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Thread: Flex raiding mode discussion

  1. #1
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    Flex raiding mode discussion

    Since there was no thread about it here I thought I might as well start it. Having read the announcement about the new difficulty my thoughts are the following:

    • It should really be a good system for those who want to have some casual pug friendly content, or for casual normal/HC mode raiders raiding 3 or so times a week who want something to do with their friends on off-days
    • I like the LFR-loot system, a lot of pug drama is caused by loot being given wrongly, "I was afk/DC for 30 seconds why did you already award the item", or just by someone who is upset they didn't win a roll
    • It should help some LFR raiders to transition into normal and maybe in the future heroic mode raiding since they have a more organized environment but still forgiving environment to learn how "real" raiding goes.

    I do, however, also have a couple of concerns about this

    • What is the gear dropping from it gonna be like?

    Currently, T15 LFR drops 502 item level, which is close to T14HC BiS items (509). If T16 LFR is also only 7 ilvls behind T15HC and Flex mode ilvl is higher than LFR by let's say 10 (since LFR to normal difference is 20 atm, assuming this won't change), then it is even possible that Flex T16 will drop higher item level loot than heroic T15 (unless you have thunderforged).
    While I don't think this would pose an issue for normal mode raiders, since if you are doing normals I assume you are less interested in absolute min maxing of your character, or even for the more casual heroic mode raiders who kill heroics on a more relaxed schedule, it could very well pose an issue for competitive raiders. With the gated release of that content, it may very well be a really small time investment for a team that smashes normal mode on week one and starts killing heroic bosses the day they are available, but we'll have to see.

    • Will it discourage people from making a transition to normal mode raiding and will normal mode guilds struggle to find people for that content?

    If there is another difficulty mode that lets you see the content, but this time with a more social experience (not the LFR mess that might as well be you and 24 other NPCs), will people just not bother? Some people will for sure abandon normal mode in search of something even easier and more relaxing. But also, many newer players who will start off by doing Flex mode will be driven to normal mode if not for any other reason, because of the loot upgrades alone. Let's not forget that for the majority of WoW players, the biggest concern is "How do I get more powerful items for my character".
    The same concern was voiced for LFR too, but people are still raiding normal and heroic modes just as much as they used to. Remember in TBC, when raiding was "hard" and inaccessible? Remember what most people did back then? They just didn't raid.


    All in all, as long as Flex raiding does not provide additional strain to the hardcore players, I think this is a good system that, while it might not be used very much at all by me, will certainly contribute to the longevity of the game by introducing newer players more smoothly into organized raiding.

  2. #2
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    I agree with all of your positives for sure.

    As far as the gear disparity regarding previous tier H loot vs. current tier F loot, like anything new Blizz tries the rules are not set in stone. This is something that should really be tested live or at least on the PTR before they change the implementation. I agree, it might actually cause some serious butthurt.

    Another thing to consider, is if a casual group gets really good with Flex, they could probably speed through normals and go right to heroics. If someone who has never raided before goes into LFR and has success with some of the worst groups possible, stepping into normal mode with a guild you just joined could prove stressful as all hell. I think Flex would alleviate some of the stress, people aren't going to be terribly concerned about loot whoring since the game decides for who gets what.

    TL;DR it's new, and the details are surely subject to change. IMO the idea is a good thing for WoW.
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  3. #3
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    It will mean that those who want to do the meta-achievements won't have to cancel a week of heroic progress in order to do them.

  4. #4
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    Realistically all heroic gear will be upgraded 2/2 since upgrading is so easy now so if i'd speculate about the ilvls it would be

    T16 LFR: 528
    T16 flex: ~538
    T15 hc upgraded 543
    T16 normal 548

    For high end raiders it shouldn't be that interesting except for maybe tier or legendary drops. While for people doing LFR it might be an easy way to do something a little more difficult and not as faceroll as LFR.

  5. #5
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    My biggest worry is it becoming a near mandatory thing to do until you no longer have upgrades from it. I already hate having to run lfr for a month or so (That's with my ridiculously good luck with gear drops) and now having to run this flex raid every week, i'm looking at basically spending all of my time raiding again. The first 2 months will feel more like i'm back to a hardcore raiding schedule with only 1 or 2 off nights. However, If it doesn't turn into something mandatory then it could be good for the game for both casual players who don't have the time to commit to a scheduled raid or for people like me who have an army of alts. So I can't exactly say i'm welcoming or happy for it's introduction I am interested in giving it a shot to see how it plays out.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbad View Post
    Realistically all heroic gear will be upgraded 2/2 since upgrading is so easy now so if i'd speculate about the ilvls it would be

    T16 LFR: 528
    T16 flex: ~538
    T15 hc upgraded 543
    T16 normal 548

    For high end raiders it shouldn't be that interesting except for maybe tier or legendary drops. While for people doing LFR it might be an easy way to do something a little more difficult and not as faceroll as LFR.
    And also they said that the upgrade system will most likely persist to 5.4 and valor will only be used for upgrades, so let's assume that you'll be able to upgrade them straight up. But still, even if you cannot, 10 ilvls lower for a better trinket proc and/or set bonus will be worth it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by captanmurdoc View Post
    My biggest worry is it becoming a near mandatory thing to do until you no longer have upgrades from it. I already hate having to run lfr for a month or so
    Based on the reasonable ilvl guesses, I think if your clearing normal ToT and, even better if you have upgraded your normal ToT gear, you'll be close enough to Flex mode gear ilvl that it won't make it mandatory. Inother words for the normal or heroic raider the stat increase is not going to make enough of a difference so as to make it compelling.

    As a practicle matter, if you're farming normal ToT, I think you're gear will be fine to let you progress through SoO.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 06-07-2013 at 01:33 PM.

  8. #8
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    Flex raiding mode discussion

    This will also help guilds who are just getting into raiding like mine. Had our guild switch servers so a majority went to a "new" guild who had 3-5 people on at most, and we have been trying to down the first boss in tot for a week now (1 night a week for 3 hours). It would be better than lfr since its mainly mechanics that wreck people, but it will also be a nice loot source to get into normals an heroic modes as well.

  9. #9
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    Disregarding the loot issue and looking at it from a guild management PoV, I think it solves:
    * Casual raiding format easier than normal raiding, but with a social atmosphere which LFR doesn't have.
    * Free to test out guild recruits or gear up alts (getting boosted by mains)

    But it will also cause these issues:
    * Casual guilds not willing to step up to Normal out of fear of having to sit people out deal with loot crap.
    * Yet another Raid format to farm your gear on as a progress raider.
    * An extra that doesn't solve the current nuissance of cherry-picking that is heroic progress boss order.
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  10. #10
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    I thought they learned in T9 that raiding the same f&!@ing content multiple times a week just pisses people off after the 3rd week. I would much rather see "alternatives to raids" or decreasing the difficulty of normal mode raiding. Challenging 5 man's or time consuming heroic scenarios would have been a much better solution than a FOURTH FAHHSHSBSJAFuUENSBZ RAIDING DIFFICULTY. I'm frustrated. Can you tell I'm frustrated?
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  11. #11
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    Here's my Vlog on the new Flex Raid system, if any are interested: http://youtu.be/1X8qDjic0Ys

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    And also they said that the upgrade system will most likely persist to 5.4 and valor will only be used for upgrades, so let's assume that you'll be able to upgrade them straight up. But still, even if you cannot, 10 ilvls lower for a better trinket proc and/or set bonus will be worth it.
    Oh I just assumed vp upgrades would go away and come back 6-8 weeks later. Probably get a lot of normal mode gear to upgrade but with 3k stacked up there should be enough to upgrade flex loot as well making it close to mandatory, probably as good as thunderforged hc upgraded loot.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I thought they learned in T9 that raiding the same f&!@ing content multiple times a week just pisses people off after the 3rd week.
    No one's forcing you to run it. If your guild expects it, that issue is between you and the guild. I don't buy the "I have to" argument. It's your choice. Always.

    I see this as you wanting to limit others' choices so that you don't have to make one.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavfin View Post
    No one's forcing you to run it. If your guild expects it, that issue is between you and the guild. I don't buy the "I have to" argument. It's your choice. Always.

    I see this as you wanting to limit others' choices so that you don't have to make one.
    Having to chose between either a)running content you dislike (LFR) to advance to content you do like (normal/heroic) or b) not making the effort to gear up your character for normal/heroic as fast as is possible is a shit choice regardless of what you pick. Either you don't enjoy yourself, or you're basicly limiting yourself to how 'fast' you can start on the content you want to play. And you HAVE to chose. Always.

    A perfect analogy would be saving up to buy a car/house. You can pick up more shifts at work, or you can not work more but live without a decent car/house for a month longer. Most people who, you know, like to have a house to live in, will feel as if they have to work as much as they can for their goal and if the government here didn't limit people, I bet you'ld have someone every month that literally worked himself/herself to death trying to get money as fast as they can.
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  15. #15
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    I kinda like having the Flex Raid idea -- it ought to work really well for my guild, where we usually have 13-15 raiders on for 10 raid spots, so instead of having to pick and choose who stays and who goes I can just throw everyone into the raid. It also lets me pull stunts like carrying three tanks or four healers when one or more of them isn't ready for prime time, without seriously gimping the DPS by doing so.

    We'll see what the final form is when it comes out, though.

    What I really, really, would like, though, is a LFR-style loot negation for Normal modes -- it means I can tank for more than one group a week instead of feeling bad because I got saved to one group's run, or having to screw over the early group because I need to save my tank for the later group.

    Just my two cents...
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  16. #16
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    Unless it's been changed it looks like, based on GC tweets, lfr ilvl is going to be 520 so if your farming ToT normal, lfr is not, in my opinion compelling content for gear progression.

  17. #17
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    For my guild, the flex raids will be awesome. I have lots of people in my guild that can't make our raid times, and/or it's a good way to gear any reserves/alts we may have. Personally, I would much rather do flex raids over LFR (esp on the weekends x.x).
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  18. #18
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    So what is the current state of Flex?

    I did some Google searches and read some info, but changes are overriding what I originally read I gather.

    I am not currently playing, but just coming back to the community to see if there are any positive changes to bring me back. This looks like something that could sway me, but I want to understand it better.

    So let me see if I have this right.

    1) Its a new ilvl raid type between LFR and Normal that has its own unique lockout. Loot is done LFR style.

    2) You can bring anywhere from 10-25 players and the difficulty scales automatically based on the size.

    3) The lockout is based on the raid leader's progress when continuing.

    4) You have to Que for it, but you pre-make the raid?

    I think I can understand all of this but #4. Why would you have to que for something if you are making the raid yourself? Is it so the loot system kicks in?

    Is there anything else I am missing?

    Thanks
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  19. #19
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    On the discussion side of it I think this could be a great way forward for raiding in the future.

    Just spit balling here but....

    Perhaps we could see this:
    LFR - Same as we have now, but the tier items have nerf'd set bonuses, making them undesirable for higher level raiders.
    Flex - The new normal that accommodates 10-25 (possibly go back to 40 at the max?) players. It scales based on the players you bring in. Loot could be a choice of do it yourself or automated (say the raid leaders choice).

    This would remove the need to run multiple raids every week to max your gearing potential.

    The only snag here is how heroic would work. Perhaps just make it a toggle like in Ulduar on a few fights every tier for prestige items/mounts and leave it at that?

    This would play absolute hell with how guilds are ranked in the progress sites though...
    There is something so appealing about backhanding someone across the face with a shield.

  20. #20
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    Flex is basically what 10 man was in Wrath, it's pug friendly, it doesn't require quite so much co-ordination and it's a a lot more forgiving than normals, the whole queueing for it thing does seem odd, but there's no wait time beyond everyone in the group accepting the queue, I assumed it has something to do with the scaling the bosses to the raid size, but meh it's not really a thing, it could just be to stop peoples getting lost trying to find the instance.

    LFR really isn't that attractive as a normal mode raider, even for set bonuses, LFR loot is 6 ilvls above the normal mode loot from the previous tier, that's 12 ilvls behind Flex and 23ilvls behind normal mode loot, you've gotta have some really attractive 4 set to need to do LFR FLex and normal each week, and further more, most normal mode raiders i know had fully upgraded every piece of gear they use from the last tier, so in order for an LFR piece to be a higher ilvl they need invest at least 250 VP per piece. I don't have the VP to spare at the start of a tier, even though I went in with 3k. I'm not sure anyone has set bonuses that are that attractive. and consider that both Flex and LFR have a 25% drop rate on loot, and you've got the celestial also dropping tier gloves/pants, LFR just doesn't feel like a mandatory thing any more as a normal mode raider, getting on open raid and doing a flex is just so much faster and more convenient. Or, grabbing some peoples and doing the previous tier on HC since it's now nerfed, and easier.

    EDIT: Wow caters to a very diverse audience, I don't see an advantage to trying to lump them all together, the bads, the anti-social, and those that just want stuff on a plate get to do LFR, the casuals get to do flex, the normals get to do normal modes and the heroic raiders get to do heroic, they all get to do content on their terms. I'm a normal mode raider, i don't feel the need to do LFR at all so i don't , and TBH there's not much desire to do flex either due to Ilvl difference, but its nice to be able to grab some folks from guild, realID, the tankspot shoutbox and throw an alt through Flex.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-15-2013 at 11:07 PM.
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