_parry/percent_dr_dodge) = (C_p/C_d)

    C_d and C_p are the DR constants for dodge and parry

    percent_dr_dodge is the percentage of dodge that is affected by DR (base isn't)
    percent_dr_parry is the percentage of parry that is affected by DR (base isn't)

    That (C_p/C_d) side is what helps define that rule of thumb Teng mentioned (though the rule of thumb probably makes some assumptions to avoid worrying about avoidance affected by DR versus avoidance not affected by DR, making it inexact).

    Basically, the closer you can keep (percent_dr_parry/percent_dr_dodge) to (C_p/C_d), the more optimized your DR is. The problems with doing this are that you have to manually manage avoidance affected by DR versus not affected by DR (game doesn't provide this info) and it simply isn't worth it 99% of the time. The rule of thumb gets you close enough that trying to optimize past that can be in the 100ths to 100ths of a percent change, which isn't going to be noticeable over the lifetime of the gear you are optimizing with. If you are a world first type guild, you might worry about it, but the rule of thumb is going to cover most people more than well enough.

  20. #20
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    If you are a world first type guild, you might worry about it, but the rule of thumb is going to cover most people more than well enough.
    Tbh, if you are in a guild chasing the world/region firsts, you likely won't have the time to balance your DRs during progress, and when progress is over nobody cares about whether you got 0.05% total avoidance more or not anyway. I see it as more of a theoretical exercise and not one that one would necessarily put into practice. It was more relevant when block was on the same combat table as avoidance was, because of block-capping, but now it is just pointless from a practical point of view.

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