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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    I'd add one more wrinkle (or subtract?) to your new lockout system, Lore: remove 10 man heroic.

    10 mans work best when they demand your attention to mechanics and reward you for skillful play (in other words, are normal mode). When you bump the difficulty up to heroic, it really shines a light on class balance issues and buff/utility. You spend more time worrying about why you DON'T have a certain class, than worrying about how to kill bosses. It puts pressure on the whole ranged/melee balance because a swing in composition by only one player makes a big difference in strategy. If you're doing normals, then it doesn't really matter all that much what classes you have, but in heroic mode it makes a big difference.
    Only if your 10 man raid sucks.

    People who say "oh wah we can't kill this boss because we don't have <whatever bullshit excuse>" are not ACTUALLY not able to kill that boss because they don't have <whatever bullshit excuse>, they are not able to kill that boss because they are fuckin bad and have no way to adapt to a problem.

    Good guilds SOLVE the problem and kill the boss. Shitter guilds whine on the forums about how bad their raid comp is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    So you have:

    Heroic lockout - 25 man only - item level X+13
    Normal lockout - 10 or 25 man shared - item level X
    LFR - 25 man only - item level X-20

    Problems this solves:
    [cut bullshit excuses to make raiding all 25 mans again...no I didn't bother to read it, feel free to whine about that too]
    The "problems this solves" are "wah 25 mans are dying". The problems it DOESN'T solve is that hey people who don't want to carry 15 bads through heroic content would now have to because 25 mans would, again, be the only way to raid.

    This topic is, as it ever is, stupid, pointless trollbait.
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  2. #22
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    Why would removing the opportunity to do 10 man heroic raiding help make them not feel like second class citizens?
    There's two distinctions right now in the raiding community - 10 man players and heroic players. Put them together. Now you have Heroic raiders and 10 man raiders. I suppose you'd feel like a second class citizen if you chose to do only 10 man, ever, but only as much as any player that chooses only to do normal mode, ever, right now. The nice thing is that a 10 man raider who decides he wants to be a heroic raider will have the gear to apply to early heroic guilds (which was not the case in ICC, you needed 25 man normal gear at least).

    The "second class citizen" feel came mostly from the higher ilvl of 25 man normal gear.

  3. #23
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    I totally agree with what you're saying, Josh.

    Personally, I'd like to see the difficulty curve use the following guidelines...

    25 man LFR
    10/25 man normal
    10/25 man normal + achievements (For "Thunderforged" quality gear and a Normal mode Raid Mount)
    10/25 man heroic
    10/25 man heroic + achievements (For "Heroic-Thunderforged" quality gear and a Heroic Mode Raid Mount)

    Using this model, normal mode raiding goes back to a stress-friendly level of difficulty (only slightly more difficult than LFR), the "Thunderforged" system finds a good home, normal mode raiders finally get a shot at an achievement mount, and the difficulty curve in total gets flattened out.

    More people would have the ability to raid normal mode, while heroic mode raiders would get the opportunity to earn a heroic mode only achievement mount. The heroic mode version of the mount could then be made unavailable once the next raid/expansion comes out, making it a true reward for heroic raiders only.

    The normal mode version of the achievement mount would remain available, however, to placate the normal mode community.

    I really like this solution. What are your thoughts?
    Last edited by Elliot Walls; 05-11-2013 at 02:00 PM.

  4. #24
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    Only if your 10 man raid sucks.

    People who say "oh wah we can't kill this boss because we don't have <whatever bullshit excuse>" are not ACTUALLY not able to kill that boss because they don't have <whatever bullshit excuse>, they are not able to kill that boss because they are fuckin bad and have no way to adapt to a problem.

    Good guilds SOLVE the problem and kill the boss. Shitter guilds whine on the forums about how bad their raid comp is.
    If you were doing several heroic fights in t14, and didn't have, for example, a Rogue for cleaving, you were at a disadvantage. If you don't have a Mistweaver Monk for heroic Horridon, you are at a disadvantage. In normal modes, it doesn't matter all that much if you're missing a buff. In heroics, it can make or break you. Having a sizeable amount (meaning 2, maybe 3) of Paladins in your raid can be an advantage in heroic modes because you have a lot of Hands of Protection (for stripping debuffs) and Devotion Auras (additional healer cooldowns).

    Then there's the battle rez issue - there's just less room for mistakes in 10 man heroic.

    Can you do all the heroic fights without the "perfect" comp? Yeah. Will you get it done significantly faster with a better comp? Yes. In a 25 man, you are likely to have all the buffs and utility you need for any particular fight that gives a certain class an advantage because you are very likely to have at least one of every class. That's just not the case in 10 man.

    10 mans just work better as normal modes.

    The problems it DOESN'T solve is that hey people who don't want to carry 15 bads through heroic content would now have to because 25 mans would, again, be the only way to raid.
    Don't recruit bads?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    There's two distinctions right now in the raiding community - 10 man players and heroic players. Put them together. Now you have Heroic raiders and 10 man raiders. I suppose you'd feel like a second class citizen if you chose to do only 10 man, ever, but only as much as any player that chooses only to do normal mode, ever, right now. The nice thing is that a 10 man raider who decides he wants to be a heroic raider will have the gear to apply to early heroic guilds (which was not the case in ICC, you needed 25 man normal gear at least).

    The "second class citizen" feel came mostly from the higher ilvl of 25 man normal gear.
    What if, and this might seem like crazy talk to you but bear with me, they want to play with their friends in a 10 man raid AND do heroic content like they can do right now?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post

    Don't recruit bads?
    That isn't always an option.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    The "second class citizen" feel came mostly from the higher ilvl of 25 man normal gear.
    The second class citizen feeling comes climbing up this mountain you started on and eventually reach the top, and from that top seeing another mountain that is much higher, much more inspiring, much more rewarding. A 10 man raider who aspires to "do something more" will, if 10 man becomes normal mode only, be required to join a 25 man guild to progress further. That is a problem when the entire game is built around progressing your character (both when it comes to gear and "bosses killed")

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lubz View Post
    The second class citizen feeling comes climbing up this mountain you started on and eventually reach the top, and from that top seeing another mountain that is much higher, much more inspiring, much more rewarding. A 10 man raider who aspires to "do something more" will, if 10 man becomes normal mode only, be required to join a 25 man guild to progress further. That is a problem when the entire game is built around progressing your character (both when it comes to gear and "bosses killed")
    I have no desire to do 25 mans. If i'm required to join a 25man to play the game, i'm not going to play the game. I'd much rather do 10man heroics than 25 mans. even if the gear and difficulty are identical, i don't enjoy feeling obligated to run 25s.
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  9. #29
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    I think there is something to be said about all of the different raiding models that they have done. I have been playing/raiding since BC, and with that being said been in a number of different progression style guilds. I currently play in a very casual 10man group that has been together since WotLK, and also note moved to be on a more populated server. I personally would love to get back into 25man raiding. Don't get me wrong the 10s are fun but it's just not the same as 25.

    Here is what I think....
    LFR - This personally I think should have been made 10man, not 25. This way the difficulty could have been slightly more on par to normal. 25 random players that don't know whats going on potentially is a headache to just think about. At this point however it's probably better just to leave it alone.

    10/25 - 10s and 25s have there own sets of issues, weather raid comp, how much room you have for movement, buffs... so on and so on. I'm not trying to start the "great debate" - It's just quite simple 10s are not 25s and the other way around. Hell in BC you didn't get the option of 10 or 25. It was here is the 10 man content, Kara and ZA, and here is your 25 man content... The 10s imo where great to do just to take a break from the insanity of the 25s. You didn't have a debate on what was better, or the health of either raid styles. With that being said everyone is all up in arms about how do you encourage 25s and 10s in a healthy way. In WotLK when the raid tiers came out, I remember thinking 4 different sets of gear based on 10/25, normal-heroic.. That is just crazy. I don't think having the 4 different tiers for the same tier is the answer that is for sure.... Level the gear score, for both 10s and 25s, which is how it is now, just split the lockouts. The reason why I say this is because, I used to run 25s every week and would pug for the 10s. Weather or not it was a guild run 10s were pugged. This allowed a few things... It promoted server community (which god knows how many people complain about), and it allowed guild growth. However if you only want to run 10s then fine, but if you get a bug up your butt and want to run some more or have an extra shot at loot pug in for a 25. This also keeps the players that run 10s exclusively from feeling like second rate citizens cause there gear is still in line with everyone else.

    When you look at the health of 10s and 25man raiding teams you need to look at the health of the guild and server. Not all servers are going to be able to promote 25s or even a "hardcore" raiding environment. Which brings me to my next point, there needs to be a better and easier way for players to find guilds and the vice-versa, and I think a lot of those issues will rest to some degree.

    Heroic Modes - I don't think you should be able to cherry pick bosses on heroic. It kinda feels like cheating to me. I don't however think this mode deserves it's own lockout either. If you choose heroic mode and down the first boss, that's it, you are locked into heroic. If you get stone walled.... then better luck next week. Or again split up and do 10s if you are doing 25s. If you are doing 10s pair up with another guild, start recruiting or pug out. There is another option, so you're not screwed.

    So in short -
    LFR should imo be 10m not 25m.
    10 and 25s Should have different lock outs.
    Heroics should share the lock out with respective raid size.
    Heroics should also not be able to be toggled off once any boss has been downed on this difficulty until the reset.
    Gear for 10s and 25s should remain the same ilvl for respective difficulties.
    Lastly there needs to be a better method to find guild/players to promote growth.

    Also I don't care what you do, but a "hardcore" player is going to do EVERYTHING they can to make there toon better... doesn't matter how you slice that pie. So, if you are the person that is crying cause there is just to much to do... then chill out, take a breather and say "I'm just not going to do xyz cause I don't like/want to do it." It's a game.

    Call me crazy, but that's my opinion.
    Last edited by Silvanna; 05-11-2013 at 03:23 PM.

  10. #30
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    Gratz Lore! Never posted before i normaly just listen but have a strong opinion on this. You named off some of the things but here is my format to good raid tiers.

    Keep it simple

    LFR changed to 10 man raid size - simple size, easier to boot afkers there alot of benifits to this to make it more personal. Think of it as a 5 man dungeoun difficulty or real close. Raid content even lfr should not be a loot pinata. (example loot 510ilvl)

    10 man normals - Basic ICC 10 man style (example 514ilvl)

    10 man heroic - Heroic progression 10 man style like ICC (example 518ilvl)

    25 man normal - its a 25 man raid for a more hardcore community (example 522ilvl)

    25 man heroic - hardcore raiding (example 526ilvl)

    10 and 25 mans split lockouts imo lfr not included. Now a Valor upgrade system can come back giving casuls a chance to upgrade gear from lfr to even heroic 25 man. But that would take a long while for one piece. Even a system like this for valor upgrading
    lfr 500 valor> 10man normal 750> 10man heroic 1500> 25 man normal 3000> you reached heroic question left in players hands how bad to u want that piece. Valor has a purpose we have choices and overall i think it would solve alot of problems.

  11. #31
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    I actually just thought of something. What about splitting the normal lockout but keeping the heroic lockout merged. So you can run 10 and 25 man normal if you would like but once you kill a boss on heroic in either raid size that is the only raid size you can activate heroic modes on for that week. This would boost community involvement by encouraging pugging 10 or 25 man normal, wouldn't make either size feel second class, get more people into 25 mans and give people more raid content they can do without it being required. The only people who would feel required would be hardcore raiders at the very start of a tier to get more people their normal gear while they progress on heroics. It also makes it so blizzard doesn't have to bother making another difficulty and ilvl set.

  12. #32
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    That isn't always an option.
    *Always* an option. Maybe its a choice between not raiding or recruiting bads - but sometimes its better to just take a break. Work hard enough at recruiting, you can find good people.

    I just don't think 10s work very well as heroic content. Too much pressure on comp/buffs/utility, attendance, and minor mistakes. It also locks you into 10s - once you're a 10 man, its very difficult to go back (yes, you could join a 25 man guild but that means all your friends/guildmates are still back in the 10 man guild).

    At some point, there's content that some (maybe a fair amount) of players enjoy doing but is still ultimately bad for the game and should be removed.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 05-11-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  13. #33
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    I just don't think 10s work very well as heroic content. Too much pressure on comp/buffs/utility, attendance, and minor mistakes
    the comp buffs thing i can understand, but the minor mistakes? heroic content should be challenging.

    At some point, there's content that some (maybe a fair amount) of players enjoy doing but is still ultimately bad for the game and should be removed.
    Um no, the point of games is to be enjoyed. if there's a fair amount of players enjoying something it should be embraced. If theirs a fair amount of players not enjoying something and just doing it for the sake gear, not because you enjoy it, that's straight up bad design.
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  14. #34
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    As another approach to this, how about instead of having to chose between 10 and 25 man, we allow people to chose between doing two of either 25 man, 10 man, or LFR. This way that If i wanted to do 25 progression with a guild, and do a 10 man with my friends I can. However lets say I can't make this weeks 10 man, I can do LFRs and still get some gear.

    In this set up, 10 and 25 should remain about the same dificulty, and give the same gear, while LFR gives lower tiered gear.

  15. #35
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    Leave things the way they are, but allow people to do both modes in a single weekly lockout.
    Still have LFR.
    Still have 10 man
    Still have 25 man

    The difference? If you killed a boss on either difficulty, you can't loot it a second time. Like how you only get SPA rep once per week per boss, regardless of if you kill it LFR or Normal or Heroic.

  16. #36
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    the comp buffs thing i can understand, but the minor mistakes? heroic content should be challenging.
    Challenging, not "oh the tank moved one second too late 8 minutes into a 10 minute fight and now we have to start all over". There's a difference between challenging and unnecessarily frustrating or luck-based.

    Um no, the point of games is to be enjoyed. if there's a fair amount of players enjoying something it should be embraced. If theirs a fair amount of players not enjoying something and just doing it for the sake gear, not because you enjoy it, that's straight up bad design.
    People enjoyed having portals, easy rep and valor, instant summoning to the raid instance, flying while leveling too. Sometimes you have to remove stuff that some people enjoy, maybe even a lot of people enjoy, for the good of the game.

  17. #37
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    Challenging, not "oh the tank moved one second too late 8 minutes into a 10 minute fight and now we have to start all over". There's a difference between challenging and unnecessarily frustrating or luck-based.
    There are no fights like that in the game.

    Sometimes you have to remove stuff that some people enjoy, maybe even a lot of people enjoy, for the good of the game.
    Those other things aren't reasons to play the game. Being able to play challenging ten man content is. And there are a LOT more 10 man raids than 25 man. My guild is ranked top 500 among 25 man raids. 10+25 we are more like top 4000. You'd be pissing off so many people by killing 10m raiding. That simply isn't going to happen, contrary to common belief Blizzard does not want to lose subscribers.

  18. #38
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    Don't confuse conveinece with enjoyment.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #39
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    Those other things aren't reasons to play the game. Being able to play challenging ten man content is. And there are a LOT more 10 man raids than 25 man. My guild is ranked top 500 among 25 man raids. 10+25 we are more like top 4000. You'd be pissing off so many people by killing 10m raiding. That simply isn't going to happen, contrary to common belief Blizzard does not want to lose subscribers.
    Some people raid 10 mans because they like 10 mans. Some people raid 10 mans because they like to raid, but are stuck in a 10 man for whatever reason.

    Don't confuse conveinece with enjoyment.
    Don't confuse enjoyment with beneficial.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knighterrant81 View Post
    Some people raid 10 mans because they like 10 mans. Some people raid 10 mans because they like to raid, but are stuck in a 10 man for whatever reason.
    And you would like to piss both groups off?

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