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Thread: "Best" tank class - coming back from a few years off

  1. #1
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    "Best" tank class - coming back from a few years off

    So I am coming back from a few year hiatus, and plan on playing casually with a couple friends. In the past, I was a high end raider playing a prot warrior when I left. Coming back, the game seems to be much more friendly to casual players, which is good for me, as there is no chance I could ever play like I used to.

    Due tot the changes to the titles and mounts, it appears ti be easier than ever to change your main toon. I currently have an 80 or higher for every tanking class with the exception of a monk (which I plan on leveling). I am curious what most people feel like is the most fun tank class to play these days? Are any considered better from a defensive perspective? After playing a handful of 5 mans, so far I am not liking paladin and druid tanking that much, and I have found DK to be pretty fun. Warrior I suppose is in the middle (but damn, too many buttons. Find myself having to click too much stuff). For those with Monks that have a few other classes how do they compare in your eyes?

    I know this is a bit of an open ended and ambiguous question, but I am just looking for whatever feedback I can get.

    Thanks,
    Jamor


    Ps. Advanced apologies on spelling and grammar. Tying this on an iPad.

  2. #2
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    Shaman.

    In all seriosu its entirely personal preference. Fetz will Say paladin, becuase he's a stinking paladin, Tielyn will say bear becuase he's a bear, and i'll say warrior becuase warriors are clearly the best.
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    Paladins are the best tanks out there and I don't care what Tengenstein says!

    But seriously, tank balance is close enough to just choose your favourite play-style and stick with it. Except monks, they're totally overpowered and need nerfing.

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    If you really wanna min max, monks and paladins are by far the best all around tanks out there are at the moment. But since you wanna play casually, whatever tank you enjoy most, just go for it.

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    "Best" tank class - coming back from a few years off

    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    If you really wanna min max, monks and paladins are by far the best all around tanks out there are at the moment. But since you wanna play casually, whatever tank you enjoy most, just go for it.
    This. Paladins are retarded simply because you're a tank and you stack haste (lolwut????). I haven't played a monk or tanked with one, but they seem to be pretty good. Same situation as paladins as they're a tank with dps stats (from the little research I've done, which means inspecting high end monk tanks.) stagger is a nice damage reducer and it is something you need to keep up at all times like a paladins sacred shield.


    That being said, I love warrior tanking. You have enough cool downs, and enough buttons to where its not "devastate spam." I think that all tanks are closely balanced, and its basically a play style choice.

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    Paladins aren't really OP b/c of the haste stacking, they're OP b/c so many of the mechanics in the game right now are long duration boss taunt debuffs....... that paladins can bubble off, turning many 2 tank fights into 1 tank fights and thusly being able to add another DPS, which just makes your whole raid imba.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Paladins aren't really OP b/c of the haste stacking, they're OP b/c so many of the mechanics in the game right now are long duration boss taunt debuffs....... that paladins can bubble off, turning many 2 tank fights into 1 tank fights and thusly being able to add another DPS, which just makes your whole raid imba.
    That isn't something that protection paladins bring to the table. Any holy paladin or retribution paladin can BoP the tank; there isn't some magical force-field that blocks Hand of Protection from working on the other tanks.

  8. #8
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    and Divine shield?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    and Divine shield?
    Don't think any of the removable debuffs can only be cleared by Divine Shield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Paladins aren't really OP b/c of the haste stacking, they're OP b/c so many of the mechanics in the game right now are long duration boss taunt debuffs....... that paladins can bubble off, turning many 2 tank fights into 1 tank fights and thusly being able to add another DPS, which just makes your whole raid imba.

    ... The haste stacking indeed has nothing to do with why paladins are overpowered, druids and monks also use pure DPS stats to tank. Survivability wise, a MASTERY BUILD paladin will continue being the best, but his DPS will be much lower. Also, as Fetzie mentioned, stack resetting is super easy if you have a retri or holy paladin in the raid. I actually have solotanked all the solo tank bosses with my warrior alt, and also our DK tank also solo tanks bosses with me bubbling him as retri. However, using Divine Shield with a taunt macro before taking it off from yourself is safer than relying on an outside source for a bubble, but with some minor coordination it's more than doable.

    The reason protection paladin is so overpowered right now is that he can do EVERYTHING really efficiently. There is practically no situation that a paladin cannot handle really well. Also it may bring the best utility in the raid out of all other tanks. And lastly, admittedly it is pretty fucking easy to play paladin at a "good" level by simply spamming your abilities on CD without thinking much. That being said though, warrior and druid are even simpler to play in my opinion, with DK being by far the most unforgiving and complex.

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    In ToT, Paladins are the best tank. This is largely due to encounter design being cheesed with hand of protection. Yes, other tanks can rely on non-tank paladins to do similar things but it is not as effective when done this way. The other encounter design issue that pushes paladins up is otherwise unblockable/avoidable damage that sacred shield reduces, again an encounter design issue. I could argue in this thread about mastery vs haste with links to Theck's fine work, but that is largely moot. In a non-cheesable encounter the tanks are very similar defensively with paladins being ahead offensively.

    In easier content (heroic 3 and 5 man content) warriors are the best. It doesn't matter much, but second wind creates an unkillable tank and lets you forgo a healer earlier on.

    I am told DK's are better in challenge modes, but haven't witnessed that personally.

    In low vengance scenarios, two tanked 10 man content, druids and monks do more damage.

    As for fun, that is going to go six ways to sunday. I prefer warriors, due to mobility, and because of that I play one. It has never been better to play a warrior mechanically, and I do not miss the carpal tunnel that wrath and BC created. In addition to QoL changes, the proactive absorb feels more tanky than a re-active heal.

    If I didn't play a warrior, I'd probably tank on a paladin which feels more effective with less finger strain. I have tried druid, and find it to be less fun than previous expansions. My healing team seems to prefer healing the druid tank in my guild despite him taking slightly more damage due to the heal vs absorb. I refuse to touch the DK class, they have diseases. If you are interested in monks, I am told by reliable sources that they are harder to play effectively due to shuffle mechanics.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    ... Survivability wise, a MASTERY BUILD paladin will continue being the best, but his DPS will be much lower.
    Just wonna point out here that with Theck's latest modelling Haste comes on top over Mastery (but Stamina still wins for survival in trinket slots and about as far as I can tell, about equal in gemming prio)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    Just wonna point out here that with Theck's latest modelling Haste comes on top over Mastery (but Stamina still wins for survival in trinket slots and about as far as I can tell, about equal in gemming prio)
    I meant to type "even with a mastery specced paladin", implying that it's not even the most optimal way for survivability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Gnome View Post
    In ToT, Paladins are the best tank. This is largely due to encounter design being cheesed with hand of protection. Yes, other tanks can rely on non-tank paladins to do similar things but it is not as effective when done this way. The other encounter design issue that pushes paladins up is otherwise unblockable/avoidable damage that sacred shield reduces, again an encounter design issue. I could argue in this thread about mastery vs haste with links to Theck's fine work, but that is largely moot. In a non-cheesable encounter the tanks are very similar defensively with paladins being ahead offensively.
    Why so? I can assure you both Divine Shield and Hand of Protection, whether you cast it on yourself or not, will reset 100% of your stacks 100% of the time. All you need is to say the words "Bubble me please" on your voice program while you are spamming your cancelaura macro. I've even done that in normal mode pugs with random people in the raid.

    Also, the only fight I might pick a warrior over a paladin is Durumu, because it seems like the warrior using shield block and a shield barrier with around 25-30 rage is enough for his health to almost never drop below 80% making you super easy to top off and remove your debuff.

    There is no "special or unavoidable damage" in this tier, at least not more so than past tiers. Paladins are broken because of how much damage SotR reduces and the ridiculous amounts of uptime you can get with holy avenger, and because of the fact that Sacred Shield absorbs a FUCK TON passively, not discriminating between magic and physical damage.

    The really short version is: Paladins are overpowered because of how their vengeance scales in T15 compared to T14, since all of the bosses deal A LOT more damage. Huge stacks of vengeance = abilities becoming way too strong.


    Last edited by Valaras; 06-06-2013 at 12:57 PM.

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    Double post FML.

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    The problem with paladins is that they scale synergistaclly with too many things. More haste means more SS absorbs, but it also means more self healing and more ShotR uptime, more avoidance doesn't just mean less damage incoming it also means slightly more ShotR uptime as well and prolonged SS absorb uptime, all of which boosts the value of mastery and in turn more mastery boosts the value of the holy power generating stats and decreasing the rate at which sacred shield absobs are consuumed.

    Alot of which is true for warriors as well but haste does nothing, hit expertise and avoidance to all help generate resource and the greater the resource generation the more valauble mastery is, but avoidance and mastery have some negative impacts on each other; mastery makes us crit block which other than decreasing the amount of damage we take also gives us 10 rage (on an ICD) and with the high level of mastery and proper rotation you're unlucky to not get a crit block. Avoiding attacks allows much more frequent use of revenge which gives us 15 rage but once again we're GCD locked and as Rev isn't our top priority we sometimes munch revenge procs (sad times). Both are not bad outcomes, but its impossible to have both, you can't parry an attack you've critically block. which on reflection is somewhat a unique problem for warriors (and to marginal extent pallies) as so much of our rage gen and damage is tied to boss swing speed, Warriors lose the most when the boss decided channelling some ability is more important the meleeing.
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    I think ShoR might require a bit better timing than Shield Block does due to its 3 second duration.

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    No might about. But then ShotR doesn't' have a CD and also works against all physical damage, you might have to time it but you know if its up its there, some physical attacks are ublockable, some aren't. Triple Puncture? can't block that, but Snapping Bite? totally blockable, there's no system behind what we can block or not, so the timing may be easier, but you've got to factor in if it works at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post

    Why so? I can assure you both Divine Shield and Hand of Protection, whether you cast it on yourself or not, will reset 100% of your stacks 100% of the time.
    Divine shield is self cast only. There is no guarantee there will be another paladin in your raid, especially 10 man. There is also unbreakable spirit, which only comes into play with a pally tank, meaning you ideally want 2, which requires comp juggling. You also have no chance of botching the taunt coverage when you do it yourself. I didnít say it wasnít doable, just not as good when done with other tanks. There is also the matter of what you do with that big vengeance stack, which you admit favors paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    There is no "special or unavoidable damage" in this tier,
    Triple puncture immediately comes to mind. If there is something like that every tier, doesnít really matter. The thing is that it is always useful. And yes, I agree that what prot warriors can do on heroic jiíkun is broken too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    The really short version is: Paladins are overpowered because of how their vengeance scales in T15 compared to T14, since all of the bosses deal A LOT more damage. Huge stacks of vengeance = abilities becoming way too strong.
    Call this a theory, but theories are all we have, but I blame haste. Haste overtakes mastery because of sacred shield, and SOI. Otherwise it would be an offense at the cost of defense thing.

    I think the protadin wasnít designed to scale with haste. I suspect they were designed to scale with pure vengeance like DKís and Warriors do. Only, the unintended synergy of vengeance with sacred shield and SoI caused haste to be too good and things went wonky.

    If you were intended to gear haste, you wouldnít need to lie about being ret to have the smart loot give it to you. Unless you are discussing game design, this doesnít matter though. All that matters is the outcome at this point.

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    I think the protadin wasn’t designed to scale with haste. I suspect they were designed to scale with pure vengeance like DK’s and Warriors do. Only, the unintended synergy of vengeance with sacred shield and SoI caused haste to be too good and things went wonky.
    Blizzard gave us a passive that lets our cooldowns scale with haste. If that isn't explicitly saying "you're going to scale with haste" then I don't know what is.

    As for using the retribution loot thingy, I reckon that they'll do away with dodge and parry come the next expansion anyway.

    There is also no chance of "taunt coverage" failing unless you REALLY suck at timing (in which case you have worse problems than whether you can one or two tank a boss) as the immunity check for the boss only occurs when it deals damage to you or applies some kind of buff or debuff. As NPC damage is usually just the melee swing, you can safely BoP somebody and them have over a second to react.

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    warrior has the best mitigation imo, but paladin is better overall (damage, healing and "cheating" the mechanic)

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