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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    Challenging, not "oh the tank moved one second too late 8 minutes into a 10 minute fight and now we have to start all over". There's a difference between challenging and unnecessarily frustrating or luck-based.
    So...what you're saying is that 10 mans are too hard for you and you want them removed so that you can get carried by people who are good enough to do 10 mans but now can't because there are no 10 mans to do (under your scheme) so they have to do 25 mans in order to play?

    There's no such thing as "luck-based", btw...if you think it's luck it's because you don't understand it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  2. #42
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    So...what you're saying is that 10 mans are too hard for you and you want them removed so that you can get carried by people who are good enough to do 10 mans but now can't because there are no 10 mans to do (under your scheme) so they have to do 25 mans in order to play?

    There's no such thing as "luck-based", btw...if you think it's luck it's because you don't understand it yet.
    I don't know why this turned into a troll fest. Tell me you've never wiped a heroic fight in 10s because you wasted a battle rez on something dumb? Yeah, okay don't do dumb things but there's a bit more leeway for minor brain farts in 25s (while still being challenging).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    I don't know why this turned into a troll fest. Tell me you've never wiped a heroic fight in 10s because you wasted a battle rez on something dumb? Yeah, okay don't do dumb things but there's a bit more leeway for minor brain farts in 25s (while still being challenging).
    Are you saying you're NOT trolling by saying "get rid of 10 man raiding entirely, let's just go back to the TBC model"?

    Really? You're SERIOUS?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    I don't know why this turned into a troll fest. Tell me you've never wiped a heroic fight in 10s because you wasted a battle rez on something dumb? Yeah, okay don't do dumb things but there's a bit more leeway for minor brain farts in 25s (while still being challenging).
    You wipe while learning fights. That is part of the learning process. Somebody dies, they get CR'd and resurrect into World in Flames...it happens. You learn from it and don't CR until specific abilities are on cooldown or in a safe location.

  5. #45
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    Also: dying to something dumb is not RNG, it's a player being bad, and they need to get better. If you make fights TOO forgiving then they're complete snoozefests, there has to be mechanics that can wipe you if you don't execute them properly. It's just harder to hide the bads in 10 man raids, but 25 man raids die to that shit all the time.

    Did you do H-Rag? in 10 or 25? In 25 man even 1 person screwing up a mechanic could mean a wipe, so really it just made the fight that much harder because you had more people that could screw up, which really negates your whole reasoning for getting rid of 10 mans anyways.

    I agree with Ion, you need 10s and 25s. Do NOT get rid of 10 man raiding.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  6. #46
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    I agree that the game needs a puggeable content, and normals are not that right now, maybe the population changed and those "glorious" days when normals were easy for everybody are gone, the environment isn't appropriate for this kind of behavior. You cannot create a group from 2-3 people and spam in trade to get those people clearing normal. You may want to try tier 14, but for some reason the previous content is not engaging enough for the people that used to pug in previous expansions. DS at the middle of its cycle was pug-friendly; maybe its only good attribute.

    That said, does it need to be raiding? 5.3 brings heroic scenarios and chance of 516 loot for challenge modes. Maybe for those who like to pug, LFR + smaller content is enough (not for everybody, I'm sure, but you need to try to please general segments, not everybody in those segments), maybe they should create more challenging scenarios and more 5 (6 please) man dungeons that requires that you know who are you playing with. So you can get your week with some of LFR and this small group contents.

    Maybe it should be the previous tier, how can be the previous tier interesting? Mounts (like mounts that only are enable after the content have been finished)? Some kind of mat that you need for the actual tier, boe so you can buy it, but someone needs to go and run it? I listen podcast and read people comments that they cannot beat HoF this week yet, granted HoF is trickier than ToES (Blizzard didn't balanced right those two) but still, if you are nerfing the instance but is hard enough to the people that is trying to catchup to do it, maybe they don't want to try anymore because of that, maybe you need to nerf it more, it is old content anyway.

    Maybe it should be the current tier; then we can look at what there is now and use it.
    Lets see the possibilities.
    - Widening the difficulty between normal an heroic, even from boss to boss: We had this problem in DS and FL. FL was blanket nerfed after a couple of months because people was stuck. DS had progressive nerfs because people was stuck, even when they finished normal, they changed to heroic, they didn't stop in normal, but they were stuck in any or another boss and stopped raiding (remember those graphs from guildox).

    - Moving 10normals to easy 10heroic to normals. This personally affects me because I as player can clear heroics, but I don't want to do 25, how do this help me at all? Well maybe I'm a casualty of the process for generating content for more people, I can agree with that, then why we dont make the 25heroics the casualty? They are less people. What advantage there is for killing 10heroic over killing 25heroic?

    Or if we are using GC as a source, he said that normal 25 are almost non-existant, maybe that is something that need to be addressed, maybe we don't need to make nothing at all with heroics, 25 or 10, but with normals, maybe create a 25 easy or move 25 normals to easy, so you have this fantasy of a challenge that needs tons of people, that you can do with friends and so because is really easy to do. Remove the need of clearing normals for heroic raiders and then you have: with the same tiers of gear, only two, just that the logistic "balances" with the difficulty for normals, but it doesn't matter for the competitive player because he cares about heroic which is like it is right now. If someone in 25 normals feels that he can miss his friends and want to jump into heroic, he doesn't have to make a stop in 10 normals to get better gear, he has the normal gear, he can choose 25 that he is used to, or 10 if he thinks what they offer is better for him.

    - Adding a difficulty level easy. If Blizzard does something about this, I think this will be. It has tons of downsides but in the end the problem that the normal content isnt as easy as it used to, exists and you don't take away nothing from everybody else.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theliana View Post
    If Blizzard wants to stop that from happening they need to finally accept the fact that it's not raiding that attracts the vast majority of people to WoW and start spending their resources in a more equitable manner.
    Of course it isn't, it's the healthy community and all the other amazing features, not to mention the exiting leveling process that's the been obliterated.., wait, you were being serious?

  8. #48
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    Ok, let me throw my cat into the fight. I am a family man with 2 yr old twins. I also have a house and a job to attend to. Finally I'm probably not very "good" at WoW. But I enjoy playing none the less. After my kids where born during the first part of Cata I had to quit. There was simply no time to get into ANY content. Even the troll 5-mans could take too much time. When I came back to play in MoP I was, and am, very happy. LFR allows me to raid for about 40 minutes 4 times per week at a difficulty level I can actually do with my skill level. LFR also allows me to progress my Legenday questline without asking, or tricking, a group of people to "carry" me in 10-man normals. I think there are millions of players just like me, possibly we are the largest group in the community, unfortunatly also the most quiet. When ToT LFR came out the que time for me as a dps was about 5 minutes, already it has gone up to around 30 minutes when normal and hc raiders, especially tanks and healers, no longer feel they need the gear. What would happen, do you think, to the LFR community if there was an easy way for organized raiders to gear up quickly without running LFR with the "15 random noobs"? I fear that the que times would skyrocket and effectively "kill" the part of the community who does not have the time and/or the inclination to run "real" raids.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nattravn View Post
    What would happen, do you think, to the LFR community if there was an easy way for organized raiders to gear up quickly without running LFR with the "15 random noobs"? I fear that the que times would skyrocket and
    It's a common misconception that if fewer players run LFR, queue times will automatically go up. Queue times only go up if (a) role imbalance forces certain roles to wait, (b) fewer than 25 people are queueing up every few minutes, or (c) the instance servers can't keep up with the demand. (a) is a common problem and is the cause of pretty much all queueing delays. (b) is very, very far from becoming a problem in a game of this size. (c) has happened for 2v2 arenas in the past but is unlikely to be a problem going forward.

    Organized raiders leaving the LFR system for greener pastures could affect role balance, but it's not obvious which direction it would change it in.

  10. #50
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    The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

    I have to chime in. I have a tank, healer and dps, and both my tank an healing ques typically take 30+ minutes, where as my dps que takes 5-10. I believe it's because you only need 2 tanks and 6 healers, where as DPS requires 17 so there are more positions open. I barely run LFR anymore on my tank/healer simply because how long the que is and the fact that if there's a wipe because of some idiot, it's instantly my fault.


    Excuse my rambling, I've been up far too long.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltranger View Post
    I have to chime in. I have a tank, healer and dps, and both my tank an healing ques typically take 30+ minutes, where as my dps que takes 5-10. I believe it's because you only need 2 tanks and 6 healers, where as DPS requires 17 so there are more positions open. I barely run LFR anymore on my tank/healer simply because how long the que is and the fact that if there's a wipe because of some idiot, it's instantly my fault.


    Excuse my rambling, I've been up far too long.
    Then my experience of the LFR queue (and that of everybody I know) is totally different to yours: 20min+ for a tank, 15-20min as a dps, 1 second as a healer.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 05-12-2013 at 09:22 AM.

  12. #52
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    My experience mirrors Fetzie's for LFR...less than 5 minutes for my healer but an average of 45 minutes for my dps. While some days are better I've also had ones where it was over an hour.

  13. #53
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    I think it depends on your schedule, saturday/sunday very late (2-6 am) is common to wait for 1 or 2 tanks, 3 or less healers, so times are bad for both that first tank and the 3 healers that get there waiting. But in "normal" hours have been like Fetzie said for me.

  14. #54
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    I'd really hate to see 10mans turned back into the second class citizen system we had in WOTLK, I've raided 25mans during WOTLK and earlier, but during Cata I went and raided 10mans with a bunch of friends - it's lead to a much nicer raiding atmosphere and some of my most enjoyable raiding moments since doing that - we're all progression minded, most of us being 30-40 year olds with family / children, so not "super hardcore" but we get our kills, none of us would be happy raiding a lower difficulty.

    I wouldn't mind adding some sort of lower difficulty 10man variant that was off the lockout and enabled the casual runs WOTLK had, maybe rewarding LFR gear (or higher?) in a slightly nerfed normal difficulty raid, but I really wouldn't want the current "10H is on par with 25H" system tampering with, I enjoy being able to raid the hardest difficulty with a raid filled entirely with friendly faces.

  15. #55
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    I also like the idea of a third difficulty level geared towards those with less time/experience but I think you'd have to retain the lock-out to prevent abuse. If it were not in place...and it offered LFR level gear...it would turn into a farm fest for people to gear up for "normal" level.

  16. #56
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    I think it would be nice to have some 25man Normal pugs going on again, I do, to a certain degree, miss leading those as I did back in Wrath.

    Perhaps a system of difficulty such that 25H == 10H > 10N > 25N >>>>> LFR would work, with the separation of Normal and Heroic as you suggested.

    A bit of both worlds, so to speak, from the Wrath and Cata models of raiding I think need to be combined for the best effect, and I do like your suggestion of separating the lockouts by difficulty instead of size.

  17. #57
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    The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Then my experience of the LFR queue (and that of everybody I know) is totally different to yours: 20min+ for a tank, 15-20min as a dps, 1 second as a healer.
    Could be that I'm on a dying server. Who knows. My hours are from 6-9pm pst and 7-12pm pst unless I'm off, which turns into all night.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltranger View Post
    Could be that I'm on a dying server. Who knows. My hours are from 6-9pm pst and 7-12pm pst unless I'm off, which turns into all night.
    LFR pools the entire region together, individual server population numbers don't change the waiting time.

  19. #59
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    Well, 25 man has 3 difficulties, 10 man has 2, seems obvious to me there is one missing, the easier version of 10 man. One that probably would share lockout with LFR and that you would be able to swap to when you hit a wall in normal mode.

    Obviously, not one you want a queue for though, because that would be a mess.

    I really like the idea of lockout by difficulty. I think ICC and TOC were fine, only issue was no cap on emblems so we ran all of those for that, but with the cap to valor point now, I really don't see why there is a need to have more lockouts. We are forced to run on alts now instead of using our mains when we want to raid with friends in a 10 man when in ICC we could do 25 with guilds and 10 later in the week with friends.. on same toon.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Also: dying to something dumb is not RNG, it's a player being bad, and they need to get better. If you make fights TOO forgiving then they're complete snoozefests, there has to be mechanics that can wipe you if you don't execute them properly. It's just harder to hide the bads in 10 man raids, but 25 man raids die to that shit all the time.

    Did you do H-Rag? in 10 or 25? In 25 man even 1 person screwing up a mechanic could mean a wipe, so really it just made the fight that much harder because you had more people that could screw up, which really negates your whole reasoning for getting rid of 10 mans anyways.

    I agree with Ion, you need 10s and 25s. Do NOT get rid of 10 man raiding.
    To be fair, 25 gives you a lot more flexibility in the amount of healers you can bring and the amount of raid cooldowns you have available. Both have their advantages. For doing H Rag in both formats, I'd say the major difference is that it's easier to get 10 good people in one raid instead of 25.

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