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Thread: How to improve?

  1. #1
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    How to improve?

    Hi,

    This may seem like a silly question, but I'm hoping that you guys at Tankspot may be able to help me. What I need to know is how to improve in terms of increasing DPS and HPS.

    Now, I'm not asking for anyone to give me specific advice for my character, this is for my guild and what I need to know is – what is the process for improving your performance?

    Let me explain. We reforge according to Mr Robot, we do rotations according to Icy Veins, we do raid strats according to video guides (yours of course) yet we find that our HPS and DPS are way below other people (as shown by Recount when we do LFR, Heroic 5-mans etc).

    I've tried taking Alts through dungeons and taking combat logs of other players, then comparing them to my Main in the same dungeon. All they show me is that they use the same rotation as I do but their individual attacks do much more damage, even when I outgear them. I check out their characters on the Armory as well and see nothing very different from my character. There's obviously something that we are missing but the problem is in finding out what it is.

    As I'm sure you know, if you ask for advice on the Blizzard forums (at least on the EU forums), the only advice you will get will be “learn to play”, “give up playing WoW”, “you are just bad” etc etc. These aren't really helpful.

    I've also tried some of the “how to play your character” guides on YouTube but they seem to follow the same formula: here are the talents, here are the glyphs, here is the rotation – now watch me do this boss/training dummy/dungeon. This doesn't really add anything useful.

    So, is anyone able to help by describing a process for improving performance that includes whatever it is that we are missing? As I say, I'm not looking for anyone to do our work for us – just to advise us of an improvement process that we can follow. Thanks.

  2. #2
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    How to improve?

    I'm going to bet that you guys are "doing something wrong," in the sense that maybe you're missing procs/buffs/debuffs etc. I don't say that to sound mean at all, and I'm not saying you're bad, I'm just assuming there are more factors at play here other than "I'm doing everything this person is doing, why are they out dpsing me." I would suggest three things. First, post a link to a log where the same class is out dpsing you. Second, link your armory, and lastly, I would suggest downloading a simcraft to sim you're toon and see what it says your dps should be. Also, I'm not sure about dps/healing, but AMR isn't very reliable for tanks, and possibly the other classes, as it places too much weight on certain stats unless you go in and literally say I want x stats.

  3. #3
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    Post the following:

    Armory link
    WoL link
    Guide you have been using up until now


  4. #4
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    Thanks, but I purposefully avoided posting armoury links and logs. This is for the guild, not just myself and I also want us to find an improvement process that we can use generically.


    If I were to post links to individual characters or logs of specific fights, wouldn't it just lead to advice on changing details for that character or for that fight?


    I do appreciate your offers to look at logs and characters, but wouldn't we then be back in the same situation when we moved on to another fight or the next time we changed our gear?

  5. #5
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    How to improve?

    The logs are to see what you're doing when certain things happen, not to be like "for this fight spam lightning bolt" type deals. It's to see what people are doing and from there, we can give advice on how to improve everyone. There is not a generic statement that will improve everyone though.


    Edit - you're asking us to help you, but when we ask for things to help you, you say you're avoiding it because x, y, and z. If you want advice, that is not how it works. If you post links, many people gave give you insight on the things they see and help everyone as a whole.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    Thanks, but I purposefully avoided posting armoury links and logs. This is for the guild, not just myself and I also want us to find an improvement process that we can use generically.
    If somebody gets better on a certain fight, then they'll automatically improve everywhere else.


    If I were to post links to individual characters or logs of specific fights, wouldn't it just lead to advice on changing details for that character or for that fight?
    There are about half a dozen actual mechanics that demand a different response. When you have learned how to deal with each of them then you will find it much easier to learn a new fight, and to push your DPS and healing higher.

    I do appreciate your offers to look at logs and characters, but wouldn't we then be back in the same situation when we moved on to another fight or the next time we changed our gear?
    We're talking about general stuff, like "use chain lightning when lots of adds spawn". Possibly even "you aren't keeping 100% uptime of that buff/debuff". No way to tell until we see links (and therefore no realistic way to help you).

  7. #7
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    I understand. I didn't wish to appear ungrateful.

    Here's last night's Horridon wipes:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xe93915w1oup533u/

  8. #8
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    Your Tanks (and other DPS) are keeping less than 70% uptime on weakened blows on Horridon across all fights. THey should be aiming for near 99% or better uptime. Brew masters generally should be using Keg smash on CD, on the Jin'rohk Kill your's used 22, using it on CD he should have had 36.

    The druid healers uptime on lifebloom is questionable, there's two druid healers and two tanks, each druid should take a tank, and make sure he has life bloom up the entire fight.

    The warrior appears to have left battle stance for the last 3 attempts I assume for Berserker Stance. I doubt Icy veins recommends that.

    • On the first Horridon wipe the Tank dies becuase he didn't time ShotR with a triple puncture
    • On the second horrdon kill, you lost a numpteeki becuase he got aggro, between feighn death and misdirect(which he uses scantily) that shouldn't really happen
    • Third try you lost a tank becuase he stood and shit and went 8 seconds without a direct (or indirect heal)
    • Try four you lost the monk tank to a triple puncture, it was only 8 stacks its hard to attribute whose responsibile but with 3 healers and he seems to be not getting the healing he needs.
    • Try 5 healer stood in shit
    • Try 6 healer stood in double swipe, lost a tank later due to lack of direct heals, Druids should be hotting tanks pre-emptively.
    • Try 7 Healer stood in Frozen Orb
    • Try 8 Monk tanks stood in Frozen Orb
    • Try 9 Warrior stood in shit, healer died to a combination of of missed interupts and unavoidable damage.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #9
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    Thank you for taking the trouble of looking at the log and explaining the problems we had with that fight.

    It's much appreciated, but what you've highlighted is a series of tactical errors that we made (with a few exceptions of course) for one encounter. This will be helpful for the Horridon fight I'm sure, but that's why I didn't originally post any links - I expected that it would move the thread away from my request for help with general improvement into a discussion about one fight.

    I've wracked my brains for an analogy and I'm afraid this is the best I can come up with...

    Imagine that a friend has bought a sports car and you take him to a track day to find out what he can do with it. He does a few laps and afterwards you look at the telemetry. You point out that he missed an apex on Corner A, braked too late on Corner B, was too late on the gas coming out of Corner C. He says "I'm sure you're right, but what I need is advice on how to drive a car fast". He needs general advice, not specifics on a particular circuit.

  10. #10
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    Based on what Teng said (I assume his take on the logs was accurate), you all should get a boss mod (DBM or BigWigs) and almost certainly in addition to that you should get GTFO so that when you're standing in shit there's ABSOLUTELY NO doubt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  11. #11
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    I think there's plenty of general advice in Tengen's post.
    Let me translate it for you.
    Your raiders need to work on their prorities and rotations. They are letting essential buffs lapse and doing some dinky things.
    Your healers need to focus better and need to learn how to communicate better.
    Your raid spends too much time standing in avoidable shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  12. #12
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    Track knowledge is key to driving fast, likewise encounter knowledge is key to performing well.

    Weakened blows uptime is applicable to every fight where theres physical damage. all tanks can put it up(and some DPS) and it should be maintained anytime a tank is doing non-trivial content. letting it fall off (or not having it up) is not a tactical error for one encounter, its a lack of baseline tanking knowledge or skill. Tanks should be tracking it and maintining it, they are not. not doing this makes the tanks take more damage and increases the chance they will die. Its like forgetting to take the hand brake off; it'll slow you down, and will inevitable lead to something bad happening

    The monk tanks lack of Keg smashes is not a encounter specific error either, its indicitives that he doesn't fully grasp his rotation, the primary part of which is using Keg smash on CD, not only is it your most energy efficient damage/threat ability, its your most energy efficient chi builder, and puts up weakened blows. He needs to use it on CD, if he needs to pool energy so he can use it on CD he should. the only time he would not want to use KS on CD would be eihter a)he wants die, or b) he does not want to kill the target. Closest car analogy i can think off is that his missing the powerband of the engine when changing gear, its gonna slow him down, and could lead to blowing the engine.

    Lifebloom uptime is applicable to every fight with restro druids and tanks it should be kept up, its not. and looking further in neither druid is maintaining their Harmony buffs either, both druids need to track these and maintain these at nigh 100% uptime. the only car analogy i can think off is that if you want to drive fast, keep all 4 tires on the tarmac 100% of the time

    Misdirect, feighn death use by hunters is class knowledge, MD is off GCD and has no cost, many hunters set up macros so they automaticlly MD their focus, this is great since it gives them a little bit of freedom to not wait for the tank to pick stuff up before they start DPSing, I cna't think of a decent car analogy for this. Feighn death on the other hand should be used any time the hunter gets aggro, its the equivalent of putting opposite lock on when your backend goes out.

    Prot Pallies timing ShotR is also a key tanking skill it does need to be managed, its not a case of i can use it there for i should use it. you need to feather the breakes, you don't just slam the pedal to floor before it corner, you feather it so you don't lock up.

    The warrior stance thing is even more ludicrous. DPS warriors stay in battle stance any time they want to DPS. Car analogy, if you want to drive fast, Do not exit the vehicle. Being in the vehicle is a key component of driving the vehicle fast.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 04-18-2013 at 09:16 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #13
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    Hopefully, this will be helpful and it's not calling anyone out, but it's using the tools in the toolbox based on the project. Let's take a look at your hunter. He's MM and a fight like Horridon and Tortos are pretty add intensive and require some burst to burn bad things i.e. Wastewalkers, Venom Priests, etc.

    I find for a fight like Horridon, Survival, with a spec into Thrill of the Hunter works very nicely. TotH procs like crazy, saves focus and lets you spam multi-shot and arcane shot. Frost Trap, Explosive Trap proc Lock and Loads which give you three focus free Explosive Shots. You get a ton of AoE and a lot of burst when you need it with Arcane shot/Explosove Shot.

    Here are the logs from a pug I was in on my hunter Wharfrat. Your hunter and I are pretty close gearwise. One thing that Teng pointed out, not MD'ing adds, I'm guilty of that too, but he makes a good point.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/x...ce/?s=87&e=716

    I'd suggest that you all review the fights with an eye to what would work best for you class - asking; what am I fighting? What spec best fits? what glyphs or talents give the most utility. etc.

  14. #14
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    Logs can tell you quite a lot usually, just looking at your Jinrokh kill. Things you can check number of abilities used for example your warrior should use MS every ~5 secs (jinrokh 4:53, 293/49=5.98sec my last kill had it every 5.29 sec) he's not doing bad but can get 5-6 more MS with a tighter rotation. He has chosen stormbolt over bloodbath, I prefer bloodbath but stormbolt isn't bad he should get 10 instead of 7 of them though, bloodbath might be easier to use in combination with dragonroar (macro it).

    You can check cooldown usage in the "buffs cast" tab click on # to see when they are used. Wind song instead of dancing steal and no potions used is suboptimal. Both times Koizumi casted recklessness he didn't have CS up, proper cooldown stacking/usage is important.

    Besides that you can check the graph and see if it fits your expectations for example non of your dps seem to burst at the start, prepot+trinket procs outweigh the damage bonus on Jinrokh I think. Or you can go to the expression editor and use
    sourcename= "Koizumi" to see all actions from that person its case sensative.

    Hope this helps
    Last edited by Bigbad; 04-18-2013 at 09:45 AM.

  15. #15
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    Thanks for the feedback everyone, I'll be discussing this with our Raid Leader.

  16. #16
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    I use a combination of NeedToKnow and WeakAuras to track my uptimes or alert me when something needs to happen.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #17
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    Things to ask yourself and your team. Are you using key binds? Are you using addons for cool down tracking? Rotation help? Ability ready to use? Macros for trinkets and large cool downs? Are you going to multiple sites to check guides? Tankspot has a great helpful community but there are a great deal of resources out there. Mmochampion, fluid druid, heal plus, inc bear, noxxic, etc. Don't limit yourself.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by artie View Post
    Things to ask yourself and your team. Are you using key binds? Are you using addons for cool down tracking? Rotation help? Ability ready to use? Macros for trinkets and large cool downs? Are you going to multiple sites to check guides? Tankspot has a great helpful community but there are a great deal of resources out there. Mmochampion, fluid druid, heal plus, inc bear, noxxic, etc. Don't limit yourself.
    I'm using DBM, GTFO, NeedToKnow, Autopsy, SpellFlash, Skada and Vuh'Do. Regarding multiple sites, one of the problems I have had is that they say different things - sometimes completely contradicting each other (I had a case where Noxxic told me to stack Dodge whereas Mr Robot told me to stack Crit).

    We're currently mainly using Mr Robot more for the fact that we are trying to get everyone using the same guide than that we have real faith in it.

  19. #19
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    THis is true. alot of guides will be slow to update for new data, and in the case of DPS stat weights can vary quite a lot based on gear, if you really want decent stat wieghts you're going to have to use a decent simulator Like Simcraft. TBH in your raids case i wouldn't worry too much about gear or stats or reforging, Mr Robot will get it sort of about right. I'd worry more about people watching their buffs and not being slow to use abilities or move out of stuff. Does everyone have something to help them track the things they need to track and are they tracking the the right things?
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  20. #20
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    The problem is there's no end-all-be-all guide.

    How do you improve? Learn.

    You (meaning all of you...english blows) need to learn the basics of your classes and roles...you need to pay attention to your debuffs, your cooldowns, your rotations, etc until you just KNOW them. That shouldn't even be part of your process...you should just know your rotations and how to react to things (like aggro, or bloodlust or boss damage buffs or what have you) without even thinking about it. Your healers should CONSTANTLY be watching their guys...they should know what tools they have in their tool boxes so that when a thing (say, a big raid-wide aoe) happens they have the proper tool queued up to deal with it. And your raid as a whole should know those things too...big aoe coming? Do we have a raid-wide CD ready for it? Do we NEED a raid-wide CD for it or are our healers cool with dealing without? Your tanks should know when the big spike is coming and have their active mitigation lined up, and if it's REALLY big or things have gone sideways, they need to know to use their big cooldowns.

    And you NEED to pay attention. You can't have jimmy-the-hunter (or whoever...it's always the hunter or rogue though) just sitting there, playing one handed, watching TV, eating cheetos and expect to do well. They need to know that THIS is what they're doing...not ONE of the things, THE thing.

    The difference between a guild wiping on easy normal mode bosses and a guild clearing difficult hard mode bosses is generally the attention they give to the exercise. Much like anything, a lot of people THINK they're putting in a lot of effort (I'M HERE AREN'T I?!), but in reality they're just going through the motions...if you REALLY want to be good you need to do more than just show up...you need to pay attention, know your role, know your role in the raid and know all the little (and big) things you can do to make the boss die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

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