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Thread: Flex Scaling Going to Normal Difficulty in WoD

  1. #1
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    Flex Scaling Going to Normal Difficulty in WoD

    Don't know if like this - could be the final nail in the coffin of 25 man raiding. Also, does that mean normal goes to lfr/flex style loot system. That would suck, I like see loot on a boss, yeah I know it's no different, but it seems like raiding when you kill the boss, the look to see what dropped.

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    Omg omg omg love this!!!!!!
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    Every guild will be a 20 man guild now.
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    Why will 20 be the magic number? Flex with 25 people isn't really any harder than Flex with 20.

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    Because that's what mythic is.
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    I don't really see this as flex going away and now normal and heroic are flexible I see this as heroic mode as we know it becoming 20 man and normal is now flex also.
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    Yeah, they said that LFR will still be LFR; Flex is the new Normal; the old Heroic is now Normal (both use Flex Tech) and Mythic is the 20 person raid that I guess is the new heroic. Not sure I like this, being in a 10 man guild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Yeah, they said that LFR will still be LFR; Flex is the new Normal; the old Heroic is now Normal (both use Flex Tech) and Mythic is the 20 person raid that I guess is the new heroic. Not sure I like this, being in a 10 man guild.
    Indeed. I was toying with the thought of actually trying to raid in the new expansion...until they announced that heroic (or mythic or whatever) is 20 man only...
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    It's my understanding that Heroic isn't getting easier. Mythic is just a step up from that in difficulty. So if you enjoy 10-man Heroic, then you're still fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    It's my understanding that Heroic isn't getting easier. Mythic is just a step up from that in difficulty. So if you enjoy 10-man Heroic, then you're still fine.
    NOoooooooooooooooo why do people not get it look at the graph Fetz linked. :P

    Flex in MoP is renamed to normal in WoD, so normal mode will be as hard as flex now
    Normal in MoP is renamed to heroic in WoD, so heroic mode will be as hard as normal now
    Heroic in MoP is renamed to Mythic in WoD, so yeah 10HC is really gone.

    It's basically a rename of stuff, because having 2 difficulties with the "flexible" system and calling only one of them flexible doesn't make sense.

    They are not nerfing any difficulty, they are not adding a new difficulty. They are just normalizing Heroic (now called Mythic) to 20 people and giving normal (now heroic) the flexible system. Hope that cleared it up :P

  12. #12
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    I'm guessing they made the top difficulty a fixed number of people so they could tune it tightly, something they couldn't do as well for a flexible number of toons. Absolute control over how many adds come out, how many HP mobs have, etc. In flex, there would be breakpoints, such as at 20, there's 4 adds, but at 17, there's only 3. We all know that any guild doing Mythic, if it was flexible, would find those breakpoints and take full advantage of them. Also, spacing can be an issue when they absolutely know how many people they have to deal with. They can set the separation ranges to fill the room for 20 people, while on flex/normal, they would need to set it to allow 25, for example.

    Makes sense. Also, only Mythic guilds will be 20-man. The rest of them can be whatever.

    Edit: I think 15 might have been a better number, but, I don't really have a horse in this race, so, you can either raid Mythic at 20, or do the flexible difficulties, that's your choices. (Or don't raid at all, of course)

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    Yeah, GC Tweeted that they where having too hard a time balancing 10 and 25, with 10s rather variable group compositions and wierd place for tank damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Yeah, GC Tweeted that they where having too hard a time balancing 10 and 25, with 10s rather variable group compositions and wierd place for tank damage.
    So they just decided "well...can't balance it...guess this 'you can really raid as a 10 man guild' thing is a failure...fuck it"

    Cool.

    Not that I raid anymore...missed that bus this expansion, but I'd have considered it for the new one...except they gave up on the format I enjoyed and now it's 25 ma..oh TWENTY man, sorry...so much better...or GTFO.

    Ten man guilds only have to double their roster...that shouldn't be too bad right? At least 25 mans don't have to do a goddamn thing...that seems like a good compromise.
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    I lead a hardcore 10 man guild and yeah it's gonna be a pain in the ass to expand to the new 20 man and the first tier of WoD might be rough. However, I totally understand why they are doing this and actually agree it's for the best of the game in the long run. As to why they chose 20 and not say, 15, I think because 20 will be much more similar to 25, which is the raid size they first and foremost design the bosses for, before porting them over to 10 man. 15 man would resemble 10-man way more than 25 man, and since they are used to designing for 25 man, I guess they wanted to stick to what they can design best, not to mention maybe now they can implement those "great ideas for boss mechanics that just couldn't be ported that well in 10-man" like they said in Blizzcon.

    I think they are making a great job with the changes to the raiding sizes overall.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    NOoooooooooooooooo why do people not get it look at the graph Fetz linked. :P

    Flex in MoP is renamed to normal in WoD, so normal mode will be as hard as flex now
    Normal in MoP is renamed to heroic in WoD, so heroic mode will be as hard as normal now
    Heroic in MoP is renamed to Mythic in WoD, so yeah 10HC is really gone.

    It's basically a rename of stuff, because having 2 difficulties with the "flexible" system and calling only one of them flexible doesn't make sense.

    They are not nerfing any difficulty, they are not adding a new difficulty. They are just normalizing Heroic (now called Mythic) to 20 people and giving normal (now heroic) the flexible system. Hope that cleared it up :P
    This sounds utterly, ridiculously stupid. Why even change it around for that? Meh... good news is that there are other promising MMO's on the horizon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    I lead a hardcore 10 man guild and yeah it's gonna be a pain in the ass to expand to the new 20 man and the first tier of WoD might be rough. However, I totally understand why they are doing this and actually agree it's for the best of the game in the long run. As to why they chose 20 and not say, 15, I think because 20 will be much more similar to 25, which is the raid size they first and foremost design the bosses for, before porting them over to 10 man. 15 man would resemble 10-man way more than 25 man, and since they are used to designing for 25 man, I guess they wanted to stick to what they can design best, not to mention maybe now they can implement those "great ideas for boss mechanics that just couldn't be ported that well in 10-man" like they said in Blizzcon.

    I think they are making a great job with the changes to the raiding sizes overall.
    I completely agree with you, I'm going to talk about this ad nauseam in my next ARB.
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  18. #18
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    I watched Hazzikostas defend the choice pretty often on the Q & A panels up to the point where he kinda got tired telling people that it was basicly the lesser of two evils and from a developer PoV 20 makes actually more sense, but it's still going to be shit converting the majority of the guilds into new ones.


    I'll help Agg out here and throw all the different arguments in for 15 vs 20 man size, with my own thoughts on them:

    a) 20 man makes it extremely unlikely you won't have at least 1 of every class around.
    In my own guild, our roster doesn't have a Rogue, I'm the only Shaman, until recently, we had no Warrior... This makes it hard to create any fight where a specific class ability can come into play. With 20 people, you can basicly have a roster of, say, 2 characters per class and only need to sub 2 per fight (the melee obviously), guaranteeing the availability of class specific abilities. In a 15man setup, this becomes really hard, because half the classes will only be represented by a single person, so you NEED that guy to get past a boss fight, even if you have it on farm for ages. It also makes it easier to have all raid buffs around, so developers can create fights assuming you have them.

    b) No matter what they do, guilds are going to be screwed in roster setting.
    With roughly 30% of current heroic raider being in 25man (rough estimate based on progress logging data), a large portion of the players is going to have to find a new home regardless of what they do. I think Blizzard opted here for the slightly less convenient change, so that in the long haul, design balance is going to be tuned more in depth. I do fear that they forget here that we will see some people leave anyway, making it even easier on 25mans, because they don't need to replace anyone and maybe 10man player guilds having to merge with 3 at once, where lots of dramaz will ensue.

    c) Graphics and 1970s PCs
    With 20 players instead of 10 in a raid instance, that means twice the frostbolts, twice the healing stuff on the floor... This will make the CPU/GPU requirements harder for financially less secure people that want to step into Mythic raids, as their PC won't be able to handle all that stuff. This is especially true for friends and family guilds that do heroic raiding on 10man currently.

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    I'm in a HC 10s guild... not by choice really, we used to be 25s, but as the time went by we lost players and couldn't find enough new ones to keep going. I get why they're doing this, and I even like it, but I do worry about our guild. Assuming the 25s guilds reduce their numbers through natural turnover, it basically means half of all 10s HC guilds will go to the wall (or will have to give up on HC raids, which means people will leave, so their raiding dies anyway). It'll be better in the long run, but the infighting to recruit and survive is gonna be a bloody mess for a while
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  20. #20
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    I think the number of guilds will go down, and the format of 10man HC raiding will disappear, no doubt, but I don't think there will be that significant of a decrease in HC raiders overall. I think it will mainly be the Ions that just hate people (with good reason, no doubt) that will stop hardcore raiding or playing all together.

    10 man raids cause a lot of problems with loot distribution, class balance, encounter balance, etc. Having said that I'm not sure I buy "encounter balance between 10s and 25s" when everything else becomes flexraiding except for HC.

    I'm definitely going to be watching all of the panels n shit and reading as much as I can over the next few days, and will be very interested to see what happens between now and the new xpac. I will be talking about this a LOT

    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post

    Did I miss anything?
    Loot distribution in 10 mans "oh look spell leather dropped" *has zero spell leather raiders*

    This is all fixed by the flexloot system for the other difficulties, but is still a MAJOR issue for 10 man guilds, especially 10 man HC guilds.
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