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Thread: Flex Scaling Going to Normal Difficulty in WoD

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    This sounds utterly, ridiculously stupid. Why even change it around for that? Meh... good news is that there are other promising MMO's on the horizon.
    It's not stupid, basically what happened was, since they give the flexible size to normal as well, you can't really have 2 flexible scaling difficulties but only one named "Flex". Since flex is not a unique feature but actually implemented in all but the most hardcore difficulty, it makes sense that we won't have 1 difficulty arbitrarily named flex and the rest not when they all use the same system.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Loot distribution in 10 mans "oh look spell leather dropped" *has zero spell leather raiders*

    This is all fixed by the flexloot system for the other difficulties, but is still a MAJOR issue for 10 man guilds, especially 10 man HC guilds.
    Overrated. It was never as bad as all that...yeah, you'd get those situations and yeah it was kind of annoying to get (for us) DPS plate when you have no plate DPS, but honestly that happens eventually regardless of the raid size. And you DO need shards.

    And it's not even just hating people...it's that 10 man is more enjoyable...your contribution means more, the level of personal responsibility is higher and honestly you know your raiders better. When I did 25 mans (in Wrath, granted) I knew about 13 of the people in my raid...and some of them was just because "holy crap <some resto druid> is TRASH why is he in the raid?!"

    Now, granted, we were not able to be as progressed w/our 25 man raid because we dealt with, frex, shitty resto druids whereas in 10 man we didn't.

    Anyway...fuck 20 mans.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Loot distribution in 10 mans "oh look spell leather dropped" *has zero spell leather raiders*

    This is all fixed by the flexloot system for the other difficulties, but is still a MAJOR issue for 10 man guilds, especially 10 man HC guilds.
    But they already fix that by changing it into "Hey Leather dropped, any Rogue/Druid/Monk want this Crit/Haste item?"
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  4. #24
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    Blizzard should have bit the bullet and just stuck with 25 man for mythic, but the outcry/sub loss from the 10 man guilds would have been anticipated and hey presto - 20 man. Realising their mistake before releasing Cataclysm would have been more helpful but the damage has already been done. The fact mythic isn't 25 man is purely so that they can say to the 10 man guilds "hey look, we hurt 25 man guilds too, right?... guys, right?"

  5. #25
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    Maybe they just regret making the raid size 25 in the first place, and since they're already doing away with 10s, they might as well change the number to one they like better.

    I never understood why they went from 40 to 25 when they already had 20-man raids (Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj and Zul'Gurub, for those who weren't around or can't remember).
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taelas View Post
    Maybe they just regret making the raid size 25 in the first place, and since they're already doing away with 10s, they might as well change the number to one they like better.
    One of the panels said they've found 20 is the sweet spot for their tuning, for whatever reason. I'm sure the change is a combination of thing, but being in a 10 man guild it will cause us some issues in WoD, but we'll see how it goes. I'm not going to get too excited about it one way or the other at this point. Although having done 10 and 25 man raiding, I can say I prefer 10 man. Closer knit group, you really get to know tendencies and it's logistically easier.

  7. #27
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    I think it comes down to this:
    10 man raids cause a lot of problems, it's a popular format, with the majority of raiders being in 10 man guilds now, but to make a better game, this is a bullet that just has to be bitten to make better content for the cutting edge game, and I think hardcore raiders will mesh with go with whatever format blizz shoe-horns them in to.

    They may loose the Ions of the world that just don't want to deal with that many people, but I feel like that's probably a minority of raiders and overall this will be good for the game.
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  8. #28
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    I'll be honest, I really enjoyed the 20 man raids from Vanilla and felt they were a good size. I know the difference is slight, but 25 always felt just slightly too big, and maybe more because of the difficulty shift in BC. 40 mans were great because they were basically our 20 man groups with 20 carries and there was a lot of banter and fun as a result (remember carries back then were usually your guildies, so that was usually acceptable). While I did a lot of 25man in Wrath, I really never liked the format.

  9. #29
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    Sorry to revive this, but considering returning to WoW for WoD, this new raiding format is a bit confusing since I'm not familar with Flex Raiding since I didn't play MoP at all.

    So pretty much the raid "attunes" itself to the size of the number of people you have. Meaning bosses and mobs will have high health and damage if you have 20 people and less if you have 10.

    Now this sounded great to me at first, but then through all my years raiding it just made me consider why would you ever bring more then 10 unless it's a super easy raid and your just being casual. I mean think of how easy 25 man Lich King would have been if you couldn't simply boot the people who couldn't deal with Defile?

    Tell me if I have the wrong idea on how flex raiding actually works, but it seems like it could ruin a part of what made raiding great. I remember in WoTLK my guild had what I would call the consistent elite of about 8, and then about 4 upper middle tier. The 12 of us combined would clear 10 man content and achievements in record time. 25 mans however while we performed well it wasn't as easy. Getting everyone else on the same page is what made raiding fun, and taking down a boss with more people just feels like more of an accomplishment. I guess you could say we were "carrying them" but it was more then that. Having to coordinate those with maybe less prowess and finding a strategy that made things better for all is what made it awesome. But if we could have just plucked off the weak links we would have.

    Kind of on the fence here...

  10. #30
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    I'm not sure great is the term i'd use to describe that feeling, Bloody frustrating is probably more accurate. I don't think you've got the wrong idea at all. It is going to be easier to cut the bads from a roster because they will no longer have the luxury of having to be carried until a replacement is found, they can just axed. which is so much better for whoever is running the raid, no longer have to be stuck in the situation of kicking the bad and having to cancel a raid because of lack of numbers or carry the bad whilst you find a replacement and have your better players leave rather than be held back.

    it should also make things easier because you're no longer really going to have a bench outside of mythic, My raid has a roster of 12 decent raiders and due to schedule conflicts most of the time we end up with 10 for each night sometimes 11 or 12, with how we're raiding next expac we're not going to have any of those "who sits for what boss bullshit". They all come for all the bosses.

    It really does just get rid of so many negative scenario's
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  11. #31
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    The other thing about the flexible formats (normal and heroic in WoD, not mythic in WoD) is that they will be cross-realm and will not share lockouts with each other or mythic. So... say you have 11 people and you have a friend on another server that's a mythic raider, they can join your raid group, no problem (for normal/heroic).

    The whole idea is to be able to add/subtract people to your raid and roster much more easily than you can now. If you wanna shoot for 10, go for 10, if you have some friends that are better, you can bring them and raid with 11, no issue.

    Keep in mind also this is NOT for Mythic raiding in WoD, that's still set to 20 exactly, so this will be only doable for the easier raids, so odds are you won't have any defile-esque mechanics in a flexible format.
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  12. #32
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    right now, flex/normal mode raid difficultly is a joke. Even hellscream isn't anywhere close to illidan or lk normal modes.

    If this is a taste of what's to come from raid design -boring, redundant, but can scale with very little development work involved- I'm not impressed.
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  13. #33
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    it's meant to be easy, truc.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Sorry to revive this, but considering returning to WoW for WoD, this new raiding format is a bit confusing since I'm not familar with Flex Raiding since I didn't play MoP at all.

    So pretty much the raid "attunes" itself to the size of the number of people you have. Meaning bosses and mobs will have high health and damage if you have 20 people and less if you have 10.

    Now this sounded great to me at first, but then through all my years raiding it just made me consider why would you ever bring more then 10 unless it's a super easy raid and your just being casual. I mean think of how easy 25 man Lich King would have been if you couldn't simply boot the people who couldn't deal with Defile?

    Tell me if I have the wrong idea on how flex raiding actually works, but it seems like it could ruin a part of what made raiding great. I remember in WoTLK my guild had what I would call the consistent elite of about 8, and then about 4 upper middle tier. The 12 of us combined would clear 10 man content and achievements in record time. 25 mans however while we performed well it wasn't as easy. Getting everyone else on the same page is what made raiding fun, and taking down a boss with more people just feels like more of an accomplishment. I guess you could say we were "carrying them" but it was more then that. Having to coordinate those with maybe less prowess and finding a strategy that made things better for all is what made it awesome. But if we could have just plucked off the weak links we would have.

    Kind of on the fence here...
    To answer your Flex questions more directly Kah, Flex does indeed tune itself to the number of players. So, if you have 10 players, the boss has 100mil health (as an example), then adding a few more players scales that up to 110mil and the damage output from him also scales up. It also scales up boss mechanics where possible. So if there is a "thing" you have to go stand in and there are 2 of said things in 10 man, there will be "on average" 3 of those things when you have 15 players. I say "on average" because it actually calculates it as a chance to spawn an additional thing to stand in. So like at 12 players, there's a 40% chance you'll get a 3rd thingy, 14 players there is an 80% chance, etc, etc. So in this way they can also scale up many raid mechanics.

    So, this only applies to the "normal" and "heroic" new raid tier. "Mythic" will be the new hardest content and you'll have to have exactly 20 peeps to go there. But if you want to clear the raid tier on "normal" or "heroic" there is nothing stopping you from bringing just your 10-12 people and clear it all at your own pace. Its just that if you want to finish off the tier on Mythic, you'll have to recruit up and have that bigger roster. The nice part I see early on is that you'll be able to take 25 players to normal and heroic and really find out who is going to be "Mythic-ready" out of that roster. I'm sure most Mythic guilds will farm heroic at least for a month or two for gear and then cut down fulltime to Mythic. We'll see.

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