+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: How can I determine the cause for wipes?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8

    How can I determine the cause for wipes?

    This is kind of a general MMO question I have. As a raider leader and main tank, I always wanna know the reason that a wipe occurred.

    There have been encounters were we get the boss to 40%, 35%, then only 60%...and everytime I asked what happened I get the common response "healers didnt heal." Now I would never accept this as an answer and would spend time looking at recount and combat logs between attempts, as well as whispering some members, to see the underlying cause. Sometimes I never reached an understanding of what caused the wipe...but then randomly the next attempt, with nothing changed or no issues solved...we would down the boss. Even though the last attempted only went to 60%

    My question is:

    As a raid leader, how do you determine the root of the problems that cause your raid to wipe?


    I never understand how downing a boss can seem so impossible at the time, but then you keep trying and one of the attempts everything just falls into place.



    I remember one time I died, as main tank, and got the response, "healers didn't heal". Which was true. But the healer didn't heal because a DPS was standing in the "fire" so the healer had queued a spell to keep that DPS alive, which is why I ended up dying. Something like this can be hard to notice if no one in your raid is communicating. So how can you take steps as an individual to find these problems, so they can be fixed.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,870
    doing just what you're doing;looking at death logs (recount and skada at the time, WoL after the raid) and looking at the order of deaths and what people die to, and working out where they where when they died. You need to reconstruct whats happening.

    I can spend hours after a raid looking over WoL seeing if tanks are timing their active mitigations, checking to see if healers are using the right spells or keeping the right stuff up
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8
    Guess I was lookin for an easy way out haha. It does take a lot of time to look through everything but I guess that is the most efficient way to find what you are looking for.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Marina del Rey, CA
    Posts
    2,998
    Well, the easy way out is to have your raid team paying attention...all of them. It shouldn't really ever be a mystery why you wiped. The person who died should know why they died (be it "I didn't have <cooldown> up for <big ability>, I'll probably need an external" or "That was a new thing I got hit by...<look at combat log>...oh, I <was standing in a thing|got hit by a new mechanic|etc>" or "I derped and did <something dumb>" or something more complicated like "Well I didn't get a heal" "Well, that's because I was OOM because <jimmy and johnny> derped it up and stood in fire" "Well <jimmy> couldn't move because he had to <deal with mechanic>, <johnny> just derped").

    Knowing what wiped you shouldn't ever be the hard part...figuring out how to deal with what did can be more difficult ("Well, if we have <jenny> <deal with mechanic> she can do it while moving out of the fire, <johnny> can stop derping it up and then our healer will have mana and our tank can get a heal").

    Certainly logs after the fact can help clean up the problems, but the difference between wasting your time beating your head against the wall being bad and making good, useful, effective attempts is the ability for everyone on your raid team to know why you wiped and what they personally can do to help it not happen.

    Of course, you also need to have an environment where you can say "I did <something dumb>" and not have the whole raid jump down your throat about it...it'll just cause you to waste time not getting good info. Make it unacceptable to not own up to things and make it even MORE unacceptable to berate people for "being bad". People make mistakes...figuring out what you did and fixing it is part of the process. Not to say that the person can't be TOLD they did something dumb, just don't make it into a huge tirade...pretend like you're all adults, basically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,317
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeyv View Post
    My question is:

    As a raid leader, how do you determine the root of the problems that cause your raid to wipe?


    I never understand how downing a boss can seem so impossible at the time, but then you keep trying and one of the attempts everything just falls into place.

    I remember one time I died, as main tank, and got the response, "healers didn't heal". Which was true. But the healer didn't heal because a DPS was standing in the "fire" so the healer had queued a spell to keep that DPS alive, which is why I ended up dying. Something like this can be hard to notice if no one in your raid is communicating. So how can you take steps as an individual to find these problems, so they can be fixed.
    Basically what Ion said, and the part I underlined above... that usually comes down to Jimmy or Jenny or whoever not owning up to making mistakes, then suddenly it clicking and that's why all of the sudden the boss dies: because people are finally doing their jobs correctly. Especially in a 10 man raid environment, 1 person holding back the raid can make things surprisingly difficult. When that 1 person figures stuff out and suddenly the boss dies, the entire fight just "feels" differently.

    It's sort of the same reason why once you kill a boss it takes fewer and fewer attempts to down it, and eventually you just always 1-shot it: it clicks, people get it and you do the "man, why was this boss so hard?".
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    227
    What everyone else has already said. But from my own perspective, here's what I do as a proactive raid lead:

    During the raid:
    - As a raid leader, I keep Skada running with the Death module active. I look at what killed people.
    - Then I look at the Damage Taken by Spell -- for example, on the Horridon fight, there should be very little damage coming from Double Swipe. Any large amounts mean that people are standing in it.
    - For tanks, I look at their buff uptimes if I know what to look for. For Guardian druids, it's a mixture of Savage Defense and Frenzied Regeneration casts. A tank that has neither is doing it Very Wrong. For Prot pallies, it's Sacred Shield and Shield of the Righteous uptimes. Similarly, I look at their Damage Done rotation to see if they have enough Rage and Holy Power generators, respectively.
    - For healers, I'm a little more out of touch, but I can usually tell if one healer is way behind the pack to keep an eye on them and what they're doing (or not doing).
    - I also run DBM. It announces various things, and usually you can tell if some mechanic is what's killing people -- like dying to Eye Sore in Durumu, or being kicked off the platform in the same fight. If one of the tanks has 16 stacks of Triple Puncture during Horridon, I want to know why. If it says, "Focused Lightning on X, and shortly after everyone dies, you can probably bet it blew them up because they didn't get out of the puddle.

    Outside of the raid, I look at the World of Logs to see things that I missed from just looking at Skada. It's got detailed logs of everything people did, and there are tricks and stunts to look at important stuff like Buff Uptimes (sure, that pally had SS up 40% of the time, but it was the first 40% of the fight and it fell off and they never put it back up....) and how much damage people are really doing.

    "Healers didn't heal enough" isn't the whole story. Having played healer, dps, and tank, I can say that if the tank and DPS aren't doing what they need to to reduce their damage, the healers will be OOM by the time the wipe happens. Healers who front load their heals to pad the meters go OOM. Tanks who stam stack and don't bother with their Active Mitigation will have OOM healers in the first few minutes of the fight.

    The Survivability screen in World of Logs is pretty useful to me. It shows how people die, and who tends to be the worst across the board at staying upright. For instance, last weekend's Durumu progression run showed how many people were getting kicked off the board by Force of Will (answer: 4 times for one of the tanks, 3 times for one of the healers, and one time apiece for one of the other healers and one of the melee DPS, out of 11 attempts.) I used to track who used to be killed by Sonic Rings all the time on Grand Vizier, for example.

    I also make heavy use of Raidbots (www.raidbots.com) -- the Compare parses functionality is really useful to see whether people have improved week over week -- you can compare any character on a per fight basis with any other character. I usually do a running comparison between myself and the other five bears I work with, or compare the three pally tanks I know, because it's interesting to me from a number crunching standpoint to see that, if over three fights of equal length, who generates the most Rage or Holy Power or takes the least damage and why.

    Similarly, the Epeen part of the site lets me see how people are doing percentilewise versus their peers and over time, for the DPS at least. I don't expect to have world ranker DPS, but it's nice to know that people are doing at least somewhere close to average DPS, and not, say, below 15% of the world. That means that they have room to improve, be it rotation, gear, or both.

    Why this is important is that many fights in ToT are tuned for a certain amount of DPS -- for example, if the ranged DPS can't kill the Loa Spirit on Council of Elders before it reaches the targeted troll, or they have trouble pushing the Empowered down fast enough, then it's a DPS issue wiping the raid. Or if the heads on Megaera are going down at 4 stacks consistently, you won't have the damage to make the kill.

    No DPS should consistently be below both tanks at the end of the night. One, at most.

    Getting a boss down is a function of repetition until everyone gets the fight. If someone is getting kicked off due to Force of Will on attempts 7, 9, and 10 out of 11, they clearly aren't getting it. :P If that someone happens to be the OT, that's an unrecoverable wipe.

    Stuff like that, the cause of the wipe is obvious, or if Furious Stone Breath kills the raid on Tortos, that means nobody kicked a turtle in time. When people go down, check the healer mana. If they're running on empty, that means people are taking unnecessary damage or they're overhealing.

    The subtle stuff is a matter of looking at WoL until you see patterns form. Uptimes on debuffs, friendly fire, high damage from avoidable spells, that sort of thing. As raid leader, you should cultivate at least some passing knowledge of the other classes in your raid, so that you can tell if they're missing something in their rotation -- we had one resto druid who had a Lifebloom uptime of 4%. A paladin tank not using Seal of Insight. A warrior not throwing down Skull banner. A feral druid with 35% uptime on Savage Roar.

    As raid leader, yours is the thankless task of learning everyone else's class as well as they know it, learning the fights well before you get there (because let's face it, how often do you get to the fight and people go, 'oh, I didn't read ahead, what do I do?'), and being able to read the flow of fights while they're happening. Only you can decide when to call for Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp. Only you can decide who to battlerez, and when to ignore the adds and try and finish off the boss.

    But yeah. Your job as RL is the hardest job. Because while you personally may excel, that doesn't help the 9 or other 24 people in the raid. What makes a great raid lead is someone who can advise and coach and teach, without sounding impatient, frustrated, or condescending. And definitely not angry. :}

    Hope this helps,
    -Tielyn (who uses 'the Patient' title for a reason)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Marina del Rey, CA
    Posts
    2,998
    Quote Originally Posted by Tielyn View Post
    <snip>

    As raid leader, yours is the thankless task of learning everyone else's class as well as they know it, learning the fights well before you get there (because let's face it, how often do you get to the fight and people go, 'oh, I didn't read ahead, what do I do?'), and being able to read the flow of fights while they're happening. Only you can decide when to call for Heroism/Bloodlust/Time Warp. Only you can decide who to battlerez, and when to ignore the adds and try and finish off the boss.

    But yeah. Your job as RL is the hardest job. Because while you personally may excel, that doesn't help the 9 or other 24 people in the raid. What makes a great raid lead is someone who can advise and coach and teach, without sounding impatient, frustrated, or condescending. And definitely not angry. :}
    I don't know that I entirely agree with this stance.

    It certainly helps if everyone (not just the RL) knows what everyone else can do and I obviously think everyone should know the fight and I also think everyone should be able to read the flow of the fight. "Reading the flow of the fight" is really just "paying attention to what's going on"...everyone should be doing that. If you're just focusing SOLELY on DPS or healing or tanking, you're probably doing it wrong.

    Now, I do agree that one person should be the one making the call for 'lust (though I'm of the opinion it should be your DPS leader, not necessarily your raid leader), b-rez (which should probably be your RL, just for sanity's sake) and just burning the boss (which should probably also be the RL's call). The RL should also be the ONLY one pointing out changes that need to be made...it's fine for people to say "I did this and maybe I should do that instead" and it's even fine to say "well, we did this this way, but I think if we do it this other way it'll work out better for everyone", but the one making that call should be the RL. You shouldn't be having random jimmy DPSer saying "BOB THE TANK IS A NEWB HE KEPT SPINNING THE BOSS AROUND AND KILLED US ALL"...that's the RL's job (and honestly, Bob the tank should bloody well know what he did wrong too, if he did do something wrong).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8
    A lot of good info in here, thanks all for the replies

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,008
    From a healers perspective, in game a quick and dirty I use is, looking at damage taken. Granted different fights lead to different damage profiles, but as a rule of thumb, your tanks should be 1 and 2 usually by a good margin; if you see healers and/or dps close on their tails or topping then you can take a pretty good guess people are standing in shit. From there you can pretty much assume the healers are having to focus on those folks, which leads to mana burns, tunneling, ignoring tanks, etc.

    From there you can then drill down and see why the damage magnets are taking damage.

    The distribution usually goes along the lines of tanks, melee, healers, ranged. Healers can tend to take a fair amount of damage since some of us cast and sort of know what our damage limit will be to get the cast off and accept we'll have to heal ourselves up.

    The caveat to all this is if it's a "kill adds fast fight" then it's pretty obvious why everyone's health goes to 0.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,055
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Well, the easy way out is to have your raid team paying attention...all of them. It shouldn't really ever be a mystery why you wiped. The person who died should know why they died (be it "I didn't have <cooldown> up for <big ability>, I'll probably need an external" or "That was a new thing I got hit by...<look at combat log>...oh, I <was standing in a thing|got hit by a new mechanic|etc>" or "I derped and did <something dumb>" or something more complicated like "Well I didn't get a heal" "Well, that's because I was OOM because <jimmy and johnny> derped it up and stood in fire" "Well <jimmy> couldn't move because he had to <deal with mechanic>, <johnny> just derped").
    Are there actually guilds like this? Wow, I must have been slumming more than I thought. In every guild I was ever in, I always had to research and find those answers. That often led to Johnny or Jane wanting to argue that they didn't stand in the fire or they had to because of <x>. I was in one guild where I didn't have that role but the RL still did. I always wanted to try to find a guild like you describe. I thought I could do really well in that environment. Trying to stay with IRL friends never let me app to the guilds I thought might be that good, however.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,870
    if Johnny or Jane stand in the fire and die we respect thier decision, and we refute their logic down to " you thought choosing to die was the best way to help the raid?"
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    choosing to die was the best way to help the raid?"
    I've raided with players where this acutally was the best way to help the raid - one less player who's only contibution to the raid was to help us healers learn mana mangement.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,870
    Oh i've occiasionally cleaved down liability DPS, but its must rare that laibility DPS decide themselves decide their death is good for raid survival.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Oh i've occiasionally cleaved down liability DPS, but its must rare that laibility DPS decide themselves decide their death is good for raid survival.
    No, healer triage tends to take the decision out of their hands - normally, with a "fuck it, I can't keep this asshole up and I'm not trying" but naturally not said in vent.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,317
    I need to start using deathnote again... such a good addon.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts