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Thread: PST - Episode 128

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Ah, good to know, I haven't had time to mess with it in 5.3 yet.

    Wonder if there's a possibility it'll end up not being necessary to get the 600 cloak to finish the chain. It IS 600 after all, seems unlikely that it'll be replaced in 5.4
    The bit I hate about it is the way that some people can be really lucky and be done in two-three weeks, and others in the same raid are 5 weeks into their Runestone quest and haven't got even a third of the things to drop, even with killing every boss each week.

    And it is a pre-requisite to continue the Patch 5.3 bit of the quest chain.

  2. #22
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    Some bosses often pick random player and cast a nuke.
    What if "taunt" forces that nuke to go to the tank helping reduce damage. Obviously cooldown and limits must be put in but imo it would allow tanks to help control and funnel some damage.

  3. #23
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    If you recall Lore, during the legendary quest line when you are in the thunder forge, there is actually a mechanic so that healers and tanks can do the fight. The celestial defender that helps you during the fight has the Astral Endurance buff which means that if a healer keeps him topped off (or a tank keeps him topped off by maintaining aggro), the celestial defender makes up for their lack of DPS. That being said, I do agree with Lore that unless single player content requires complicated healing (e.g., the old benediction quest) or complicated tanking, standing around healing one NPC or gathering adds off one NPC is going to be really dull.

    -HP

  4. #24
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    It seems like some of the current problems with PvP vs. PvE gear could be solved by:

    * Adding more PvP power to the 476 honor gear, bringing it close to 496 PvE gear in damage output. This would make PvE-geared players less overgeared relative to honor-geared players.

    * Making elite PvP gear higher than 496 item level (maybe 510 or 516) but still scaling it down to 496 in battlegrounds and arenas. This would make PvP gear better for getting into raids (but only with a really large time investment, too much for PvE players to feel forced into it) and would also make the best PvP gear at least closer to the best PvE gear for world PvP. On the down side, it might feel like a bait and switch to many players to say "you can buy higher-ilvl gear but it won't actually help you in instanced PvP."

    They could also look into giving the elite PvP gear more sockets, making it better than the non-elite gear but only by a small margin.
    Last edited by Marco; 05-30-2013 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #25
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    Fix to all rated PvP: normalize all gear, both up and down, to the same level. Solves all balance issues and makes it so that PvP isn't "who has more time to get gear" it's "who is actually better at PvP".
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  6. #26
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    Defeats the gear grind.

    Won't happen.

    Them kids love them some grindin'
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  7. #27
    Fix to all rated PvP: normalize all gear, both up and down, to the same level. Solves all balance issues and makes it so that PvP isn't "who has more time to get gear" it's "who is actually better at PvP".
    But then people who haven't "put enough effort in" might beat people who "put a lot of effort in"!!! Oh nooooooooooooooooooo!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    But then people who haven't "put enough effort in" might beat people who "put a lot of effort in"!!! Oh nooooooooooooooooooo!
    If a player that has put a lot of time into their character gets beaten by a newbie in the same gear, they need to GET BETTER.

  9. #29
    If a player that has put a lot of time into their character gets beaten by a newbie in the same gear, they need to GET BETTER.
    That doesn't even make sense, "effort" is the only thing that should be rewarded, ever!

  10. #30
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    What about the effort that the newbie went to in order to kill the veteran?

  11. #31
    What about the effort that the newbie went to in order to kill the veteran?
    What do you want, some kind of madhouse where player skill determines things?!?!

  12. #32
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    This isn't an ethical question but a business one. There are PvP games where skill determines everything and PvP games with RPG elements where time spent factors in. WoW will probably always be in the second category, because they believe that model holds onto subscribers longer. The gear grind can be longer or shorter (it's much shorter in 5.3 than it was planned to be in 5.2, for instance) but it's very unlikely to go away altogether.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    This isn't an ethical question but a business one. There are PvP games where skill determines everything and PvP games with RPG elements where time spent factors in. WoW will probably always be in the second category, because they believe that model holds onto subscribers longer. The gear grind can be longer or shorter (it's much shorter in 5.3 than it was planned to be in 5.2, for instance) but it's very unlikely to go away altogether.
    Hold on there professor... I said for RATED PvP. You know... where it SHOULD be skill based not "LOLOLOL I HIT A BUTTON AND DIDN'T MORE DAMAGE THAN YOU CAN DEAL WITH BECAUSE I OUTGEARED YOU." which creates a massive, and BAD barrier to PvP. The "RPG" elements are still there too even with that series because of you know... spells and abilities that make up an RPG. I refuse to believe RPG means "WE WILL PURPOSEFULLY WASTE YOUR TIME".

    Also, you already get rewards for being better at rated PvP, titles, mounts, etc. You could even increase those to incentivize participation. Then if you want to play wack-a-mole you can queue for regular BGs and just 1 shot people maliciously if you seriously outgear them from being better at the game in the rated arenas.

    The system is backwards, is really what I'm saying here.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  14. #34
    PvP games with RPG elements where time spent factors in
    I really hate how "RPG" has been bastardized into this abomination that now means, "Time sinks and gear progression".

    Reminds me of an article I read way, way back when in Dragon magazine called, "Role, not roll" that emphasized the actual playing of the game over dice rolls and character sheets. Now it's all backwards, people want that time-sink and stat-whoring to take precedence over actually playing the game, it seems.

    But maybe that's my problem...I'm from "way, way back when".

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    But maybe that's my problem...I'm from "way, way back when".
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  16. #36
    Simple fact: lots of people find it enjoyable to work towards a payoff. The carrot on the stick is a lot more than just a way to "get people to keep paying"... it's actually the fun of the game. If the stick has no carrot, you'll wave it around for a minute or two and then get bored.

    Earning things, building up your character to be stronger... that's the major draw of the MMORPG genre. The gameplay is fun, sure, but with no rewards, the fun dissipates much more quickly.
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  17. #37
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    I'm kinda peeved that in order to get a red dancing steel i need to PVP....urg.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    But then people who haven't "put enough effort in" might beat people who "put a lot of effort in"!!! Oh nooooooooooooooooooo!
    I would say it takes a lot more effort to gear yourself out in normal raid gear than it does to gear yourself out in honor gear. I think world pvp and random bgs should be for everyone, put on your best gear and join in. If you want serious pvp put on your conquest and queue up for arenas and rbgs.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    Simple fact: lots of people find it enjoyable to work towards a payoff. The carrot on the stick is a lot more than just a way to "get people to keep paying"... it's actually the fun of the game. If the stick has no carrot, you'll wave it around for a minute or two and then get bored.

    Earning things, building up your character to be stronger... that's the major draw of the MMORPG genre. The gameplay is fun, sure, but with no rewards, the fun dissipates much more quickly.
    I completely agree, which is why there should definitely still be rewards, gear, have it only be normalized in Rated PVP, etc. I was even talking in shoutbox about making the trinkets matter and the on use tend towards different playstyles for versatility in PvP and you can even make it so that you get RID of PvP stats all together if damage in rated PvP is normalized (and if it's too high in non-rated you can just put a blanket 25% PvP damage reduction down or something).

    That and PvP and PvE are fundamentally different. In PvE you're working with a team to kill a boss that is locked into his/her damage output and hit points. In order to kill it faster you simply do need better gear, and you want that better gear to improve each week and the boss is never ever going to complain that player ilevel is OP. Boss doesn't care, he's there to die.

    But in PvP the concept is about skill, besting the other person in combat through your use of guile and abilities. Being able to one-shot someone is not PvP. PvP should be about strategy, and WoW is the ONLY player vs. player game I can think of where you can literally just outgear the other person to beat them in a completely unfair tilt. To an extent games like CoD that have introduced leveling systems have "better" guns and you can earn new attachments and such that changes playstyle, and some guns are more efficient than others, but it's not months of grinding worth. In fact the grind is so low that people will restart everything they've earned just to get another prestige level. Why not have prestige levels and titles be the carrot for PvP? It works REALLY well in CoD.

    I feel like something that would be really cool would be PvP minor glyphs. A minor glyph effect that's just cool, like growing massive wings whenever you hit battle shout or commanding shout, that signifies major PvP accomplishment.

    Conversely, the way PvP stats and gear grind works out is it goes too far in the other direction. It creates a significant barrier to PvP, ESPECIALLY rated PvP. If people aren't even playing it, what's the point in a gear grind?

    My point is, gear grind to do well in other areas, not rated PvP, have that grind get you different rewards, not gear that allows you to just out gear someone instead of out-skill them. Resilience and PvP power all try to fix this and normalize it while still allowing for a "gear grind". Well guess what, it isn't working. Keep the gear grind in, make the PvP gear look badass, make it an alternative to PvE gear, take the PvP stats off of it, normalize EVERYTHING in rated BGs. Make it skill based, not gear based.

    The more and more I dwell on this, the more and more this is such the answer for WoW PvP... I mean hell, that's EXACTLY what they've done in any eSports version of WoW PvP, everyone has the exact same gear.

    Ooh! Another thing PvP points can go towards: PvP only gems or something, just another way to adjust playstyle instead of only trinkets that do different things. I haven't fully thought it out in my head yet (especially if you take away resil and pvp power) but I'm sure there's a way to make that perfectly viable. I'm thinking better itemized gems that can only go in PvP sockets and you can only buy with honor and they have like damage reduction or more damage or something... maybe similar to the PvP meta gems....

    Idk... I'm not on the design team... but I fully expect you to take this ideas to blizzard entertainment with you lore! lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  20. #40
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    The issue Aggathon is again to Lore's point. People don't just grind in rated play to prove who is better, they also put in the time to improve their gear and get just a little bit better. MMORPGs are not a good vehicle for pure skill players (there are other, significantly better game platforms like RTS or FPS that exist to showcase a more pure-skill based playstyle). It has been proven even in this game that once a player of obviously significant skill gets their rating/full gear set they tend to actually stop playing until the next season. Without the carrot, the game loses a lot of appeal to players. I've gone over this one time and time again but the fact is the time sink IS the point of these games, constant incremental progression is why people enjoy these games.

    Now the life cycle of the game is different, most gamers start playing games like this young when free time is prevelant and don't care about the time sink but as we age our capacity to sink time into the game diminishes and eventually we get to a point where we feel it's a waste of time ... then comes the rationalization "why can't I just get all the gear up front so I can just raid/pvp at the highest level without any time investment" History has proven fleetingly few people play these games once their gear is "done", so even if you are in the minority who would pay $15/month for 0 character progression does not mean it's good for the game at large.
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