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Thread: Need help looking at some logs

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Need help looking at some logs

    Alright, so I'm attempting to get better at reading logs. I had N Horridon drop me on the last phase after the troll died, and I'm attempting to understand what happened.

    Here is the death report from WoL

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o1ldd3uhuz1lt5dj/details/6/

    I
    n particular, I'm looking at the at 20:42:36.006 (2nd from the bottom). I died twice, the 2nd time I didn't gather my rage before grabbing him. I'm interested in the first time I died. I'm pulling up the 'more' link and the enabling power gains, casts, and buffs/debuffs.

    I'm including the logs below: Keep in mind this is immediately after the troll died. I waited for my puncture stacks to drop and then taunt.

    Code:
    [20:42:03.032] Rvalue casts Revenge on Horridon
    [20:42:03.366] RvalueRevengeHorridon226435
    [20:42:03.766] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+0 (O: 22365)
    [20:42:03.766] Rvalue gains Victorious from Rvalue
    [20:42:04.009] Rvalue's Change of Tactics fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:05.319] Rvalue hits Horridon63271
    [20:42:06.999] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+0 (O: 42138)
    [20:42:07.694] Rvalue hits Horridon31158
    [20:42:08.092] Rvalue gains 20 rage from Rvalue's Shield Slam
    [20:42:08.092] Rvalue casts Shield Slam on Horridon
    [20:42:08.212] RvalueShield SlamHorridon114129
    [20:42:08.357] Unknown's River's Song fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:08.874] Rvalue's Victorious fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:09.008] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+0 (O: 42691)
    [20:42:10.050] Rvalue hits Horridon23579
    [20:42:11.025] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+0 (O: 84663)
    [20:42:11.210] Horridon's Triple Puncture fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:11.474] Rvalue casts Taunt on Horridon
    [20:42:11.833] Horridon afflicted by Taunt from Rvalue
    [20:42:12.063] Horridon hits Rvalue212707
    [20:42:12.063] Rvalue gains Shield Barrier from Rvalue (Remaining: 126271)
    [20:42:12.065] Rvalue casts Shield Barrier
    [20:42:12.245] Rvalue's Shield Barrier fades from Rvalue (Remaining: 0)
    [20:42:12.245] Ammari's Prayer of Mending fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:12.415] Rvalue hits Horridon59347
    [20:42:12.826] Rvalue gains 15 rage from Rvalue's Revenge
    [20:42:12.826] Rvalue casts Revenge on Horridon
    [20:42:13.042] AmmariPrayer of MendingRvalue+42646
    [20:42:13.042] Rvalue gains Echo of Light from Ammari
    [20:42:13.042] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+42049
    [20:42:13.042] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+1741 (O: 43636)
    [20:42:13.042] Rvalue gains River's Song from Unknown
    [20:42:13.042] RvalueRevengeHorridon158072
    [20:42:13.400] Horridon hits Rvalue Dodge
    [20:42:14.046] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+0 (O: 1642)
    [20:42:14.323] Rvalue gains 20 rage from Rvalue's Shield Slam
    [20:42:14.323] Rvalue casts Shield Slam on Horridon
    [20:42:14.664] WickedmiseryHaloRvalue+0 (O: 136067)
    [20:42:14.664] RvalueShield SlamHorridon384209
    [20:42:14.723] Horridon hits Rvalue295309
    [20:42:14.798] Rvalue hits Horridon51548
    [20:42:14.835] Rvalue's Taunt fades from Horridon
    [20:42:15.042] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+0 (O: 1642)
    [20:42:15.857] TelfBeacon of LightRvalue+80292
    [20:42:15.879] Rvalue gains 15 rage from Rvalue's Revenge
    [20:42:15.879] Rvalue casts Revenge on Horridon
    [20:42:16.044] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+1642
    [20:42:16.067] Horridon hits Rvalue Parry
    [20:42:16.176] Rvalue gains Shield Block from Rvalue
    [20:42:16.176] Rvalue casts Shield Block
    [20:42:16.271] RvalueRevengeHorridon184299
    [20:42:16.271] Rvalue gains Hold the Line from Rvalue
    [20:42:16.561] Rvalue hits Horridon56276
    [20:42:17.054] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+1642
    [20:42:17.388] RvalueImpending VictoryRvalue+113849
    [20:42:17.388] Rvalue gains Impending Victory from Rvalue
    [20:42:17.388] Rvalue casts Impending Victory on Horridon
    [20:42:17.388] Horridon hits Rvalue202205 (B: 86659)
    [20:42:17.467] Telf's Beacon of Light fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:17.489] Rvalue's Victorious fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:17.489] RvalueImpending VictoryHorridon111372 (B: 47731)
    [20:42:18.051] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+1642
    [20:42:18.731] Horridon hits Rvalue198327 (B: 84997)
    [20:42:18.902] Rvalue hits Horridon53846 (B: 23077)
    [20:42:18.942] Rvalue gains 15 rage from Rvalue's Revenge
    [20:42:18.942] Rvalue casts Revenge on Horridon
    [20:42:18.944] Rvalue's Hold the Line fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:19.044] AmmariEcho of LightRvalue+1642
    [20:42:19.044] Ammari's Echo of Light fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:19.073] RvalueThe Risen WindRvalue+33493
    [20:42:19.073] RvalueRevengeHorridon321050
    [20:42:19.359] Telf casts Holy Light on Rvalue
    [20:42:19.486] TelfHoly LightRvalue+42858
    [20:42:19.763] Telf casts Sacred Shield on Rvalue
    [20:42:19.880] Rvalue gains Sacred Shield from Telf
    [20:42:20.055] Unknown's River's Song fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.080] Horridon hits Rvalue104510 (B: 156766)
    [20:42:20.268] Horridon casts Triple Puncture on Rvalue
    [20:42:20.273] Rvalue gains Illuminated Healing from Telf (Remaining: 13798)
    [20:42:20.296] Telf's Illuminated Healing fades from Rvalue (Remaining: 0)
    [20:42:20.296] Rvalue gains 10 rage from Rvalue's Enrage
    [20:42:20.296] Rvalue gains Enrage from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Ihavenoskin's Power Word: Fortitude fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Colthedark's Horn of Winter fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Telf's Sacred Shield fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Rvalue's Shield Block fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Telf's Blessing of Might fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Rvalue's Enrage fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Halloween's Arcane Brilliance fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Rvalue's Well Fed fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Rvalue's Impending Victory fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] Rvalue's Temporal Displacement fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:20.303] HorridonTriple PunctureRvalue26256 (O: 152060)
    [20:42:20.681] Rvalue dies
    [20:42:27.904] Colthedark casts Raise Ally on Rvalue
    [20:42:27.904] Colthedark casts Raise Ally on Rvalue
    [20:42:29.668] Rvalue gains Trueshot Aura from Chaese
    [20:42:30.368] Rvalue gains Furious Howl from Tukkarask
    [20:42:31.557] Rvalue gains Prayer of Mending from Ammari
    [20:42:32.213] Rvalue casts Taunt on Horridon
    [20:42:32.359] Horridon afflicted by Taunt from Rvalue
    [20:42:32.384] Tukkarask's Furious Howl fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:32.384] Rvalue gains Arcane Brilliance from Halloween
    [20:42:32.778] Rvalue gains Power Word: Fortitude from Ihavenoskin
    [20:42:32.856] Horridon hits Rvalue Parry
    [20:42:33.062] Rvalue gains 20 rage from Rvalue's Shield Slam
    [20:42:33.062] Rvalue casts Shield Slam on Horridon
    [20:42:33.063] Rvalue hits Horridon Miss
    [20:42:33.156] Rvalue gains Hold the Line from Rvalue
    [20:42:33.183] RvalueShield SlamHorridon293746
    [20:42:33.576] Rvalue gains River's Song from Unknown
    [20:42:33.578] Rvalue gains Time Warp from Halloween
    [20:42:33.578] Rvalue afflicted by Temporal Displacement from Rvalue
    [20:42:34.184] Horridon hits Rvalue272950
    [20:42:34.373] Ammari's Prayer of Mending fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:34.553] Rvalue gains 15 rage from Rvalue's Revenge
    [20:42:34.553] Rvalue casts Revenge on Horridon
    [20:42:34.553] Rvalue's Hold the Line fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:34.788] RvalueRevengeHorridon*359476* (B: 154061)
    [20:42:35.005] Rvalue hits Horridon45742 (B: 19604)
    [20:42:35.178] AmmariPrayer of MendingRvalue+42646
    [20:42:35.178] Rvalue gains Echo of Light from Ammari
    [20:42:35.376] Rvalue's Taunt fades from Horridon
    [20:42:35.548] Horridon hits Rvalue84369 (O: 208061)
    [20:42:35.591] Ihavenoskin's Power Word: Fortitude fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Halloween's Arcane Brilliance fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Ammari's Echo of Light fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Chaese's Trueshot Aura fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Unknown's River's Song fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Halloween's Time Warp fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:35.591] Rvalue's Temporal Displacement fades from Rvalue
    [20:42:36.006] Rvalue dies







    So here's my questions.

    Code:
    [20:42:12.063] Horridon hits Rvalue 212707
    [20:42:12.063] Rvalue gains Shield Barrier from Rvalue (Remaining: 126271)
    [20:42:12.065] Rvalue casts Shield Barrier
    [20:42:12.245] Rvalue's Shield Barrier fades from Rvalue (Remaining: 0)
    It's not clear to me that the barrier got absorbed. Is that the case? Is it possible it got absorbed from something that isn't being shown on this log? Did it get absorbed by the hit? Can someone explain what happened?


    Code:
    [20:42:12.063] Horridon hits Rvalue 212707
    [20:42:13.400] Horridon hits Rvalue Dodge
    [20:42:14.723] Horridon hits Rvalue 295309
    [20:42:16.067] Horridon hits Rvalue Parry
    [20:42:17.388] Horridon hits Rvalue 202205 (B: 86659)
    [20:42:18.731] Horridon hits Rvalue 198327 (B: 84997)
    [20:42:20.080] Horridon hits Rvalue 104510 (B: 156766)
    The first unblocked hits were due to me trying to get the rage necessary to pop block. I hit barrier after first taunting, and I don't recall why, but looking at the logs I consider that a mistake. Outside of that, however, do these hits look reasonable for tanking N Horridon after he enrages from the troll dying?



    ---

    I see two clear mistakes that I made.

    1. Not popping block *before* taunting, and
    2. popping barrier instead of block (honestly not sure what I was thinking, I know better).

    So I have some definite improvement there. But my third question is this: Looking over the logs, does the healing I'm receiving look reasonable?


    And lastly, what can I be doing to improve my survivability here? I'm about to start stacking stam, but I don't feel like it should be necessary at my gear levels (508). Going into it all my CD's were down trying to survive the troll (disarmed him, and then rolled CD's to live), so I didn't have a lot to work with outside of block/barrier.

    You can be harsh, I have a thick skin. I'm just looking to understand what's going on, so I can fix it. Because I basically just dropped straight to the floor and got to watch my DK co-tank play hero.

  2. #2
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    From a quick look of the healing afterwards I would guess that since you put the barrier up at the same time that you got hit the sever decided to apply the barrier first and then the hit took it down, but the client side log just got message that you got hit, put a barrier up and than the barrier faded.

    You're not hit capped and are reforging out of hit. You're missing a shoulder enchant, you're meta gem is wrong, and you're missing a stam enchant on the chest. and your trinket choice wanky, unless you're going for a full mastery build you want stamina trinkets, The old Shadopan one is quite nice especially when paired with Jade warlord figurine from MSV both full upgraded you can have over 3k master 50% of the time.

    Healing does look a little wanky but it looks more like the healers are distracted picking other people up (though there shouldn't be any other damage going around at that stage). Weakened Blows uptime on Horridon looks atrocious. your shield Block uptime looks off too, Why aren't you using it on the adds? and your berserker rage use is awful.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    6
    Hey Tengen, thanks for the reply.


    The shoulders are a recent upgrade, apparently some wires got crossed somewhere as I thought I had adjusted my reforging/enchants already. It would certainly explain why I felt a bit more rage starved this week vs last week. The enchant and the hit cap issue have both been fixed. That's a bit embarassing, actually.


    I do have a chest enchant (greater stats), and I'm unsure why you believe my meta is suboptimal. My guess is you prefer the dodge/block meta. I'm all for changing my meta, but I'd like to hear a cogent argument for doing so (a simple link would be enough). I chose the stam/armor meta mostly for the stam to help soak bleeds and the like. I made the decision fairly early on in the xpac when gear levels weren't as high, and stone guard bleeds was a thing. Although I can see that the 1% is going to be more effective with a higher mastery level. I assume that's the rationale?


    For the trinkets though, I'm going to make an argument for why they aren't that bad.


    I was really iffy on the ji-kun trinket for a long time, letting it sit in my bag. But the itemization on it is a lot higher than what I had before, and I cap expertise regardless, it's just a matter of where. The trinket allowed me to move more stats from reforge/exp gems into mastery gems, and the like, so it greatly increased my stat allocation overall, it just shifted where my expertise/mastery was coming from. The proc on it isn't that great, but the stat increase was fairly substantial. It allowed me to push my mastery close to 50%. I guess if I were to sum it up, I would say that while it doesn't directly have mastery on it, it allowed me to stack mastery in other places, so effectively it was an overall mastery increase for me.


    The steadfast talisman is a mastery trinket with a pretty nice avoidance CD, I think it speaks for itself.




    I'm completely willing to change my gearing strategy, I just want to hear an argument for why first. I'm not one to do something without understanding why.




    Now on to the play issues (this is the meat of what I was hoping for).


    I used to have rage macro'd with my devastate. I recently removed the macro in an attempt to use it more intelligently, but between me raid leading and not having muscle memory for it, it has been going unused. I've recreated the macro, so that should fix that. Being rage capped isn't really an issue anyway unless I'm pooling resources for something, which happens sometimes, but not often.


    There's no excuse for the weakened blows uptime. I have no explanation for it outside of bad play, I'll fix it.


    The SB uptime is something I'm aware of. I RL, and between watching people, calling things out, and picking up all of the adds on the doors, I know my SB doesn't get used enough. I just need to get better at it.






    For the healing, most likely the issue is because they're still cleaning up the curses. Our dispel coverage isn't the greatest in the world, and cleaning up after a door can sometimes be slow for us.


    So that's that, I have some improving to do.


    I'm curious how you were able to come to the conclusions you did using WoL. I would really like to be able to evaluate myself better so I don't have to come to these boards to get a better feel for what's happening. I've been starting to use the expression editor a bit more, but I'm still inexperienced with it.

  4. #4
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    There's a +200stam enchant for chest better than the +stats (which is about 80stamina and 80 parry)

    Neither Meta gem is going to reliably save you for a near death moment, The Block meta gem is over all better total damage reduction if you have fairly high Block chance, and as a prot warrior you should have fairly high block chances. it has very little to do with gear levels and alot to do with using Shield block for fights with high magic damage (pretty much just lei shi) where you hardly ever use Sblock the stam meta is preferable. It becomes particularly effective is you use shield block strategically to counter boss mechanics or have a relatively fast taunt swap fights (<24s on the boss at a time due to how shield block recharges) because unlike the armour meta, its mainly improving your active mitigation

    Secondary stats on trinkets, gems and reforges have the all have same budget, so it doesn't really matter if you get and expertise trinket and gem mastery or vice versa. so the trinketing expertise so you can get more mastery thing doesn't actually work out. Stamina is not a secondary stat and you get 50% more stam than secondary stats on trinkets, but 25% less than with gems, as such you don't get the same equality, take this example; Steadfast Talisman of the Shado-pan assault @522ilvl has 1467 mastery, the equivalent of 5(ish) gems worth of mastery. Lao-Chins liquid courage @497ilvl has 1744 stam that 7(ish) gems worth of stam. If you trinket stamina and gem secondary stats, you end up with more stam and secondary stats than if you gem stamina and trinket secondary stats. That's just how it works out.

    Avoidance trinkets are nice for TDR but that pretty much all they're good for, STotSPA is nice as its a huge amount of dodge every 2 minutes but that's pretty meh you can much counter 1 dodgeable tank smasher, or alternatively just use it on CD, and if you are just using it on CD mastery is much better. the two 489 trinkets ugraded are the few trinkets that have two very nice stats and each one has 25% uptime and are very easy to chain together, they really are ridiculously good trinkets.

    Most of my log analysis comes form either death's overview and seeing the timing or what's cast, and particular actors buffs gained/cast, if you click the #next to the each (de)buff you can see a little buff uptime bar graph under the DPS graph at the top, so i can look at Horridon and see huge gaps where he didn't have weakened blows or see you shield block at the same times you had deep wounds on horridon, but not when you had deep wounds on the adds so likely your tanking what you have Deep wounds on most of the time and can see what it syncs up with.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #5
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    Fair enough, I'll switch the chest enchant.


    For the meta, I seem to recall seeing it modeled out and the overall damage reduction was roughly the same, it was just a matter of the particular damage intake as to which was better. Do you have a link to any modeling that shows the block gem clearly being superior? I get the stam argument, but that meta also has the extra armor which mitigates on every single hit vs the block which has a chance of mitigating extra, but isn't guaranteed.


    I can understand the argument that it gets stronger at higher gear levels because your block increases, making the extra 1% even more valuable. I get the idea of it, I just distrust taking your word on it without some actual math to back it up.




    Secondary stats on trinkets, gems and reforges have the all have same budget, so it doesn't really matter if you get and expertise trinket and gem mastery or vice versa. so the trinketing expertise so you can get more mastery thing doesn't actually work out.



    Assuming equivalent trinkets, that's true. What I was trying to convey is that the proc isn't all that great, but for me it was a straight up stat allocation increase, so I took it. Even though on the face of it, it doesn't *seem* like a mastery increase, for me it was. The thing to keep in mind is that I'm on a tiny server with an almost non-existent raid scene. We downed Horridon N for the first time Sunday night, so 522 gear is hard for me to come by. I would love to have a better proc (I prefer on use), but I went with the stat upgrade instead.


    For the rest of your argument, I'm not building for stam. If you feel I should be, please make the argument for it. I feel like it shouldn't be necessary for the content we're working on. I don't know off hand what my raid hp looks like, but my unbuffed is around 540k.


    Avoidance trinkets are nice for TDR but that pretty much all they're good for, STotSPA is nice as its a huge amount of dodge every 2 minutes but that's pretty meh you can much counter 1 dodgeable tank smasher, or alternatively just use it on CD, and if you are just using it on CD mastery is much better. the two 489 trinkets ugraded are the few trinkets that have two very nice stats and each one has 25% uptime and are very easy to chain together, they really are ridiculously good trinkets.

    Which 489 trinkets are you referring to?


    I use the dodge proc to fill in where necessary, or to take pressure off the healers when I can, I don't use it on CD, and I would argue that anyone who does is using it suboptimally. Bridge the gap in SB, make myself live a lot longer while the healers are dealing with those silly geese who stood in the bad, easing in to a pull, that sort of thing.


    As an aside, I'm interested in the discussion of my gear choices, there's always room for improvement. But with the content I'm running coupled with the gear level I'm at currently, I don't think an on-use dodge trink vs an on-use mastery trink is the reason why I'm hitting the dirt, and that's really what I'm interested in. I feel like it's either an issue with my play, the healing, or a healthy combinatin of both, and it's difficult for me to see what it is due to my inexperience with WoL.




    We went in and worked on elder council this evening, and it was the same thing. I was tanking sul/malakk and kept dying, we put my DK co-tank in, and he was a lot easier to keep alive. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7005&e=7195




    About the log analysis.


    - For the 'next' link, are you referring to the hash links on the buffs cast tab for the following page: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=7005&e=7195. That functionality there is actually pretty sweet, the way you can stack the timelines (just discovered it)


    - Th buffs gained tab on that page has 2 columns for uptime, it isn't clear to me what the difference is. If there's some documentation somewhere that explains all of those small things, I would love to see it.


    - It's difficult for me to get a baseline to see if these values are good or bad, do you have a recommendation for a warrior I should be watching to get a good baseline to evaluate myself from?


    - The death log is obviously filtering out things by other players, is there a good way for me to get a look at the healing done by our healers around that time? I'm trying to get a better idea of what was going on around the time I die, and it looks like the death log is showing procs, but not

  6. #6
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    Nov 2008
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    A few thoughts:
    - For 'why did I die' type questions, I much prefer to use Deathnote (http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/deathnote) in game and discuss it with the group than pick over logs later. I find the interface more useful (showing % health, highlighting defensive CDs, grouping certain items), and I find that talking about it with the group will often result in people saying 'yea, my bad, I messed up' or 'a big heal was just about to land' or 'we were doing everything we could'. Doing it in-game, while it's fresh in your mind is also a benefit. Tank survival is not soley the responsibility of the tank.
    - In that death you flagged, your last big external heal was '[20:28:15.608] Telf Word of Glory Rvalue +*54444*'. There's no direct heal (other than self heals) on you til you die '[20:28:28.775] Horridon hits Rvalue 2613 (O: 70850, A: 31484, B: 44977)'. ~13 seconds without the main tank getting a heal sure means something was going on. I'd speculate a bad charge forcing lots of people to move, but this is the kind of thing that might come up in that discussion.
    - You list your mistakes as taunting without rage and using barrier rather than block. But I don't see you using any major cooldowns (oh shit buttons). I see a hand of sacrifice used on you and I see a health stone, so I know that you and your team could see that things were going wrong - but were there no other buttons you could have pressed? Were they on cooldown already? A good tank will learn to read how the fight is going, read the ebb and flow of their health bar, see when the raid is struggling and make use of all the tools in their toolbox to stay alive.

  7. #7
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    The meta gem choice has very little to do with gear levels and mostly to do with shield block. Even at low gear levels (463) you should be able to keep Sblock up ~66% of the time, and so generally will be blocking about 70% of the incoming melee swings. now the Block meta gem is a straight 1% less damage taken on blocks, the armour meta is a 2% increase in armour , not a 2% increase in damage reduction from armour, and even with the large amount of armour we have a 2% increase in armour is a very small amount of total damage reduction maybe 0.2-0.5% increase, (with the bigger increase being at lower armour levels) and gets even worse once you start factoring in crit blocks( which the meta boosts from 60% to 62% damage reduction). I suggest you download Airowird's prot spreadsheet (stickied in this forum) if you want to verify for yourself that the austere's armour bonus is not preferable if you're dumping rage right. It really is about ability use rather than gear, if you're using most of your rage on shield block the eternal is the better choice and the +2%armour is meh so its a case of stamina or Block value, and as you say you're not building for stam.

    However Stamina isn't bad, it buys the healers more time and as such the general priority for prot warriors is hit+exp caps, then mastery and stam, and then avoidance, because avoidance by its very nature is unreliable and has some unpleasant diminishing returns. The point I'm trying to make is that the 489 trinkets are really really good, http://www.wowhead.com/item=89079 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=86046 are both Stam Mastery trinkets and once upgraded due to having both a good passive stat and good on use/proc are actually quite competitive with most of the their tier 15 522s as most are let down by their on use/proc. They are particularly strong on taunt swaps as being on use you can stagger them across when you have aggro, and for longer swaps like Durumu you can cycle them with demo shout so for 40 seconds out of every minute you have something up ones a VP purchase from the shadowpan and ones a trash drop from MSV so you have to get lucky with the latter but being on a dead sever shouldn't be a problem as since 5.2 you can cross realm MSV.

    The problem with not using on use's on CD is that you devalue the buff, now yes you can argue that if you time it well it increase value, but you have to do that all the time, and the problem with dodge on uses is that its random, so even if you time your trinket use well you don't necessarily get the dodge you need at the time you need, unless it takes you to 100% avoidance and the harsh DRs on dodge rating tend to make that impossible. its good for TDR but not something you can really rely on to counter specific mechanics, so its better off just trying yo maximise uptime whilst tanking.

    The two columns on Uptimes on the Buffs Gained (or Buffs Cast) are time (in seconds) and percentage of the fight time(so if you're dead for large periods of the fight these willbe off somewhat), so looking at the link you provided you had Enrage up for 101.8 seconds, which was was 53.3% of the fight. As for a baseline, Procs like enrage are difficult to they depend on things like boss swing times and your block rate which are gonna vary. things like shield block generally should have no less than your uptime on the boss, but no more than 66.6% (so if you only had the boss 50% of the time you would want 50% uptime on shield block, if you had the boss 100% of the time, you'd want 66% uptime). Things like Sbar you can't really use uptime as a measure of good use, you have to look at the timing of it. Things like zerker rage its about keeping it on CD (or timing it to break CCs). things like Ultimatum or Sword and Board you want to look to see how long it takes you to react to them as generally its best to react to them as quickly as possible so if you see you had a huge bar of uptime for either on the graph or your average reaction to them (uptime in seconds divided by the amount of procs) is greater than 2 seconds you're being slow. if your number of Cleaves+Heroic Strikes isn't equal to your number of Ultimatum procs your spending rage wrong or clipping procs (though be careful as Cleave should hit twice for each Ultimatum proc)

    You can use the log browser to see what a specific actor is doing through the fight. you'd want to remove the default query and then add a query where the person you're looking at is the source and then find the time about where you died to see what they're doing. The healing definetly looks wanky.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Hey Swelt, thanks for the deathnote recommendation, I'll definitely check it out.


    We talk about deaths, I tend to use the healers as a feedback mechanism in general to get a gauge of how well people are doing wrt to avoidable mechanics (along with skada). But that night was really bad, I'm not used to being the tank that's struggling to stay alive. That and I feel like I need to get better reading WoL (to grow as a RL). I really want to find the problem and fix it, I don't like being the tank that drops constantly.




    In that death you flagged, your last big external heal was '[20:28:15.608] Telf Word of Glory Rvalue +*54444*'. There's no direct heal (other than self heals) on you til you die '[20:28:28.775] Horridon hits Rvalue 2613 (O: 70850, A: 31484, B: 44977)'. ~13 seconds without the main tank getting a heal sure means something was going on. I'd speculate a bad charge forcing lots of people to move, but this is the kind of thing that might come up in that discussion.

    I wasn't sure if I was interpreting the logs correctly or not due to my inexperience with WoL. I wasn't seeing a lot of heals happening to me outside of procs, but I didn't know if I was seeing everything, or if it was filtering their healing out. It sounds like I can trust that the direct heals will be in the death log?


    I'll talk to them about it and see, it isn't the first time I've said something about not getting healed. Many times I end up popping my CD's just to survive because I'm not getting healed between triple puncture. To be fair to them though, we're 2 healing it and our dispel coverage is crap for many of the doors, so they end up with their hands full trying to keep everyone alive and clear debuffs as necessary.


    But, to answer your question about the CD's, at that point I had nothing but my good looks and pride to help mitigate damage (and apparently they weren't enough). We only have 1 disarm (mine) and outside of that the troll was skewering me with his battle cry. So whatever CD's I have available when we get to that point, gets used on the troll.


    @Tengen


    Without seeing it actually modeled such that I can check the work, it's difficult for me to simply jump on the bandwagon and switch my meta. Yes, I could be completely wrong, but I trust numbers more, and I'm fairly certain I made the initial decision based upon some modeling I had come across. That, and it's really difficult for me to believe that the block meta is hands down the better meta across all/most gear levels and situations (outside of magic heavy fights). For one, the block gem clearly becomes stronger the higher your mastery is.


    What I'm saying is that I haven't revisited the decision to go with the armor/stam meta, but I'm definitely up for it. I asked for a link because I want to be able to look at the work and see what assumptions they're making, and so forth. I dislike simply following instructions without verification. It isn't personal, it's because I'm an asshole who is enough of a math guy that I feel comfortable seeing the work and making decisions based off of it.


    For your other points, at the time I wasn't able to upgrade the trinkets, but I see that argument. You've convinced me to replace the exp trinket with the lao-chin trinket. I do disagree with you about the on use avoidance trinket though. It isn't about avoiding that 1 specific swing (or rarely, jinrok would be an exception), it's about a localized TDR. I can't control specifically which incoming hit will be avoided, but I can guarantee roughly a % of them will be, which represents a higher TTL over a short amount of time. Malakk's frigid assault is a perfect use of it imo, as is emergencies that involve someone in the raid screwing up and hurting everyone else.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    You should check Airoword's spread sheet (sticked in this forum), or fluff some of it in my rage calc my rage calc.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    You should check Airoword's spread sheet (sticked in this forum), or fluff some of it in my rage calc my rage calc.
    For spreadsheet, see sig
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    At the risk of beating a dead horse, due to lack of heals for a sizeable window. That isn't to say they ignored you, one death I looked at had Telf throwing hand of sac at you, but you need direct heals and that is an error in judgement on the part of the healers, it happens. To point to 3 factors for improvement I would point at:

    1) Your use of barrier is causing your heal requirements to spike. As a healer, this is dangerous because for a while you require no healing and then you instantly require significant healing for various reasons. I would advise using block over barrier except when tripple puncture is about to be cast.

    2) You did not use any major cooldowns. I would have used one at least when risen wind proced.

    3) If you died because healers were moving, then watch the healers and use a cooldown when they have to move to a bad charge.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    The barrier was a mistake, no doubt about it. I didn't have any CDs available at that point, and last night I just made sure there wasn't a charge when I taunted, things went a lot better, we downed him with no one dead.

    Which for us is good

    I should also mention, I spent a bit of time playing around with my UI. One of the things I did was to move some of my abilities to audible bells when they come available (SS/revenge), so I'm not having to watch my CD's visually. This made it a lot easier for me to RL and do what needs to be done.

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