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Thread: PST - Episode 128

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    It has been proven even in this game that once a player of obviously significant skill gets their rating/full gear set they tend to actually stop playing until the next season.
    While this IS, clearly, true...it doesn't HAVE to be true. If the game were ACTUALLY FUN in and of itself then you'd play because you were you know...having fun. Like people do.

    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Now the life cycle of the game is different, most gamers start playing games like this young when free time is prevelant and don't care about the time sink but as we age our capacity to sink time into the game diminishes and eventually we get to a point where we feel it's a waste of time ... then comes the rationalization "why can't I just get all the gear up front so I can just raid/pvp at the highest level without any time investment" History has proven fleetingly few people play these games once their gear is "done", so even if you are in the minority who would pay $15/month for 0 character progression does not mean it's good for the game at large.
    I said something related but not the same earlier in the shoutbox.

    I (and people like me who are older) may have less tolerance for nonsensical non-fun time sinks because we view our time differently than younger people who are used to not getting paid (or not paid well, at least) for their time. The act of gearing up isn't fun (especially in MoP) for us...it's a gate we need to unlock to do the thing we ENJOY, which is raid or PvP.

    Now, as I said before, there's a problem currently where the actual raids and pvp aren't really as good as they should be...or can be. The problem is (as people are wont to) we remember the good raid bosses or pvp encounters. So we think "man I want to get in there and kill me some cool new bosses" or "man I LOVE playing RMP" or whatever...but when we get there (finally, after the non-fun gear grind) we're let down. And quit. Because it's not fun. Not because "I'm not progressing my character" as such, but because they're not having fun (even if it's just because the only fun they HAVE is progressing their character).

    For me, getting gear was nice and all...but I wanted to kill bosses. I never liked farm nights. I liked progression nights.

    Assuming the boss wasn't trivial or in someway poorly constructed, anyway. And there usually were a few of those and a few good ones in each tier.

    For me, I'd be OK with a tier with ALL the bosses like h-Rag...ones that take MONTHS to kill, even for good guilds. I'm perfectly ok with killing a boss once and just moving on.

    And if PvP weren't obnoxiously annoying with all the problems that plague it nowadays, I'd be perfectly cool just murdering other players over and over because it'd be FUN.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  2. #42
    Meh. That's all just rationalization to try to back up the bullcrap that has been fed to players all these years by developers that - for the most part - have failed to provide experiences that are actually fun in and of themselves, so the grind becomes the only reason to play.

    It's crap. It's also not "What an RPG is" because that's bullcrap, too. What it is, is simply a development style designed to keep people paying sub fees as long as possible. To steal a word that Extra Credits used, it's pretty much just abusive.

    then comes the rationalization "why can't I just get all the gear up front so I can just raid/pvp at the highest level without any time investment"
    Heh, you try to make it sound so terrible. The only thing I'd say to that is that you can't just "Raid/pvp at the highest level" solely because the time-gating gets removed. That's another piece of bullcrap that's been fed to players, this idea that the gear is the ONLY thing that's important.

    History has proven fleetingly few people play these games once their gear is "done",
    That's true...but it's BECAUSE the game is presented to them as just being about the grind. The entire game (and MMO's in general) end up revolving around gameplay experiences that are simply not fun at best - and frankly just plain work at worst. Of course people just stop playing once the somewhat-addicting rewards are done being handed out. There are plenty of games where people keep playing them after they're "finished", because the game itself provides a fun experience.

    This is really a result of a company wanting to milk the subscription model as much as they can with as little cost as possible, rather than some necessity of the game, as players have been led to believe.

  3. #43
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    Why does the carrot have to be gear? I totally get it for PvE. I don't for PvP
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    While this IS, clearly, true...it doesn't HAVE to be true. If the game were ACTUALLY FUN in and of itself then you'd play because you were you know...having fun. Like people do.



    I said something related but not the same earlier in the shoutbox.

    I (and people like me who are older) may have less tolerance for nonsensical non-fun time sinks because we view our time differently than younger people who are used to not getting paid (or not paid well, at least) for their time. The act of gearing up isn't fun (especially in MoP) for us...it's a gate we need to unlock to do the thing we ENJOY, which is raid or PvP.

    Now, as I said before, there's a problem currently where the actual raids and pvp aren't really as good as they should be...or can be. The problem is (as people are wont to) we remember the good raid bosses or pvp encounters. So we think "man I want to get in there and kill me some cool new bosses" or "man I LOVE playing RMP" or whatever...but when we get there (finally, after the non-fun gear grind) we're let down. And quit. Because it's not fun. Not because "I'm not progressing my character" as such, but because they're not having fun (even if it's just because the only fun they HAVE is progressing their character).

    For me, getting gear was nice and all...but I wanted to kill bosses. I never liked farm nights. I liked progression nights.

    Assuming the boss wasn't trivial or in someway poorly constructed, anyway. And there usually were a few of those and a few good ones in each tier.

    For me, I'd be OK with a tier with ALL the bosses like h-Rag...ones that take MONTHS to kill, even for good guilds. I'm perfectly ok with killing a boss once and just moving on.

    And if PvP weren't obnoxiously annoying with all the problems that plague it nowadays, I'd be perfectly cool just murdering other players over and over because it'd be FUN.
    We need an "I liked this post" button. Because I'd totally click it.

  5. #45
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    I don't think the true problem is gear progression, by itself (in PvE). I think the biggest issue is what you have to put yourself through for gear progression. If gathering up gear to get raid ready was fun, then it would be OK. The issue is, it's not fun. You are doing some sort of repetitive task over and over and over, usually for weeks at a time, to get your gear.

    Sure it's not particularly hard, or challenging (although if it were it might be more fun). But it's just boring. Doing the same heroics, doing dailies, grinding crafting mats, it just gets boring really fast. It doesn't take any particular skill or special ability. It just takes TIME and nothing more. You see it stated very commonly, even on these forums, "what's the problem with getting raid ready, it only takes two weeks!" If that was two weeks of interesting and challenging encounters/events/quests/whatever, then I'd be all for it. But it isn't. It's two weeks of the same thing you've done on every other character you've ever had in every other expansion you've ever played.

  6. #46
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    Okay, back to a place where I can sit down and type out a longer post. Anyways... @feralminded:

    I GET it, I really do, about the gear progression thing... for PvE that is, I totally get it. And I totally get the grind aspect of MMOs, got it, set... my point isn't that we should just GET the carrot instead of chasing it without a grind, my point is the grind is backwards. You do other shit (unrated BGs, Dailies, etc.) in order to do what you actually want to do: PvP. The grind for rating req'd shoulders or the gladiator title or whatever TOTALLY MAKES SENSE BECAUSE YOU PVP FOR THEM. But why does the rating required gear have to make you better at rated PvP?

    I'm not saying get rid of carrots, I'm saying change the carrots. Look I'm just gonna talk about Call of Duty here for a second. I know it's an FPS and this is an MMO, but they both are played by millions of people and have RPG facets to them. You do grind levels and get better gear in both games (though it's not as game breaking in CoD, it's more playstyle oriented than 'you have to have this gun to even have a chance at winning). Yet... in CoD there's this thing called prestige levels... where all you get is a special symbol and you LOSE EVERYTHING YOU GRINDED. The gear is not the end game, you could even do the entire prestige level using a knife! It's the prestige that's the goal. Why is WoW the ONLY DAMNED GAME THAT STILL HAS GEAR = WINS AS A CENTRAL PVP MECHANIC?!?! Oh and guess what, WoW PvP has very low participation. *SHOCKING* I wonder why.

    For PvE I definitely get the gear grind, as the bosses get harder and you nail your rotation, the only way to get better against better bosses is for more gear, and I like that it's important to go back and kill bosses you've already killed for tools to kill new bosses. As long as the grind doesn't get abusive it's fine. If there are other paths to help speed up the grind (dailies for tokens, 5 mans, heroic scenarios, etc.) then I'm way OK with that too, and I think T15s gear grind and alt gear grinds are just about right.

    But for PvP... the imbalance of gear hurts PvP style, and prevents people from entering PvP 'cuz they go "hey, let's do a bunch of PvP and do a PvP grind to get better!" *enters arena* *gets fucking wrecked* "well shit, this isn't fun at all".

    The PvP grind SHOULD BE THE ACT OF DOING RATED PVP, getting crushed by people outgearing you shouldn't be part of it. It doesn't make sense. Now, like I said there could also be different trinkets that change playstyle or awesome minor glyphs, or even different PvP related major glyphs that change gameplay (as long as they're not imba) I think would be awesome. Even making a prestige-like system where you can get mounts and titles n shit for PvPing would be awesome. I know it would get me into PvP again. But as it stands, queuing up for something and just getting out geared is too much of a barrier to want me to do a grind where I basically hope I get lucky and win some conquest points and lose some BGs for meager winnings until I get some good PvP gear to then actually PvP. At least in PvE you can pretty significantly undergear content and still progress through it, it's not a show-stopper.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  7. #47
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    Thank you for years of brilliant shows You've been a real inspiration and I am so pleased for you for landing such an amazing job! Gonna really miss the show, but very pleased for you at the same time!
    Carra

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Why does the carrot have to be gear? I totally get it for PvE. I don't for PvP
    I don't agree with Bovinity that progression is crap, but I think that his arguments answer your question. I think that what happens with with the WoW PvP community is that there are two big groups: the PVPers that happens to play WoW this players thinks exactly like you and the WoW player that happen to play PvP, for this player character progression is key, that is his modus operandi, for this players PvP is just the path of the progression that they like. Obviusly there is crossovers there, this is just a generalization.

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