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Thread: Looking for input if you have a moment.

  1. #1
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    Looking for input if you have a moment.

    Hi the name is Valarauca and I'm a longer time raider, software developer, but shorter time game designer.


    I'm currently working on a purely PvE based game with a more 'WoW' feel to it as I feel this is a need that is not currently filled in the gaming industry, and WoW is no longer filling it by forcing raiders to do way to much work, just to raid.


    I've prepared a short questionnaire I'd like you fill out if possible (11 questions). It just asks primarily about old vs new mechanics (namely how support classes and taunts are handled), as well as gear choices/customization.


    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k1x...sNt8w/viewform
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  2. #2
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    Done.

    What do you mean by too much work required "just to raid"? Do you mean farming consumables? Optimizing gear?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  3. #3
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  4. #4
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    @Dreador

    The generally idea I'm going for is to reduce the game to purely raiding.

    Make character, find guild, do raids. You can be in client in the general chat channels to find a pug. But generally speaking the only time you'll be in a '3d' environment is when your raiding.

    It's sort of high concept and partially flawed since the reason most people play WoW isn't to raid, but to actually do quests, socialize, etc. Who are the vast majority of its player base, which I'm not really targeting. I'm targeting the people who log in, raid, log out. They raid because they enjoy it, or they enjoy the guild their with.

    And I believe there is enough people their to make a game out/for as an experiment/time sync.

    :.:.:

    My theory is a lot of the questing, grinding, work you do in an MMO to reach end game is more a money grab then anything else by forcing players to play longer (also conditioning them to accept longer reward intervals). This removes most of this, hopping to hold its subscriber base with just good constantly timed content. The current goal is to release raids quarterly, and use a single stock circular environment to cut down on the art load to maybe 8-10 model every quarter to allow for decent polish on the gear.

    The raid 'balancing' will be done without respect to PvP (if its ever even impliemented), in order to keep the PvE working properly. I.E.: I don't care if blood death knights own face in 2's, they still need to be able to tank in raids, etc.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  5. #5
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    Don't underestimate the need for a new environment every now and again though, I was sick of that arena for Trial of the (grand) crusader after a couple of weeks.

  6. #6
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    too short/too long
    incorporated
    time sink

    Done, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  7. #7
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    The support class question is a bad question, implementation of support classes is integral to the tuning of content and the classes themselves.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #8
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    I don't mean to be toxic and I did fill in your questionnaire, but basically you are trying to create a game that offers raiding like WoW does (most likely of poorer quality since how can you possibly compete with Blizzard in encounter design when big studios like Bioware fail to bring anything as good as WoW's raids), minus all the extra things WoW offers, with the same combat system (hotkey based)?

    Unless you spice it up and add an action/skilled based combat system that is actually enjoyable to play, I really see no demographic to this, cause nobody has so far managed to do hotkey-based combat and raiding in general better than WoW.

    If you offer a game that's basically just gameplay and nothing else, you need to make sure that gameplay is darn enjoyable and well executed. Think about it, who actually enjoys spamming their characters' hotkeys? It's not the gameplay itself people enjoy in WoW, it's hunting for and achieving goals such as gear, tackling difficult encounters, etc. And since WoW DOES execute the hotkey combat very competently and the system does not get in the way of achieving your personal goals, people are fine with it.

  9. #9
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    The support class question is a bad question, implementation of support classes is integral to the tuning of content and the classes themselves.
    I'd really beg to differ. See a properly designed support class should be ideally transparent to game play (sort of).

    If lets say you have a 'support' class who gives 2 buffs spell power and haste, which both are generically good, but for every class they will not be the same level of good since different classes and specs scale on different stats, so one class may scale on crit better then haste and therefore not be as useful. Further more to the point bringing a support to a DPS check with little movement may not be preferable since haste may affect DOT classes more who are more useful in multi-target and higher movement fights to NOT bring a support at all since the support's delta dps across ~5 rDPS will be less then another rDPS.

    This is a very real problem, but it doesn't have to do fully with the tuning of content, but more or less the support's mechanics in and of itself. Now its fairly easy to sort this by giving the support class have a buff 'haste' or buff 'crit' share a cool down and require the same resource so then it comes down to choice of the raid what buff will benefit them more, and in which scenario, this allow allows for the buffs to swapped within a fight.

    But this still raises questions of the viability of support in a multi-encounter raid environment AND a multi-size raid game. See even if you have a support who will provide lets say 8% magic damage and 15% crit or haste which boils down to ~32% damage buff (stacked multiplicative), this doesn't work in a 5man setting, as well at it works in say a 20man setting, I.E.: 5 rDPS with a 32% buff will do the dps of 6.6 rDPS (which means over 6 people you have a 60% dps gain), but in a 5 man 1 support + 1 rDPS won't do the damage of >2 rDPS, or even 2 rDPS but only 1.32 rDPS, which is bad because you only have 2 rDPS slots to fill.

    The easiest way to solve this problem is to give the support their own buffs back if unused. But this also fails to an extent. In the event that you don't bring rDPS but bring an rDPS support the rDPS's buffs instead activate his own personal god mode in order to bring him in line with other rDPS, if not ahead of them. Now this means you aren't being punished for bring an rDPS support in an rDPS role. But this buff would have to dynamic, to an extent. Lets say you have an encounter where the boss is tossing 'bombs' at players, these bombs will bring a player down to 90% health, and do equal splash damage to anyone within 7 meters. Now this works if you having a 'sliding average' aka where the number of players affecting relates to the rDPS's damage, up to a point.

    Why up to a point?

    Lets say you have a pure dps check encounter and b/c patches/randomness currently rDPS preform 2% better the melee so at the high end this matters. At this point in a pure 'patchwerk' style fight, you can have all your rDPS stack with your support, and you'll have 2 healers and 2 tanks (series dps check). But if you stick with this scenario discounting tank and healer damage your support will give your encounter the equal to 27 rDPS, mean you could equally effectively fight the encounter with 31 players (working off of a 25man raid, 2 tanks, 2 healers 21 rDPS), a net gain of 6 rDPS players. Now your forced to decide if you make encounter with this in mind, that a 25man fight will actually be bring 30 players worth of DPS to the encounter, or you make yourself as a game designer susceptible to that outcome and see guilds breezing past your fights without a care in the world.

    So you make a top end sliding too OR cap the number of players that can be buffed, or that will be buffed by a support's buffs, which means you either have to bring more supports, or diversify your raid group which is the goal.

    Now with that in mind you can design a mathematical curve that solves for the 'affect' a supports damage does in every scenario (logically a linear on). While its no a prefect model its good enough to move into play testing where the buff's interactions with players rotations can be studied in detail.

    So no, a properly designed support will cover these bases (or should) and shouldn't outwardly affect raid design in a way. Simply put a support + 4 rDPS should just give the damage of ~5.5 rDPS.

    :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. :.:.:.:.:.:.:.:

    @Valaras

    The main thing about doing something is you have to be prepared to accept criticism. And I believe this is the main critism I will have leavied against me.

    1) Other more well funded studios have tried and failed (SWtOR, ESO, Aion)
    2) More funding = better art

    And these are undeniable but I have no plan on stopping just because of that. Primarily because of the limited scope of the game it gives me a slight advantage when it comes to encounter/class design.

    In WoW when the class design department/person says 'Spec Y is 10% behind Spec Z we need to fix this', the simplest solution is to look the rotation find the spelling that is most lacking and bring it up to par. But that doesn't work in WoW. For example, the simplest way to balance frost/fire in mage damage output at the end of WoWLK would be to increase frost bolt's cast, while increasing its damage to 150% its standard cast/damage ratio. Allowing better scaling from gear and removal of an pre-mature haste cap in frost DPS. The problem with this then becomes, frost is OP in PvP (well more OP since it already was OP).

    My game ideally won't suffer from these problem.

    Think about it, who actually enjoys spamming their characters' hotkeys
    A decent number of people actually enjoy the WoW raid style, and want a game that does what WoW does but only better. My goal isn't to kill wow, its just to do one small aspect of it far better then it currently does with less game hassle. A small minority like WoW's raids, they just don't want all the things that WoW also does or primarily force them to do in order to min/max at high end raiding (which they're forced by their guild).
    Last edited by leethaxor; 10-08-2013 at 11:42 AM. Reason: holy spaces batman
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

  10. #10
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    My point was that the support classes importance is directly proportional to how well they are implemented.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    My point was that the support classes importance is directly proportional to how well they are implemented.
    My point was I wasn't going to half ass a classes implementation :P

    I can actually design classes around raids and their ability to perform within a raid, this is something that Blizzard couldn't do in 2002 when they were writing the game.
    [Today 06:48 PM] Ion:swimming in a natural body of water ISN'T acceptable...it's momentarily tolerable

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