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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Lessons from Pandaria

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Lessons from Pandaria

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  2. #2
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    You asked about things that came in MoP that you did not talk about. How about Brawler's Guild.

  3. #3
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    You are taking this Blizzard job very seriously. More content faster than ever!

  4. #4
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    I feel like I'm the only person out of 8.3 million who didn't mind Cata but wasn't really grabbed by MoP. I don't even mind kung-fu pandas or daily grinds. The last three months mark the first time since starting in 2006 that I have taken a full-on break from the game. I suspect it's because the main things I did in Cata were raid 25s on my main and 10s on an alt (and going back to Wrath, doing 10 and 25 on main and alt). MoP has seen our main raid shrink by 15 for the first time since BC hit (losing some people who had been around since classic in the process), thanks to the sad state of recruitment, and interest in alt/casual 10-man groups has dried up completely. In the past when I've felt a bit of mild burnout or boredom, I could fall back on just logging in to raid, and that would keep me attached and up to date, but not now. I think maybe it's partly just having played so long - waves of content manage to feel formulaic, and yet superficially ever-changing to the point of fatigue.

    I was thinking about submitting this as a PST or Legendary question, either "am I the only one?" or "have we jumped the shark?" (in the proper sense of the phrase, i.e. things are still cool but the high point is behind us), but I didn't think I could contain my rambling, in case you were wondering why I felt compelled to dump that here. I just wanted to put another perspective out there.

  5. #5
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    Epic opening.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  6. #6
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    I see Lore has been pulling his CDs from the 90s out from behind the couch while packing to move.

  7. #7
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    About the stat food

    I tried really really hard to convince all of my raiders to always use 300 food, but at some point gave up . But really, we are a guild around world 50 overall and working on Ra-Den atm, and we almost always use 275 food. No DPS/healing check has ever been an issue.


    Ra-Den

    While Lei Shen is undeniably the hardest boss of the instance, I'm really enjoying our progression on Ra-Den at the moment. The limited attempts ended up making my team perform extremely focused after each pull and we actually came really close to downing him on our first reset.

    It feels like it should: A bonus boss that you can do some concentrated, but not very time consuming progression after you are done with the massive wall that is Lei Shen HC. Difficulty wise, I think it's easier than Animus and Lei Shen HC, maybe even easier than Twin Consorts heroic, but harder than the rest.

    My biggest issue with the boss, is the fact that he is the one giving the server first achievement and not Lei Shen, and to my knowledge also gives the most points on wowprogress, meaning that your ranking only depends on how fast you kill him, and not Lei Shen. I like Lore's idea quite a lot and I agree that it should be just a totally optional boss that you can choose to pull any time during your reset.


    Pug content

    I'm sorry but the notion of "pug friendly content is dead" is not true. On my server, a medium populated one, with maybe 4-5 guilds that have killed at least 1 HC boss so far and the population dropping, you can still easily find ToT pugs, which more often than not will not clear the whole instance, but can reach to 8-9 bosses. I honestly thing that 8-9 normal mode bosses + LFR for the rest is more than enough for someone who wants to pug something once a week and not join a full raiding team.
    Last edited by Valaras; 05-16-2013 at 06:55 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valaras View Post
    I'm sorry but the notion of "pug friendly content is dead" is not true. On my server, a medium populated one, with maybe 4-5 guilds that have killed at least 1 HC boss so far and the population dropping, you can still easily find ToT pugs, which more often than not will not clear the whole instance, but can reach to 8-9 bosses. I honestly thing that 8-9 normal mode bosses + LFR for the rest is more than enough for someone who wants to pug something once a week and not join a full raiding team.
    I don't know, on my server ToT is pretty much a pug killer, but it could be because people were not very far along in MSV, HoF and ToES and are now pugging that content like crazy and catching up gear wise. We only have 5 guilds that are 12/12 and 4 that have at least on H kill in ToT so it become more puggalbe as people gear up. We're probably about a tier behind.

    The pug community durring WoLK and even Cata was much more vibrant; especially durring WoLK. The raids this this x-pac have been challenging and I think that's a good thing.

  9. #9
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    Personally, I feel like Thunderforged gear would have worked better as a secondary item upgrade system. For instance, instead of bosses occasionally dropping thunderforged level gear, bosses would have a chance to drop an item, lets call them "Motes of the Thunder King". The Motes could then be applied to gear to turn them into the thunderforged version. This would solve the problem of thunderforged drops going to waste because no one needs them. Additionally, this system would then allow for tier gear to be thunderforged as well. The only downside to this system would be in the distribution, as it will be a drop that literally everyone in the raid will want.

    I had also thought that instead of being boss drops, they could be occasionally obtained from DE'd items, however, I think this method of gaining them would cause too many other issues with people passing (or being denied) differently itemized gear so it could be DE'd for the chance at a Mote. This would also make it harder to get offspec gear for similar reasons.

  10. #10
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    I think a way to solve all of that and make the motes work would be to have them drop from the gold bags you get when you do an extra roll for gear.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  11. #11
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    I disagree with the start of mop being a lesson learned aside from golden lotus being required for shado pan and celestials. All you needed to do to raid was run dungeons and kill sha every week. Everything else was extra. The system allows for raiders to put in extra effort for a better chance of progression. That seems like a great system to me. It just seems to me that many players want the ceiling very low so that they can continue what they are doing and say they are doing all they can for raiding.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by joshvolt View Post
    It just seems to me that many players want the ceiling very low so that they can continue what they are doing and say they are doing all they can for raiding.
    This is exactly correct.

    And also fine.
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  13. #13
    The system allows for raiders to put in extra effort for a better chance of progression. That seems like a great system to me.
    "Effort"

    I really hate that word in this context.

    You want to put in effort? Pound your face against the tough bosses. "Time spent" as a measure of "effort" is completely obnoxious and indicative of someone lacking real aptitude.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    "Effort"

    I really hate that word in this context.

    You want to put in effort? Pound your face against the tough bosses. "Time spent" as a measure of "effort" is completely obnoxious and indicative of someone lacking real aptitude.
    ^ This, especially when the extra "effort" is grindy, non-challenging, and uninteresting. I didn't mind the Dominance Offensive Dailies but ONLY because they were interesting in and of themselves. You want to give me other things to do? Like that or like the warlock green fire class quests or the legendary chains you can do on your own? Fine with me. But I can't spend near as much time in WoW as I used to. I am a "casual" but not a "bad" and if I don't have time to do my hampsterwheel grind for the week, then I do feel like I'm holding back the rest of my raid because I'm not performing at my optimum. So I lack "time" but clearly not "effort".
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    "Effort"

    I really hate that word in this context.

    You want to put in effort? Pound your face against the tough bosses. "Time spent" as a measure of "effort" is completely obnoxious and indicative of someone lacking real aptitude.
    As much as you might hate it, time spent is a measure of effort. It takes effort to get your lesser coins and mogu coins every week. It takes effort to run lfr every week. It takes effort to cap valor every week. None of those things are required for normal raiding. They are extra things you can do to progress better.

    I am a "casual" but not a "bad" and if I don't have time to do my hampsterwheel grind for the week, then I do feel like I'm holding back the rest of my raid because I'm not performing at my optimum. So I lack "time" but clearly not "effort".
    I'm not sure what you are holding your raid back from. You don't have to perform at optimum for normal modes. I've never understood why people don't think time should be a factor in a mmo.

  16. #16
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    I just wished the upgrade system in 5.3 would allow us to "Thundercoat" gear for Valor, this would combine both the incentive for 25mans Thunderforged currently is and the VP sink that is VP upgrades. Maybe d/e'ing a Thunderforged item would then have a chance to also give you a "Thundertoken" for this upgrade system?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshvolt View Post
    As much as you might hate it, time spent is a measure of effort. It takes effort to get your lesser coins and mogu coins every week. It takes effort to run lfr every week. It takes effort to cap valor every week. None of those things are required for normal raiding. They are extra things you can do to progress better.
    Timesinks are not worthwhile effort.

    Effort is learning the boss, learning your class, learning your role, learning how your teammates work, and learning how all those things interact to kill the boss. (And those are actually much the same in PvP as well, for the record.)

    Time spent is not an interesting metric for effort.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by joshvolt View Post
    I'm not sure what you are holding your raid back from. You don't have to perform at optimum for normal modes. I've never understood why people don't think time should be a factor in a mmo.
    Raids themselves should require time, I should not be required to grind shit outside of raids as well. Admittedly it's far better now than it was in Cata, in Cata during 4.2 I had almost no gear from raids, it was all valor/rep/5 man gear, but I was still one of the better geared raiders... that's kinda messed up. And lowering the elder charms cap to 50/week definitely helps as well. But again, these are "beginning of MoP" lessons.

    And with now crazy statflation is... ya... gear matters for normal modes as well, there's a HUGE difference between a raid averaging 490 ilevel and a raid averaging 505 ilevel.

    Also I resent the idea that just because I raid fewer hours doesn't mean I won't be doing hardmodes. Admittedly my current guild probably won't ever see hard modes but that's because we only end up raiding like 4 hours a week b/c that's all the time we can spare (and frankly some of the raiders just aren't that good), but my last guild in cata only raided 9 hours a week and we were a US top 200 guild, got H-Rag25 down waaay before 4.3. Got H-Ultraxion down before any nerfs at all.

    Casual DOESN'T MEAN BAD OR ONLY NORMAL MODES. Casual just means time limited, and when you have stupid grinds in the game that no one wants to do, it only hurts those guilds, ESPECIALLY with now the rep was structured at the beginning of MoP.

    Again, it's much better now in 5.2, I think it strikes a happy medium honestly, but rep grinding + valor capping + doing quest chains for elder charms + 4+ LFRs each week... ends up being a lot of time that I don't have any more. The beginning of MoP was brutal... AND I DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY ALTS! Lol.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Raids themselves should require time, I should not be required to grind shit outside of raids as well. Admittedly it's far better now than it was in Cata, in Cata during 4.2 I had almost no gear from raids, it was all valor/rep/5 man gear, but I was still one of the better geared raiders... that's kinda messed up. And lowering the elder charms cap to 50/week definitely helps as well. But again, these are "beginning of MoP" lessons.

    And with now crazy statflation is... ya... gear matters for normal modes as well, there's a HUGE difference between a raid averaging 490 ilevel and a raid averaging 505 ilevel.

    Also I resent the idea that just because I raid fewer hours doesn't mean I won't be doing hardmodes. Admittedly my current guild probably won't ever see hard modes but that's because we only end up raiding like 4 hours a week b/c that's all the time we can spare (and frankly some of the raiders just aren't that good), but my last guild in cata only raided 9 hours a week and we were a US top 200 guild, got H-Rag25 down waaay before 4.3. Got H-Ultraxion down before any nerfs at all.

    Casual DOESN'T MEAN BAD OR ONLY NORMAL MODES. Casual just means time limited, and when you have stupid grinds in the game that no one wants to do, it only hurts those guilds, ESPECIALLY with now the rep was structured at the beginning of MoP.

    Again, it's much better now in 5.2, I think it strikes a happy medium honestly, but rep grinding + valor capping + doing quest chains for elder charms + 4+ LFRs each week... ends up being a lot of time that I don't have any more. The beginning of MoP was brutal... AND I DON'T EVEN HAVE ANY ALTS! Lol.
    All I was saying was that you didn't have to put much effort short of showing up to raids for normal mode. If you raid a couple of nights each week and kill the sha of the tier you should be killing the end boss on normal before the next raid tier comes out. Now if you want to do heroic modes, that's different. They aren't for most players and you should expect to have to do more if you want to progress at a faster rate.

  20. #20
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    Dailies and Rep - This is much better than it was at the start of MoP. I don't feel forced into doing dailies anymore, at least not for rep.

    Lesser Charms - however, Lesser Charms do force me to do dailies - even after I've hit exalted. That's...not right. Yes, pet battles, but I have found doing pet battles just for charms (I've enjoyed pet battles while actually leveling pets and building a team but I'm past that now and am just doing them for charms) to be even more annoying than doing dailies for Lesser Charms.

    Valor - I feel the way valor was done in this xpac has been a problem as well. It takes too long to cap every week and the upgrade system means you're going to have to do this for ever and ever.

    Alts - I enjoy playing alts, but I just don't have time or energy for it anymore, thanks to all the stuff I have to do on my main now.

    Small Group Content - Scenarios don't work at all for me - I think because I miss the Holy Trinity and I don't really like clicking extra action buttons. I play WOW to play my class, not click beer barrels, thanks. Challenge modes also work less for me than I thought they would - I'm tired of the same old 5 mans, they don't drop anything (so you don't even get to DE gear), and they don't really have the charm of going into a 5 man in Wrath and just speeding through as quickly as possible purely for the lulz. They take to much effort to form a group, probably because there just aren't many others out there who want (or have time to) do them either. That leaves the original 5 mans from 5.0, which are wearing pretty thin.

    Raiding - I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I haven't enjoyed raiding as much this expansion. Too many bosses, too quickly, perhaps. Or perhaps I'm just burning out on WOW in general. Or that I usually played ranged but I have been playing a WW Monk this expansion. Its too hard to re-roll now, thanks to the legendary quest chain, unfortunately. Once I get certain mechanics, I enjoy them - like dancing on Will or doing lightning balls on H Jin'rokh. Others I just never enjoy - tornadoes on Blade Lord, for instance.

    Class Balance - they missed the boat here, Lore, sorry. The big one has been the ranged mobility issue. Some classes have such egregious mobility (Warlocks, Hunters, Shaman) that other ranged without that mobility feel stuck and being melee feels obsolete. I've had a few raiders in my guild who've honestly said "Well, can't we all just roll Warlocks?" We've also got perennial underperformers, like Shaman, and most non-Warrior, non-Rogue melee, where it honestly feels like a mistake to be even playing those classes and specs. Same goes with Holy Priest (why would you ever play Holy when Atonement is so good, and Chakra is so bad?), Resto Druid, or Resto Shaman, or with Warrior tanks. Tank damage is out of control, and taunt swapping is finicky, thanks to Vengeance. They pretty much dropped the ball completely with 5.2 Monks - we were fine in 5.0 and 5.1 if not tops, and then in 5.2 we were promised real damage - only to find that damage was tied up in gear we didn't get until much later in the tier, and even then we weren't really up to the level we were in 5.0. WOW needs to do better with giving melee a real reason to exist in PVE, and balance healers a bit better.

    Best expansion ever? Not from where I'm sitting. I haven't really enjoyed MoP all that much. I agree with a lot of the changes they made from Cata, at least in theory, but no, I enjoyed Cata more than I've enjoyed MoP, and honestly I enjoyed Wrath much more than either of those expansions. ToT is not Ulduar (although that may be my burnout showing). Arthas was an awesome storyline (although he showed up too often in questing). There were lots of 5 mans to do, and extra time to do stuff *because you wanted to* not because you were being forced to.

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