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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

  1. #61
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    We a small normal raiding guild of friends and family some friendships dating back 30+ years.
    Some of those friends are not the best players, and never will be.
    But our friendships will always be more important than any game.
    So most of the better players don’t mind "carrying" the weaker players.

    LFR 25man.
    Some of our best times are running LFR with 4 - 18 guildies on a Wednesday nights, however the hate speech in raid chat often ruins this.
    I prefer smaller 10 person content, but do like that LFR is the more epic 25 person, and also that we get to play with players from other realms.

    For Normal 10man raids.
    It's not fun playing a social game when you have to tell your wife or your friend that they don’t get to play this week because they the 11th player, or the wrong class/spec, or not good enough.

    I would like to see WOW move away from the "straight jackets" of 10/25 only and get to a point where the content scales allowing you to bring any number between 10 and 40 players (For those wanting 40 player raids back).
    And use the current LFR system of wipe and get an option for a 5% buff, this could mean the iLvl of the loot drops by 2.
    So on normal you would have gear of 522 for a one shot, down to 502 for using the 50% buff.
    If you don’t have the perfect numbers, class/specs or skills, your group can keep trying until you get to the level you can kill that Boss.

    Justice point can be used for gear upgrades to make up for doing badly that week.
    So did well this week, don’t have to have to do Dailies, 5 mans, and Scenarios.
    Did badly this week, put in extra time on Dailies, and small group content to upgrade the ilvls you miss out on.

    Valour points are then still for buying Rep gear to fill gaps in your gear.

    HC can be on separate lockout, and can also be as fine tuned to be as it currently is (10/25), for the truly HC player.
    The HC player then can still play with their more casual friends.

  2. #62
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    You can't just turn a dial to tune content to match the number of players.

  3. #63
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    What about splitting the lockouts but only allowing you to get loot on a boss once per week per difficulty. For example, if you do 3 bosses on 25 man, you are unable to then get loot from doing it in 10 man, but you are able to still run 10 man. By difficulties, I mean normal or heroic. Now, the problem is, then there is no incentive to run the other difficulty if you know you get nothing out of it. How about compensating players with gold for doing a boss on the other raid size, knowing they cannot get loot off the boss. Obviously not too much gold that it becomes mandatory, but it would help people who somehow struggle to make gold outside of raiding, it would allow you to run a 10 man on the weekend, aside from your guild's 25 man. Keep the loot tables and difficulty the same.
    Arms DPS main spec // Prot warrior tank off-spec

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post

    Good guilds SOLVE the problem and kill the boss. Shitter guilds whine on the forums about how bad their raid comp is.
    This hits the nail on the head about what separates good groups from bad groups and what's missing from the raid mentality these days; the problem solving aspect. I think people have become so spoiled with the way loot appears, that they no longer believe they need to take the time to solve the puzzle that a boss presents.

    You see this in the nerd rage at a wipe - oh my GOD we didn't one shot something "you bunch of fails". OMG, we've had to work on this boss for 2,3 or 4 raid lockouts "WTF Blizz". The game has become about zerging things and topping meters, not about the fun of a group of like minded people solving a puzzle.

    No need to mess with lockouts, let the system mature a bit longer. In thier zeal to keep subscriptions, I think Blizz has lost some direction by trying to keep everyone happy and don't quite know what they want the game to be. Cata may have been the mis-step from which the game will never recover.

    Or, it's just a 10 year old game that's losing its appeal and like a ponzi scheme, when new players don't sign up to replace the ones leaving, the numbers leaving become very noticable. Raid lockouts won't solve this.

  5. #65
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    I don't know the solution but I do know I despise LFR and feel it's ruined the game. I personally used to run GDKP runs in Wrath and this was actually a community building affair that everyone loved (the people carrying others were earning gold, those being carried were gearing up for free, etc). LFR has turned all of the player sponsored constructs that actually promoted community into dust and left guilds as insular little anachronisms where you go to get your raid-wide rez and to, you know, actually meet people because you sure as hell aren't going to meet people any other way.

    While I believe LFR has to exist as a catchup mechanic I believe it needs to go away for current tier. This will open up some design space for more casual, organized current content. Leave 10s/25s in tact with separate lockouts but introduce the LFR-level content as organized raiding on a separate lockout requiring an organized group while current. Ultimately we need MORE reasons to group up and meet people in this game and less "queue for something and watch TV until it pops"
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  6. #66
    Cata may have been the mis-step from which the game will never recover.
    Eh, I still think Wrath was the beginning, we just didn't know it yet. Actually, it might even be as far back as the "End of TBC Global Nerfs" sitaution. Once the whole, "I'm not a raider." crowd got into that state of mind where raid bosses and raid loot and whatnot was being served up to them in a form they could chew, the expectations started to change. Posts like #48 in this thread, ("Hey I can't really play like...at all...but I'd like to raid and get raid loot and a legendary and stuff, ok?") started to actually not be a joke anymore, it's become what people seriously expect.

    This hits the nail on the head about what separates good groups from bad groups and what's missing from the raid mentality these days; the problem solving aspect. I think people have become so spoiled with the way loot appears, that they no longer believe they need to take the time to solve the puzzle that a boss presents.
    Yep, this pretty much goes right along with it all, too. Most people raiding today would never spend a whole lockout working on a boss. They'd all /gquit and rage in vent and blah blah blah because bosses are just supposed to fall over at their feet and crap loot out of their asses.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I don't know the solution but I do know I despise LFR and feel it's ruined the game. I personally used to run GDKP runs in Wrath and this was actually a community building affair that everyone loved (the people carrying others were earning gold, those being carried were gearing up for free, etc). LFR has turned all of the player sponsored constructs that actually promoted community into dust and left guilds as insular little anachronisms where you go to get your raid-wide rez and to, you know, actually meet people because you sure as hell aren't going to meet people any other way.

    While I believe LFR has to exist as a catchup mechanic I believe it needs to go away for current tier. This will open up some design space for more casual, organized current content. Leave 10s/25s in tact with separate lockouts but introduce the LFR-level content as organized raiding on a separate lockout requiring an organized group while current. Ultimately we need MORE reasons to group up and meet people in this game and less "queue for something and watch TV until it pops"
    I agree completely. I pretty much quit when LFR came out because it wasn't what I expected. It would have made more sense to be put in a 10 man format, lower the difficulty and it would feel similiar to a Naxx pug or even Karazhan. I mean LFR makes Naxx (WoTLK) look like hard mode. It's literally a loot pinata. I thought the point of LFR was to allow casuals to actually like myself at the time to actually raid. Do keep in mind though that only good servers did GDKP runs. But they were a great way for casuals to gear up.

    Eh, I still think Wrath was the beginning, we just didn't know it yet. Actually, it might even be as far back as the "End of TBC Global Nerfs" sitaution. Once the whole, "I'm not a raider." crowd got into that state of mind where raid bosses and raid loot and whatnot was being served up to them in a form they could chew, the expectations started to change. Posts like #48 in this thread, ("Hey I can't really play like...at all...but I'd like to raid and get raid loot and a legendary and stuff, ok?") started to actually not be a joke anymore, it's become what people seriously expect.
    While TBC was my favorite expansion WoTLK was the best for everyone. The biggest mistake they made was ruining 5 man content by butchering Heroic 5 mans then added LFG which would make it so challenging 5 man content could never be made again really.

    Vanilla and TBC had a serious problem. Many casuals complained that they had a right to see all the content even if they weren't good enough. Back then time commitment was far more serious and while I never made it past SSC/TK and never complained they did have a point. If their paying the same money why not get the same content, should Blizzard really only make content for such a barred few?

    So WoTLK made is so content was accessible for all, and stopped Tiered progession, we can argue about whether that was good or bad but it got everyone raiding which was Blizzards mission. In Cataclysm for some reason Blizzard decided to split the lockouts and I really do not understand why. Not only was this a serious blow to mass raiding but it cut potential content in half. I didn't spend much time during WoTLK on the raiding forums but I really do not remember casuals whining about only being able to get 10 man loot. WoW thrived during WoTLK because they had a good system in place, yet they changed it.
    Last edited by Kahmal; 05-14-2013 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #68
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    The idea that LFG killed hard 5 mans is nonsense.

    What killed hard 5 mans is whiny people who aren't willing to wipe a few times to difficult mechanics.

    The quality of PUG in TBC wasn't vastly better than what you'd get in LFG (really...there were a LOT of bad people) and TBC heroics were quite hard. But people did them because the alternative was doing nothing.

    Even at the beginning of WotLK the heroics were reasonably difficult...but then gear scaled SO FAR out of hand that everything became faceroll (I very definitely Titan's Grip Tanked many a "heroic" by ICC days).

    The power change from the start to the end of the expansions was WAY out of whack...and you notice that when they made the new 5 mans for ICC people whined about how hard they were because they already had the expectation of super trivial 5 mans from the earlier ones. And then that became the expectation. That you queue up and faceroll and boom loot/badges/points/whatever. That there was no effort for your reward.

    And rather than fixing that expectation they've just expanded it...and so it's all faceroll, no-interaction, bland awful uninteresting crap that's based on gear power rather than actual problem solving.

    Which is why I quit. Grinding gear isn't interesting...solving problems is.
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  9. #69
    If their paying the same money why not get the same content, should Blizzard really only make content for such a barred few?
    That's a terrible argument and I was sick of it 15 years ago when people used it in EverQuest.

    You buy a game, you don't buy an assured victory. You didn't whine to the arcade manager when you put a quarter into Sinistar and it whipped your butt. You didn't whine to Nintendo when you bought an NES and a copy of Ninja Gaiden and never beat it. You didn't whine to the tournament organizer when you paid for entry into a M:TG tourney and lost. So why is an MMO any different? Since when does buying the game mean that you're entitled to "win"?

    Isn't it better to have something to strive for and challenge yourself with, instead of pleading for it to just fall into your lap? Besides, as I like to say....when everyone is a winner, all you have is a bunch of losers.

  10. #70
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    I think I agree with Ion about LFD/LFR. Instead of paying "autopug" content faceroll, they still could have made it challenging and forced people to get better if they wanted to win, and you can still queue with your friends if you don't want to risk getting "a bad" but now when heroic 5 man instances are basically soloable... there's no incentive for people to get better.

    Same applies to LFR. Typically it's faceroll, you have 2 healers doing the majority of the healing, usually at least one tank as a general idea of what to do, and 4 dps are doing 80-100k dps while the rest are down at 40kish give or take (that's literally what most of my LFRs look like for some reason).

    But bosses die, why does it matter to get better if the pixel monster died?

    Then comes Lei Shen. The LFR killer. It was hilarious the first week, people wouldn't even try the boss. Now I understand if you run out of time and have to go, that's fine. But people wouldn't even try it because they didn't want to wipe. My first time around it took us about 7 tries to get it down, and for anyone that's done remotely difficult content, 7 wipes ain't bad at all for ACTUAL organized raiding.

    Next time I did it I knew what to do, more people had killed it, but still 15 out of 25 people leave out of twins, most that didn't are my guildies.

    So I take control of raid chat, I tell people exactly what to do. First attempt all of the hunters cast stampede at the same time and the fight glitches out, everyone lags into the dirt and dies within a few seconds of starting. Second attempt (no stacks of determination) we get the boss to 5%, someone stampedes, the remaining healers lag out and we wipe. 3rd attempt, no stampedes, we kill it.

    Shocking, with a modicum of coordination and getting around a known in-game bug, we kill the "pug killer" in only a few attempts... because *gasp* people were willing to wipe and learn the fight.

    I don't understand why this couldn't have been the model all along.

    The only thing I can think of is valor gear, I think that's the REAL reason why people bitched that the original cata 5 mans were too hard, 'cuz they needed to grind their valor and they didn't have time to run 20 instances a week that each took an hour+ to run, which gets me on a whole knew rant about welfare gear. Imo valor shouldn't be earned from heroic 5 mans, the last bosses should have epics that are on par with the raid content you're going towards, 5 mans should be a viable gearing-up strategy and catch up strategy for raiding, but valor should be consultation prizes from raiding. That should be the only way you get valor, except MAYBE dailies if someone really feels like grinding.

    I like the elder charms model, I really do. I think THAT should replace the standard "valor grind" and you should get consolation loot from regular valor you get from raids, and you should be able to get an adequate amount of valor from just raiding. You shouldn't have to grind out 5 mans. Because when you do, now 5 mans become a chore that you want to rush through and you don't want to try because you don't care about the instance itself, just the nerd points it grants to get that other piece of welfare gear.

    There... I fixed WoW, lore are you reading this? =P

    Though to be fair... I think these solutions are too late coming, I don't think you can really go back on the "easier" model now that it's in place. Hindsight's always 20-20 huh?
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    The idea that LFG killed hard 5 mans is nonsense.

    What killed hard 5 mans is whiny people who aren't willing to wipe a few times to difficult mechanics.

    The quality of PUG in TBC wasn't vastly better than what you'd get in LFG (really...there were a LOT of bad people) and TBC heroics were quite hard. But people did them because the alternative was doing nothing.

    Even at the beginning of WotLK the heroics were reasonably difficult...but then gear scaled SO FAR out of hand that everything became faceroll (I very definitely Titan's Grip Tanked many a "heroic" by ICC days).

    The power change from the start to the end of the expansions was WAY out of whack...and you notice that when they made the new 5 mans for ICC people whined about how hard they were because they already had the expectation of super trivial 5 mans from the earlier ones. And then that became the expectation. That you queue up and faceroll and boom loot/badges/points/whatever. That there was no effort for your reward.

    And rather than fixing that expectation they've just expanded it...and so it's all faceroll, no-interaction, bland awful uninteresting crap that's based on gear power rather than actual problem solving.

    Which is why I quit. Grinding gear isn't interesting...solving problems is.
    I disagree somewhat. Wrath ruined Heroics and spoiled the community yes but LFG was the unexpected nail to the coffin. I'm still wondering why they made Heroics so easy in the first place, Blizzard stated they wanted 5 mans to take no more then an hour. What they did was made them AoE fest and made CC pointless and requiring no finesse at all, which is why we have a new generation of lousy raiders because 5 man content was no longer the trial before raiding like it used to be.

    When LFG was first introduced it wasn't a big deal. It was when Blizzard tried making Heroics challenging again with Cataclysm. LFG destroyed the sense of comradery that 5-mans previously used to have. One used to have to worry about their reputation within a server and would like to build bonds, so patience was a virtue when pugging 5 mans, and working through problem to complete your goal. No one had that patience anymore when stuck with a bunch of randoms that they would never see again, they'd either leave and wait to re-queue or try to kick out who they deemed was the problem. Kicking was a last resort before LFG, no one wanted to port back to the capital to look for someone to complete a partially completed instance.

    That's a terrible argument and I was sick of it 15 years ago when people used it in EverQuest.

    You buy a game, you don't buy an assured victory. You didn't whine to the arcade manager when you put a quarter into Sinistar and it whipped your butt. You didn't whine to Nintendo when you bought an NES and a copy of Ninja Gaiden and never beat it. You didn't whine to the tournament organizer when you paid for entry into a M:TG tourney and lost. So why is an MMO any different? Since when does buying the game mean that you're entitled to "win"?

    Isn't it better to have something to strive for and challenge yourself with, instead of pleading for it to just fall into your lap? Besides, as I like to say....when everyone is a winner, all you have is a bunch of losers.
    You bring up a good point but I think WoW is a different case. Once again I personally didn't complain, I felt that BT or Sunwell gear should be earned and a sign of prestige but seriously, how many people really raided BT and Sunwell? To Blizzard it didn't make sense to create content for only the bleeding edge raiders. Also were talking up chalking up $50 per expansion pack as well as $15 a month. I think it's different then just buying Ninja Gaiden and not being able to beat it. (dont those games have cheat codes anyway? Not sure)

    Now what I think your getting at is a long standing argument which Blizzard will never submit to, that Casual doesn't mean Bad! Casual means you either don't have the time or choose not to spend the time commiting to the game because you have other things in your life you would rather do. I was casual during Cata and my favorite part about it was being undergeared yet normally being second in DPS or tanking and keeping up with the lowest damage dealer because they were just bad. Though casual I could still take 10 minutes to learn how to play my class to full effect. As should casual raiders take 10 minutes or so to do the same and learn boss encounters. Cataclysm, they tried to make everyone happy, and it blew up in their face. WoTLK model worked, they should have stuck to it.
    Last edited by Kahmal; 05-14-2013 at 12:53 PM.

  12. #72
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    A lot of people did BT, but only about 1% of raiders ever saw Sunwell.

    I think Naxx25 being a veritable snoozefest (though maybe that's just b/c I could come from sunwell/bt) is more of a reason for lousy raiders. Ulduar did a good amount of work to recover that and strike an even keel, but then they screwed it all up with ToGC. They recovered a little bit in ICC.

    I'll post more in a bit, but there's a bunch of insects having sex out here, and they're trying to mate on my legs... I'm moving indoors...
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  13. #73
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    From a straight economics perspective your argument makes sense "we spend a lot of money to make this content, if we make it more accessible, decrease barriers to entry, then we can sell more subscriptions because more people can raid." I even get the creators wanting to be able to share their cool raid bosses with more people. TOTALLY get it... BUT...

    MMOs are a different beast. People don't keep playing because they got a piece of gear or what not, they have goals that they want to achieve with their FRIENDS. FRIENDS are what keeps people playing. MMOs are supposed to be a social game. To have longevity in a social game you have to maintain those social structures. They have to have goals worth attaining. What happens when they reach that goal? They get bored, and one by one the friends quit. In order to maintain a social game like this two things have to happen: 1) you have to have a cool kids section, people that work hard and get the cool gear and kill the bosses, the paragons and blood legions of the world, 2) it can't be a straight race to the finish, you have to have challenging and interesting content along the way to keep your friend-groups together and there has to be REASON for communities amongst servers. Making heroic 5 mans trivial was the first step towards that. I used to be a part of a thriving community on Maelstrom (and no, it wasn't RP based) before WotLK, and it slowly deteriorated after that. You used to have to work together with guilds, make friends, know who the good tanks and healers and dps on the server were. It was fun! haven't seen that since WotLK started slowly killing it off.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    A lot of people did BT, but only about 1% of raiders ever saw Sunwell.

    I think Naxx25 being a veritable snoozefest (though maybe that's just b/c I could come from sunwell/bt) is more of a reason for lousy raiders. Ulduar did a good amount of work to recover that and strike an even keel, but then they screwed it all up with ToGC. They recovered a little bit in ICC.

    I'll post more in a bit, but there's a bunch of insects having sex out here, and they're trying to mate on my legs... I'm moving indoors...
    Not as much at Blizzard would have liked I'm sure. And yes you are right about Naxx 25 but 5-mans were also the problem. Entry level content is considered entry not just because it's easy, but because it teaches you the basics.

    The entry level content of WoTLK was awful and Ulduar's regular mode punished the poor unprepared saps for it. ToGC was an abomination and I want my money back for it, but either way while I didn't really like running the same raid twice (preferring smaller side content like ZA) the system worked. Normal modes were doable for most guilds until they reached the final boss and Heroics were for the harder core raiders. 10 mans were for casuals who couldn't put together a group of 25. They had a good formula and they butchered it.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    From a straight economics perspective your argument makes sense "we spend a lot of money to make this content, if we make it more accessible, decrease barriers to entry, then we can sell more subscriptions because more people can raid." I even get the creators wanting to be able to share their cool raid bosses with more people. TOTALLY get it... BUT...

    MMOs are a different beast. People don't keep playing because they got a piece of gear or what not, they have goals that they want to achieve with their FRIENDS. FRIENDS are what keeps people playing. MMOs are supposed to be a social game. To have longevity in a social game you have to maintain those social structures. They have to have goals worth attaining. What happens when they reach that goal? They get bored, and one by one the friends quit. In order to maintain a social game like this two things have to happen: 1) you have to have a cool kids section, people that work hard and get the cool gear and kill the bosses, the paragons and blood legions of the world, 2) it can't be a straight race to the finish, you have to have challenging and interesting content along the way to keep your friend-groups together and there has to be REASON for communities amongst servers. Making heroic 5 mans trivial was the first step towards that. I used to be a part of a thriving community on Maelstrom (and no, it wasn't RP based) before WotLK, and it slowly deteriorated after that. You used to have to work together with guilds, make friends, know who the good tanks and healers and dps on the server were. It was fun! haven't seen that since WotLK started slowly killing it off.
    While I liked the more harsher times of TBC, numbers still don't lie, WoW thrived during WoTLK. You are right that it was WoTLK that set things in motion for the terrors that would befall Cataclysm but I still think it was the splitting of the lockouts (and LFR imo) that realy hurt the game. Subscriptions dropped because there wasn't enough content, there wasn't enough content because you couldn't raid the same place twice like you used to be able to. The entry level content wasn't as pug friendly as it should have been opening up either imo.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    While I liked the more harsher times of TBC, numbers still don't lie, WoW thrived during WoTLK. You are right that it was WoTLK that set things in motion for the terrors that would befall Cataclysm but I still think it was the splitting of the lockouts (and LFR imo) that realy hurt the game. Subscriptions dropped because there wasn't enough content, there wasn't enough content because you couldn't raid the same place twice like you used to be able to. The entry level content wasn't as pug friendly as it should have been opening up either imo.
    Common misconception highlighted there. WoW subs DID peak in WotLK... but just at the beginning, when it was the new hotness. Arthas sold copies, not the actual WotLK gameplay, after launch, subs slowly decayed and would spike briefly at major content patches, then would continue to fall. It's been doing that like clockwork since WotLK came out, whereas in Vanilla and TBC it was just skyrocketing up and up and up. I look at trends, not peaks.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
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  17. #77
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    I came at the end of TBC but didn't level cap until WoLK and, personally, I liked the WoLK model the best. I found heroics challanging, I was just learning to play and I recall sweating out every time I'd spam trade "tank lfg heroic (daily, or instance - whatever)" then actually having to perform, cause you got a rep on the server.

    I also felt Ulduar difficulity was about right - Naxx might have been a tad too easy (although in 25 man finding two priests competent to MC the adds on what's his name in the Mil Quarter was a bit of a challenge). But Ulduar on my server you could pretty much guarantee a pug would clear up to the Keepers (if they skipped the furnace guy; furnace guy was a bit iffy).

    But I liked the separate lock outs, it was fun to do a 10 and a 25; I think the shared lock out sucks, but that's just me.

    I'm think Agg is right Valor grinding is why heroics had to become 15 min zerg fests; frankly, putting up with an lfg heroic early in Cata just was not worth the blue reward and who the hell wanted to spend hours to get 80 JP or whatever it was.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 05-14-2013 at 01:23 PM.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Common misconception highlighted there. WoW subs DID peak in WotLK... but just at the beginning, when it was the new hotness. Arthas sold copies, not the actual WotLK gameplay, after launch, subs slowly decayed and would spike briefly at major content patches, then would continue to fall. It's been doing that like clockwork since WotLK came out, whereas in Vanilla and TBC it was just skyrocketing up and up and up. I look at trends, not peaks.
    I see, so I'm assuming the spikes would come from people returning from content patches doing all the could because their was no longer anything to work towards then quitting again, as opposed to TBC where a majority of the time people always had another raid to look forward to. What made more cash though?

    From a business stand point I think the real issue with WoW is it just isn't appealing to new players. I started when I was like 16-17 the game was awesome worth the $50 and $15 monthly fee. I'm 24 now I don't have the time to commit MMOs like I used to, it happens to many gamers who just reach a point in their life where they need to move on. Lets look at 16 year olds today, now aside from the fact that PS4 is coming out and they could be turned off by WoW's graphics, why would they pay a $15 fee in a world with so many free to play games? Hell they all have smartphones and can just download gaming apps.

    Personally I will admit that during WoTLK I started to question whether or not this game was even worth paying for anymore since it started to feel more like a dungeon crawler then an MMO.

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    My point isn't that the WotLK made more money, it probably did, my point is that it was riding the coat tails of TBC and any apparently success it had was the momentum that TBC carried through it. It's my opinion that "WotLK" made more money has been a source of delusional game development ever since that has led to its demise... and frankly has injured other MMOs as well. People go "well that's not how wow does it, what's this crap I have to FIND groups by asking in general chat? what... pffftttt okay going back to WoW".

    Aging player base IS a huge issue, and I won't deny that WoW is going to take some huge attrition for that, but ~5 million subscribers lost since WotLK started (net, that's not canceled subs, that's canceled subs + new subs) has to mean something.

    You don't need to keep players raiding... you need to keep their subscriptions active.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  20. #80
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,025
    If I can use my 14 year old as an example, he started playing when he was 10, but he left durring Cata and just kind of floats in and out of the game. I've asked if I can cancel his sub, but he says "no" and gets a bit taken aback by my wanting to do it - he still feels an affinity for it. WoW just isn't exciting for him, he's into BF3 and this zombie game Dayzee or something, it's like a beta on the PC. I think he represents a good cross section of young players, WoW is boring, it's the same borning thing over and over.

    He loved WoLK, tanking Naxx and ICC (he dps'd on his hunter in Ulduar and ToC). WoW still has a lot of subs, but I've come to the realization it's in its twilight and fading.

    Just look at this board now v. when I first starting visitng here in '09. There were vibrant discussions about tanking and theory crafting and boss fights - it was really nerdy fun. I guess WoW has kind of lost that nerdiness - it really was a nerd game, in a good way. Now it seems people take about BiS gear, but have no freaking clue why it's BiS or why on their play level BiS doesn't mean that much.
    Last edited by Theotherone; 05-14-2013 at 02:07 PM.

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