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Thread: Ok tuning in SoO heroic

  1. #1
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    Ok tuning in SoO heroic

    After having killed the first 8 bosses on heroic, I have to say that the tuning for some of those has been on the "way too easy" side. Immerius started off as pretty decently challenging, at around the same difficulty as Jin-Rohk. We took like 15 attempts there. Then we went to protectors, that died withing 3 pulls. It did feel a bit weird but ok, it's only the beginning of the instance. Norushen afterwards was also fairly challenging, we spent a good 2 and a half hours of progress on it. Sha of Pride was also solid. But then Galakras... On our first attempt we wiped at like 10% of the drake's HP on the last phase, then in 2 attempts we killed it. After that, 2 solid bosses, Juggerunaut being a great healing check and Dark Shamans the hardest fight so far. And finally, Nazgrim. That honestly didn't feel that much different than normal, we 3 shot it again.

    The point I'm trying to make. I'm sure their intent was "let's have something fairly easier after a couple of hard bosses", but I think they overdid it this time around, there was no such pushover in ToT Heroic. That being said, my guild did improve and actually tested all of the heroic bosses on PTR but still it cannot be that we never even felt threatened to die at all on 3 out of 8 fights so far. I think Blizzard has messed the tuning up a bit this time around. Thankfully all the remaining bosses seem challenging, I'll update here if something is as faceroll.

    What do you guys think about this, is it OK to have the 5th and the 8th boss basically easier than the first?

  2. #2
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    This might just be because we're in 540+ gear, but normal mode SoO also feels rather unrewarding in its difficulty. I think it is a good thing to have some bosses easier than the others, it helps to keep morale up and rewards you for killing a hard boss. I think we'll have to wait another few weeks before saying whether or not the instance is too easy, but we killed Lei Shen normal in the week before it was released on LFR. We'll likely be at him on Sunday; a week or two before the second of four LFR wings releases. So our progress in SoO has definitely been quicker than in ToT (which we started with around 505 gear).

  3. #3
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    Well I'd say ToT normal was equally easy to SoO, we cleared it at mostly the same pace and that was without having tested ANY fight on PTR in T15 and having tested all and having killed some normals on PTR this time around. Additionally I'd say Garrosh was a bit more demanding than Lei Shen on normal. Anyway yeah it is nice to have something a bit easier after a tough kill, but on Nazgrim's case it was so easy that we all just felt disappointed...

    In ToT we had tortos after council and Ji-Kun after Megaera. Both easy but not 3-shot material. Exception was Iron Qon that we did 5-shot after Animus HC being really hard.
    Last edited by Valaras; 09-19-2013 at 04:20 PM.

  4. #4
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    I think gear matters a //LOT// more than in previous expansions, and this may be coloring views a bit.

    I'm doing normal mode SoO with people who are ~530ish geared. Some are almost 540, I was the lowest geared at 517 (got my legendary cloak though so up to 527 now!). The 4th boss on normal, Sha of Pride, was actually pretty difficult, and this guild's dps and healing is far superior to my previous guild's. We still got him in about an hour and a half, but it felt about "right".

    When gear matters THIS much (like that 10 ilevel jump, I've seen about a 15% increase in DPS, that's ridiculous), it gets REALLY hard to balance hardmodes for the people who can charge through and get world/region firsts, and for the people who may take a month to clear normal before they get into heroic just due to time spent. Time spent per boss may be less, but time spent per week progressing is even less than that because they typically have to go back and clear the previous tier.

    Idk. I think it's too hard to tell in the first week if any difficulty was "tuned right" unless there is a SIGNIFICANT disparity in either success or failure (like horridon before they nerfed it after week one, for example). Especially since you have to consider long-term tuning effects. This content has to last the 6-10 hour/week guilds about 4-6 months, right?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  5. #5
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    We were an iLvL 539 raid at the beginning of last week (that's not very high for a progression raid, we were server 11th iLvL). We went 12/14 week 1 and should get Garrosh sunday night here week 2. The only tier we ever cleared normals in two weeks before was Dragon Soul. Definitely a much more "normal" normal mode I'd say ... can't really speak to the heroics but looking like the "professional" guilds are chewing it up right quick ... first week of heroics and they're down to just a handful of bosses with 4 days left before the reset.
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  6. #6
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    I tend to agree with Agg, gear makes a huge difference these days - I think it's Blizzard's alternative to outright nerfing content like they did in DS or ICC i.e. nerf with gear and more so than in the past.

    Also, these fights feel really mechanic dependent so far (10/14 normal); where if you have the gear, once you master the mechanics the bosses go down. We're at about a 545 average ilvl and have yet to hit a boss where dps or healing has been in question. Not yet have I said, "man, the damage is insane, I can't keep up"; but there are a lot of the fights where we've had to say "stop standing in stupid"; "move out of that....". I don't know, it's tough to explain, but the fights just seem more dependent on personal responsibility and if the group is filled with competent raiders who know how to avoid bad stuff, your runs will be smooth and feel easy.

  7. #7
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    we really struggled on galkrass normal last night. we're only about 530 ilevel.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  8. #8
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    We have reached our gear inflection point on Garrosh. We are now 2 healing it and through judicious use of CDs and very solid play we should get a kill but yeah, it's a throughput fight in the sense that if you don't have the DPS you fall behind and the fight becomes too difficult. That said I could imagine at 530 the gear inflection point being Galakras (not enough dps to kill all the adds before another wave spawns = fall hopelessly behind). We are lucky that our healers are very capable so cutting a healer is never a big deal but then it's all about managing all available CDs and healing options ... something that not every normal mode guild is going to want to do. That said I can safely assert there's not a single fight you can't eventually out-gear. I mean no amount of gear will let you stand in front of Thok but most of the other mechanics are easy to out-iLvL.

    In the end if you don't out-gear a fight then you need to cut healers, it's just the way it's always been. AT 530 I don't think you qualify as out-gearing too many of the normal modes.
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  9. #9
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    or healers don't really have the gear to 1 heal downstairs it feels like. I would have re-arranged how we were doing the fight, but I'm just an app so what do I know.
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  10. #10
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    Breezed its at 542.
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  11. #11
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    I feel like if we had just a weeeee bit more DPS, it would have gone well.
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  12. #12
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    Stop having your tank tank them out the flame strike. its only about 100k dps on every target in it.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    or healers don't really have the gear to 1 heal downstairs it feels like. I would have re-arranged how we were doing the fight, but I'm just an app so what do I know.
    We two heal downstairs, one heal up stairs. It feels to me, healing downstairs, that if you're going to 1 heal there, your dps needs to clear adds really fast - and people have to not stand in the fucking flaming arrows - drives me nuts.

  14. #14
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    it's almost impossible to not stand in flame arrows. They track you and you will always take 1 tick, maybe 2. There's almost nothing you can do about it. And I think they only do like 3 total ticks.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  15. #15
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    Galakras normal feels like a gear check although as people note, people not standing in the bad thing makes a big difference. I have issue with the last phase when he's smoking your raid group with flame orbs. in both groups I run with (maybe 530 ilvl for one, 545 for the other), we killed it with only a single tank alive. Yeah we run the orbs to the back, people soak it as much as they can, etc, etc. Just seems like the damage ramps up redonkulously quick. 2 healing it in both groups...oh well. A kill is a kill.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    it's almost impossible to not stand in flame arrows. They track you and you will always take 1 tick, maybe 2. There's almost nothing you can do about it. And I think they only do like 3 total ticks.
    Yeah, limiting it to one tick is good. We have a couple people who will stand there and there are times it seems arrows will land in the same place, so while you may only get three ticks, the next arrow hits and you'll get some more.

    Steveh, are people dropping their stacks?

  17. #17
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    So far I find Dark Shamans to be the one that gives the most issues and that's because of the size of the playing field. Between tornados, green crap, purple swirls, ash fence things and meteor crash, it gets real small real fast and los to tanks can suck.

    I can say I was disappointed in Nazgrim, I thought he deserved to be a tougher fight; maybe on heroic it will be.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I can say I was disappointed in Nazgrim, I thought he deserved to be a tougher fight; maybe on heroic it will be.
    Nope, not really. In fact out of the first 8 he's roughly right in middle of the pack and really not that much harder than normal mode. Not that the heroic are trivial or anything but he's definitely not a major step forward compared to normal. Basically outside of the generic More HP, more DPS, he has an extra add that's no worse than the assassins and he has an ability that requires tanks to actually use CDs (or ignore if you are a guardian like me). I haven't killed him yet (garrosh is testing our gear right now) but suffice it to say I am more worried about Norushen.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    We two heal downstairs, one heal up stairs. It feels to me, healing downstairs, that if you're going to 1 heal there, your dps needs to clear adds really fast - and people have to not stand in the fucking flaming arrows - drives me nuts.
    we kill Flameflingers as a priority because of this
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  20. #20
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    Where do you guys tank the adds? we've been tanking them back in the big flamestrike, is it better to move up and just stack where the flameflingers stand?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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