Tall Order: Criticism for my Raid
I'm asking for a rather large bit of help, if any are willing.
I'm the raid leader of a 10-man raiding group that's had its fair struggles all expansion long. We always seem to hit that "wall" in progression that takes weeks upon weeks to get through, and for Siege, Galakras has been that wall. I've taken a closer look to see what is/isn't happening with our raid and I've kinda hit a wall myself. I know our composition isn't the best - (Tanks: 2 Paladins / Healers: Priest-Monk-Shaman / DPS: Mage(Frost)-DK(Frost)-Hunter(Survival)-2 Priest) - but for the sake of finishing the expansion, I didn't think it would be a problem. Kind of a "working with what we have" situation. But, I've always worried that we had poor DPS, and by that I mean skill in effectively pulling on average what the class/spec/gear is capable of. Though of late, I've been told that a bigger problem is really our class comp, which features some of the poorest and slowest possible DPS specs in the game. I've had to walk many of our raiders through the class rotation guides on Icy Veins to some good success about the time of Heart of Fear raiding, then mandate keeping up with Ask Mr Robot for Reforge/Gem/Enchants to make sure we're at our most effective, but like I said, I'm just not sure anymore where our problems lie. Do I have poor DPSers? Or do I have good players with bad specs?
I have a couple of logs I can share.
- The first is our regular raid composition from a couple weeks back:
- This is one of our more recent go's at Galakras, our current "wall", with a fill-in for our Hunter who wasn't able to make it:
We dropped Thunder King prior to Siege and Heroic Jinrok, which I think means we should be able to handle normal mode at the very least, but of late, I'm starting to wonder. If anyone could share anything they notice, I would appreciate any constructive criticism.
Before anybody goes diving through combat logs, could you detail your strategy for Galakras? Perhaps you are doing something wrong.
A quick look at stuff
- One of the pallies appears to still be using GoSoI
- Mage doesn't keep their Bomb Spell up
- Lots of people staning in Flaming arrows
- Healers look bored, maybe 2 heal it
- Tank DPS seems Low.
You just don't have good DPSers I'm afraid. Your setup is more than OK in my opinion. I mean your elemental shaman is doing so low I have no idea how, since all he has to to is chain lightning. No clue why your mage is playing frost when arcane absolutely dominates this patch, but that's about it. That being said, that healing tide totem the shaman mob drops does a shit ton of healing on those adds, around 100 million. Just make sure you focus it down very very quickly, your paladin tank should be able to drop it really quick even on his own.
Other than that, if you ask for advice you should also say exactly what in the fight you are having trouble with, though as I see it you just cannot DPS down each wave before the next.
Thank you for the responses thus far, I should have included our strategy for Galakras so far. We've used two:
1. Two healing
- This strat had two 5 man teams (as videos have suggested) with one tank and one healer each.
Tower Team: Paladin tank, Priest healer, Frost DK, Frost Mage, Shadow Priest
Ground Team: Paladin tank, Monk healer, Ele Shaman, Shadow Priest, Survival Hunter
So, together, we burn down adds until first demolisher is up, kill demolisher, then tower team assaults first tower. They come down, help with adds until second demolisher, we all kill demolisher, then tower team assaults tower 2. We coordinate adds with pulling boss, boss lands, we split up into 2 teams on the ground and start jumping behind ground group to absorb dmg from fireball, then switch groups around 5 stacks to ease healing.
With this strat, we find it hard getting TO the dragon boss phase, let alone living far into it. If the Shaman don't die, we get Bonecrushers and a single tank can't interrupt both shaman and bonecrusher, let alone another wave with more of each.
2. Three Healing
- This strat uses two 5-man teams.
Tower Team: Paladin Tank, Shaman Healer, Frost DK, Shadow Priest, Frost Mage
Ground team: Paladin Tank, Monk Healer (fist weaving), Disc Priest (atonement healing), Survival Hunter, Shadow Priest
Together, we all burn adds up to and including the first demolisher. Tower team assaults first tower, then drops to finish adds and next demolisher, but stays to help with the next set of adds. They assault second tower, drop back into group and use the same strategy of splitting up the damage from the fireball.
With this strat, we have the most success getting back into the dragon boss phase, but we have the hardest time cleaning up adds before the dragon drops, be it because shaman/bonecrushers aren't killed before the next wave, or because we lose people going into the phase.
Note: When we split into a two heal strat, we push our Resto Shaman to go Ele, leaving our Monk and Priest to continue healing. His gear is still mostly gem/reforged/enchanted to Healing, so he pulls what he can. We try to single target Shaman/Bonecrushers when up, but for the life of me, they just don't die fast enough using 2 healer strat, let alone 3 healer strat. Also, with our Hunter having been gone the last couple weeks, we've been using fill-ins of a Rogue or (another) shadow priest to stay raiding. We've mixed up our DPS among the two teams a bit because of this, but yet to find a solid build that allows us to stay ahead or at least keep up with the waves of adds coming out. Mage/Spriest was the last ground team setup we had in the second log above.
Um you interupt the shaman, you stun the bone crushers out of their channel, it's not interuptable. Anyone with a stun can stop the bonecrushers. All paladins have a stun, all shaman have a stun, all monks have access to a stun, all DKs have acces to stun Frost mages have a stun, and anyone with an interupt can interupt the shaman, not just the tanks, All mages have an interupt, all monks have an interupt, all paladins have an interupt, all DKs have an interupt, all shaman have an interupt, and all hunters have an interupt. You need to make sure every knows how to use their class, not just how to DPS.
Just looking at the attempt you linked you're also really bad at stomping the shaman's totems; they did nearly 70 million effective healing, that more than half of the dragons health.
Is one DPS jumping into each the cannons on the tower as soon as the tower boss dies? they should be able to take out some of the protodrakes bombing the ground.
In the burn phase on Galakras, forget clearing you stacks, only tanks should do that, have everyone stack on the dragon's ass (should be around Lorthemar's starting position), and have whomever the ball targeted on run out the back and once they've been hit, truturn to the dragons ass. the ieda is everyone gets hits by the ball, to the explosion is as light as it can be, the healers will have to deal with the stacking dot, but as 8 out 10 of you are stacked healing rain/SCK should hit everyone except the tanks. the tanks want to swap around every 3 stacks or so and if the tank who doesn't have aggro position themselve properly they should still be able to DPS.
As an extra on tower teams:
While my guild probably has a more geared (and possibly skilled) team, we manage to 2heal this fight relatively easy, leaving us with the extra DPS at the bottom. But I would still think the following strategy adjustments might help you:
* Keep the Shaman on the ground, let him help interrupt the War Shaman and drop Grounding Totem if needed. Make sure all the ground people are in the same group for Grounding.
* The healer in the tower can always help with DPS on the miniboss if needed through atonement/fist weaving.
* Your ground tank should have the 30s stun talent for this fight just so he can do nearly all of the stuns needed on Bonecrushers. Make sure you have a DPS assigned to stun the second crusher in a pack if there is one.
* Our Paladin tank uses Holy Prism as well on this fight, casting it on himself during the waves and on the boss in the last phase. Light's Hammer might still be preferred for the tank doing towers (help AoE heal = healer can help DPS)
* I'm not sure Halo would be the preferred talent for this fight for your tower Priests. I would think Cascade helps your Disc Priest far more in the tower, while the shadow priest going up might want to Divine Star, as neither will be standing far enough from their targets to get the most out of Halo. Talk to your Priests, ask what they think.
* I would send up the Hunter instead of the Mage in the tower, but that may depend on their awareness and capabilities.
* If you can, send the shadow priest + tank/healer down from the tower once the boss is dead to help finish up the adds on the ground. The other two DPS should be able to clear the last 3 adds on their own and they won't be taking damage anyway.
* Advanced tactic: If your tower healer is good enough, your tank & DK can start on the first pack of tower adds, pulling them just out the doorway while ranged kill the demolisher, but this would give you more flaming arrows, which your DPS seem to like to hug.
* Same setup and ideas as above, with some extras:
* Your Shaman should be able to Chain Lightning most of the packs, while at the same time still doing the interrupt & grounding for the War Shaman. You should be able to bounce CL off of Healing Tides & Banners, so maybe have him make a macro to target those ASAP? That way you always have atleast 1 person killing the annoying stuff while the rest focuses on getting the Bonecrusher down. (Plus, as you can't expect him to do awesome single target nuke DPS, it might be better to put him on a utility job)
* IF the damage on the ground is too much, look and see if you can't take the shadow priest from the tower and keep him on the ground. As long as your ground team can keep the waves under control, your tower team only need to finish just before the next tower opens. Again, this purely depends on how well your DPS perform their jobs.
* If you are going for a 5man tower team with 2 healers, definitely have your Priest go up with them, so he can smite down the demolisher before going up. It shortens the time until you capture the tower while still giving you some healing at the start of the wave.
I hope that gave you some ideas on how to improve your tactics.
PS: Don't forget to click the rope on top of the first tower, it will allow you to climb up really fast once you are ready on the second one.
We three heal it and our burn phase is a bit different, we put the range and healers stacked by the entrance to the pier and whoever gets targeted runs back down the pier. It gave us reference point to run down when we were struggling on this the first week and we've just kept it that way. Dragon faces away from the raid and any melee that get targeted by the ball run back through the ranged. Granted we did this since icy-veins' guide early on said melee didn't get targeted by the ball.
Dropping stacks, as has been pointed out, is not really that critical for other than the tanks; lessening the aoe damage is more impt.
Also, flaming arrows, people need to move the ticks actually hurt as you stand there - DBM should be screaming and people just need to side step, not a big deal.
What my guild found helpful was 3 manning the towers. Myself (prot pally), our resto shammy, and our fury warrior. We basically get in there and get it cleared with just enough time to drop down, finish off the second Demolisher and run up the second tower in one clean swoop. The warrior does the cannon and just kinda hauls ass across the road straight to the tower when he's done.
For this to work you obviously need to have 3 rather solid players on tower, but if you can beat the DPS requirement of finishing the tower before the next one starts, it is entirely worth it since the ground team just has a much smoother time and almost no add buildup.
Once we finish the second tower I run across the road, the warrior stays in the tower 2 cannon, and we just immediately pull the boss unless there is a wave of adds inbound. I'm able to jump down and get threat on the boss immediately and the raid stacks on the bosses ass while the tanks stand about 10 yards apart in front of the boss.
And if one of your prot pallies is just a complete badass, you can go ahead and try to two man the towers with 1 tank and one dps like I ended up doing a few times last night cause my guild was having a derp of a farm night and our resto shammy got killed repeatedly -_-
I really wish I had a log of that crap.
Last edited by Gregasaurous; 10-10-2013 at 06:16 PM.
We just downed this boss for the first time last week, so we may have just gotten lucky, but what we found needed doing was to keep our three heavy DPS on the ground and four man the tower (weak DPS tank, healer, two DPS) since if your ground team gets overrun, you're toast.
Assign your heaviest DPS the job of pseudotanking the shaman, since he stands at the back unless pulled into the group, and it takes the pressure off your ground tank to watch interrupts on him _and_ the Bonecrushers if you have the waves occasionally overlap like we did. Have your ground tank keep the rest of the pack away from the shaman and his healing tide totems if you're running behind, or to help burn him down if you aren't.
Our group has about 110K DPS over yours despite your group in the log you posted 5.5 DPSing it, with all five of our DPS having our legendary cloaks, plus one tank using the DPS cloak and epic meta (*whistles innocently*) and we're barely keeping up with some of the enrage timers as we learn the fights. The gear check is pretty harsh starting with Norushen, IMHO, and your best bet is to do what we did -- if you keep bashing your head on the wall, drop down to Flex for the week -- it's substantially easier and has almost as good gear.
Also, you don't need to bring down Galakras immediately after clearing the second tower. We brought the tower team down to clean up the last adds and sent someone up right as the last wave was near death to bring her down after that -- there's a little wiggle room to clean stuff up in there.
A good barometer is for tower one, send 2 DPS up with the tank and healer and notice how much time you have left after the wave with the shaman is dead. Ours had 21 seconds left before the next adds, but only 3 when we lost the third DPS for tower two, so tiny mistakes cost us the attempt.
Mostly it's just practice and getting the rhythm down. If you're already getting to the dragon phase reliably, just hold up a few seconds to clean up the last wave and you should be good.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the friendly NPCs in this fight actually can help you some. Make sure the sets of adds are pulled at least back into the big flamestrike that one of the NPCs drops. I know it can look scary, but its hurting the enemy adds, not you. This can account for a large chunk of extra damage done to all of the mobs.
As for the towers, as some have mentioned, gauge how quickly you are getting down the boss at the top so as to say how many people to send up and DEFINITELY once the tower is clear, have one of your dps hop into the cannon and kill off all the dragons in the sky (except of course the boss). That accounts for a large bit of spikey damage at this point on top of flame arrows. Take the time to clear the skies for sure.
Lastly, you don't HAVE to drop the boss down as soon as you are done with the second tower. You can wait for the tower team (minus one dpser who stays up and then eventually another dpser to go to the first tower when you are ready) to hop down and help clean up adds. There are usually a few shaman up at this point, lock em down, blow em up. You can even wait until the little protodrakes spawn (which is well after you are likely to have the second tower dead). Then wait until those drakes are almost dead and send up your cannon guys to shoot down the boss. As someone mentioned, the rope helps get those people up quickly but do whatever you need to do.
I'll examine the logs for the "poor dps" complaints and see if I can add anything more than what has already been said. Just keep at it, this one is a little bit of a brick wall for guilds such as yours given what you said about last tier.
yeah the thing with bringing them back to our NPCs is paramount, we wasted an entire night of dying on the Galakras burn phase until we realiese the NPCs where nigh doubling our raid DPS.