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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Should Lockouts be Separate?

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  2. #2
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    As a 10 man raider I miss the ICC method of Do heroic 25 mans then, after your progression schedule for the week is done, do some 10 man heroics with a smaller more tight knit group of friends. At the same time, I like the current system because I enjoy doing 10 mans more than 25 mans, so to have 10 mans be fairly equal to 25 mans is great. So I'm going to have to say that I am against splitting the lockouts again. I also didn't like the idea of not being able to cherry pick heroics because it allows 10 mans to work on the fights that their particular raid composition is best suited for first after knocking out the gimmes like jihn'rohk or morchok and ultraxion in DS. I do agree though that something should be done to the current model, I just can't think of an idea that wouldn't end up being a slight improvement for a small group of players while pissing off a much larger group.

  3. #3
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    So if I get what lore is suggesting its "You can choose if you want to do 10 or 25 man on heroic and normal. Once you enter and kill a boss in 25 hc you have your heroic lockout but then you can still pick your normal lockout and go do 10 man normal." This is a nice idea for heroic 25 man raiders... It is completely pointless for normal raiders and I feel this idea is not related to "how do we fix lockouts" but more "How do we fix heroic raiders skipping bosses by switching to normal and killing the harder bosses on normal so they get to the easy hc kills and can farm them" Seriously though, how is this of any use to a 10 man normal raiding team? How is this idea adding anything at all for them? During ICC i was in a big social guild that ran both 25 man icc and 10 man icc on a weekly basis. In the harder 25 man we usually killed 7 bosses and then called it a night. It wasn't very productive but that didnt matter to us. We just enjoyed raiding together and it was a ton of fun. Then on the other nights we would go into our ten man groups and clear the place. The suggestion lore makes doesnt have any impact on players in that situation and there are far more players that dont do heroic raiding then that do.

  4. #4
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    My raid guild has kind of hit this wall in raidind 10 man . like Lore said about being frustrated and stuck. In ICC we couldnt clear the place because we would do a fresh run every week and not have enough time and the raiders at that time had pleanty of skill but not enough heart to endure wipes mostly quitting after 5-10 wipes on a certain boss. Now, we have an awesome group of people that have tons of heart but 3-5 out of 10 dont have the skill with most of those being dps. We run normal 10 man and started very late so we are behind as it is and these are the issues we are encountering. We wipe 20 time learening Mechs another 10 times dividing dps correctly then antoher 10-15 wipes squeezing out enough dps. I would be alright with that if we were in current content but we are currently in HoF and we just downed Wind Lord which was great and some of our raiders thought so with the exception of the "good" raiders we have, i looked at it very negativly because for 20-30 attempts we were wiping under 10% 5 times under 2% and basically only killed the boss because we had all of our healers dpsing half the time. So before we really got going on Ambershaper i called a guild meeting to talk nicely about our dps issues and told everyone we are taking a week of and advised them to research and pull up their Dps because weve come as far as we can. that was 3 weeks ago and now we cant field a 10 man group because only the "good" people will show. I like raiding with my guild and the people we are raiding with and really would rather quit than go raid anywhere else. In ICC 10 man was more forgiving and you could carry a few "bad" friends. In MoP you have hardly any room for error that coupled with LFR Diluting potential raiders makes raiding in a casual 10 man near impossible. I like the older ICC way because it allowed me and the better players the ability to raid with our friends and also Pug 25 mans for that challenge that we needed. I personally think Back in Wrath the gap between good and bad raiders and the gap between people that cared or didnt care to get better was more narrow than it is now. Now it seems like people dont feel like they dont need to get better they can just go LFR or LFG and that good enough why learn anything it takes to long. I think thier are more people out there in my situation than Blizzard would think and maybe us fringe raiders are whats trying to bridge the ever widening gap between Hard core Raiders and LFR raiders. From what i see personally us fringe raiders are dying off. I Like WoW and i love raiding im not here to bash at all but something is broken. I think it all started with LFG and got compounded with LFR before that we all used to run 5 mans with our guildies or people that we got to know. If you give a person an option to Que and run on thier own or wait around for a 5 man to form in guild most would just Que qnd get it over with. I LFR and LFG also i dont like to but what else is there to do but its mind numbing and you dont even talk to others. We have lost accountability and community both inside and outside of guilds and its sad. It is trickling down to every aspect of the game now. For me the ICC template was better and i wish it was that way still.
    Thanks

  5. #5
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    Hey Lore, nice video. Really made me think (and by the way, congrats on the community manager. I'll defo will be following US blue posts now )

    I had a few... 'ideas' aswell, ways to (in my humble opinion) kind of balance it all to the ICC-model in some nice way, and I would love to hear your feedback/ideas on it

    - Itemlevel:
    You were saying that alot of people felt obligated at running LFR beside their normal raiding schedule just for gear. What if they balance everything out. Lets go crazy and say that they pick the old ICC-difficulty model where 25HC > 10HC = 25N > 10N (> LFR)
    Lets go crazy and pick random Ilvl's out of our.... *censored* and say that Heroic dungeons drop gear with an Ilvl of 700. LFR, mainly designed that casuals had a chance to see raidcontent without the whole raid schedule/obliagations, ACTUALLY serves it's true purpose, acts like a window for raidcontent (instead of being a loot piniata) and gave gear equal to Heroics. That way, 'serious' raiders, focused on progression, will be less likely force themselves to run LFR long after they started with clearing their content. With 10N being more focused (like you said) for a bunch of friends derping around in a 'oversized dungeon', lets go crazy and say that it drops 715 Ilvl gear.
    25N being 'as difficult' as 10HC, both will drop 730 Ilvl gear. This way, people who run 25 normal wont be focused on running 10N and 10HC, because running 10 normal isnt as rewarding (gearwise) due to the lower Ilvl. Sure, people will still be lured to replace those dodgy trinkets/Tier set items, but with 10N being easier, it will be easier to organise a raid to just fool around than to (like now) organise a raid that's equal as hard for the same gear.
    25HC will then give about 750 Ilvl (again just pulling out random numbers). This way, you wont be needing lockouts because gear makes it (to a degree) less interesting to do all 4 (5) raids, and the more hardcore raiders amongst us will feel happier cause they are rewarded with the best gear (and this might help the '25-man us dying' problem to a degree)

    - 3rd difficulty

    I think adding a 3rd difficulty will be a mess. Then there will be Heroic, normal, *insert name* and LFR. I would say add a 'debuff' like they did in ICC. Only this time, make it worth it to turn it off, by rewarding extra gear (3 extra pieces if you fully clear it without the 'nerf' in 10 and 7 for 25). This way, the developers dont need to spend extra effort in tuning a 4th difficulty level (lets be honest, being a complete noob with maths AND programming, even I know that -10% damage is less work than tuning every boss)


    I havent seen other replies so I might say the same as they did, or you yourself might have been thinking about it. So apollogies if they play the parrot. And for my horrible english (europe ftw), but I would love to hear your thoughts about it Thanks

    Have a nice weekend ^^
    Kind regards
    AszharaBDF

  6. #6
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    I honestly can't begin to describe just how overly joyful I am that I quit the game a couple of weeks ago!

    Reading their recent "announcements" and this episode of the Marmot (Pooling it all into one now), I will be looking very much forward to the absolute chaos that will occur with separating lockouts again.
    Especially since that means a ton of unhappy "casual" players.., not that there's much difference from today as their always whining about something, mostly loot.

    Watching them finally partially admit to their flaws is also really good, it is about high time they got their head out of their ass, and actually listened to the feedback that's well formulated and constructed in a proper manor on the forums.
    What their "data" show is widely open to interpretation, sadly for the community in general, they've done a piss poor job at understanding it, while blindly dismissing what players have said for years was actually happening in their own game.
    Breakdown of the community overall as well as the raiding scene, or guilds in general, as their nothing more then player housing features.


    Anyhoo, a good "final" Marmot for me, might tune in again for the Q2 report and the next 1 - 1.5 million loss to hear what else they want to revert.., though it's far to late to pull back their year long loyal players

    Ps: Is it congratulations on your Cm post Lore?- I'm not sure tbh

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    [/I]Anyhoo, a good "final" Marmot for me, might tune in again for the Q2 report and the next 1 - 1.5 million loss to hear what else they want to revert.., though it's far to late to pull back their year long loyal players
    If Blizzard wants to stop that from happening they need to finally accept the fact that it's not raiding that attracts the vast majority of people to WoW and start spending their resources in a more equitable manner.

  8. #8
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    I preferred the ICC (& BC) model of lockouts. Share loot locks/IL with 10 man and LFR so you can do things with friends or LFR suck. I think this system could be done with mych greater skill in itemization with what Bliz has learned since ICC to make the itemization issues nonexistant.

  9. #9
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    I think a normal/heroic lockout seems like a great idea, here's why:

    1. Progess Raiders
    The progress race seems to be more interesting if you would force kill orders, simply because that cherry-picking Lore talked about eventually means: "How fast can you run X amount of raid lockouts after eachother". It's also far more easier/fair for progress to compare time spent in the instance, because eventually, that's what matters.

    2. "Casual"/Normal Raiders
    Notice the quotation marks on casual. Normal raiders generally speaking don't do a lot of Heroic raiding anyway, so this wouldn't change anything for them.

    3. Midcore Raiders
    The people that have killed Lei-Shen, but haven't seen Ra-Den yet. For them, heroic progress would slow down a bit because they can't cherry-pick every week, but on the other hand, that also means they can clear normal in a day or two without having to call a raid halfway because they want to do the next boss on heroic and raider X who they really want for the attempts isn't here today. It also means that once they switch to Heroic-focus raid nights, they can still gear up alts/rerolls in normal with a group of e.g. 2 rerolls, 3 mains, 5 alts without a problem. Currently, the rerolls need to take a spot in a main raid and the 5 alts are out of luck because they need to PuG 5 more people to raid normal raids.
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  10. #10
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    I have nothing to say other than expressing my annoyance in the old days at the so called parity between 10 Heroic and 25 Normal.

    The guy making up the final DPS spot in a 25 Normal could slack LFR-style and get the same ilevel gear as someone doing 10HC.

    That was wrong.

    But anyway, LFR didn't need to exist. The easier 10 man modes of Naxx and nerfed ICC allowed pugs and social guilds (no skilled based selection) to raid together.

    So yeah separate the lockout, remove LFR and a month into each Tier start applying a 5% nerf to 10 Normal each week. Make new 5 mans to keep the social/casual players busy until the nerfs start to kick in and to allow alts to catch up.

    That would be better overall than we have now. Only downsides are:

    Hardcore 10 man guilds that formed as a result of the current system will be annoyed.
    Realms have been shrinking and may no longer be able to support 25 man guilds with enough quality players.
    Guild perks killed off the small social guilds so there may be no one left to benefit...
    Issues trying to make 10HC gear better than 25 Normal gear.

    Given the problems trying to find 25 HC quality players on many realms (the reason I quit in Wrath) it may be an idea to create parity between 10 HC and 25 HC. Allowing guilds to jettison the weaker players for the HC mode and run it in 10 man for the same or similar rewards as 25 HC.

  11. #11
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    Combining the lockouts and equalizing the loot was definitely a good change for me. I quit 25s after BC because I didn't like herding 25 cats, and while I had fun doing 10s in Wrath, I didn't like:

    * Not having access to legendaries
    * Hearing about how trivial 10s were from friends who ran them with previous-tier 25 gear
    * Some of my raiders feeling obligated to pug 25 normals, and then having no reason to care about the loot that dropped in heroic 10

    That said, I don't know if it was a net positive for the game overall. The 25s groups my friends were in mostly dropped to 10s or collapsed entirely, and many of those friends legitimately preferred raiding 25s. The effective number of difficulties went down (until LFR, which bundles a very low difficulty together with group size, individual loot, and typically a bunch of strangers instead of your friends), so when Blizzard misses their tuning targets like they did with Horridon through Tortos on 10, players can feel like they're out of options.

    An aside to Banzhe: with apologies to your sense of schadenfreude, Blizzard isn't actually going to split the lockouts again any time soon. Ghostcrawler says "maybe we made the wrong decision" about lots of things, and it doesn't generally presage a shift in direction.

  12. #12
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    I believe Lore answers his own question near the end, and also overcomplicates this whole thing. Yes, there needs to be organized content that are easier than current tier normal modes. What can be done about it without opening a different can of worms? Make early normal modes easier. In a tier with double digit bosses there is room for a more noticable scaling in difficulty to allow everyone to kill something, while still requiring a good amount of coordination to be able to kill everything

    At around 09.25 Lore says that in a way, both sides (10 man and 25 man) were more healthy with the old system. I believe this to be said from the perspective of a 25 man raider who did 10 man on his off-days and therefore a very biased view. The guilds who did 10 man exclusively back then was not in any way shape or form, healthy. There is a psychological factor of being looked upon as an inferior, that should not be underestimated. I happened to be the officer of a 10 man exclusive guild back then and let me tell you.. it was a nightmare. Noone wanted to join our "club of inferiors", even when our progress was good (relative to other guilds in the same situation - 25 man guilds steamolled past us in 10 man progress because of their gear).

    People (including Blizzard representatives) tend to state "25 man guilds are dying" as if that is a problem in and of itself. It's not. If people leave 25 man guilds to join 10 man guilds, it is mostly because that's where they want to be, they prefer the smaller guild environment. There is no denying that this cause a problem for those remaining in 25 man guilds, but if there are a significant amount of people who prefer that group size, they will join the remaining 25 man guilds on a server, keeping it healthy. If that group size is indeed dying out, despite the developers best efforts (slightly more loot per head and higher chance of thunderforged items), maybe it's time to look into prioritizing other areas of the game instead of maintaining and balancing two different group sizes?

    On my realm/faction there are currently no 25 man guilds raiding. I'm sure there are others playing on low-mid pop servers experiencing the same. If something needs to be done it is to allow us to hook up with similar minded people more easily. Paying a significant fee to transfer characters to another realm/faction holds a lot of people back from finding the guild where they belong, and seems excessive in a subscription based mmo now that more and more games in the genre move towards a free to play model.

    The problem with the proposed solution of splitting lockouts based on difficulty, is that 25 man heroic raiders will be able to run 10 man normals to get missing pieces. 10 man heroic raiders will not be able to do that because you can't scale a raid up, only down. I can already hear the cries of Paragon, who will need to recruit back up to 25 man to stay competitive. This certainly fixes cherry picking bosses, but I've never heard anyone describe this as a problem that needs fixing. In my opinion this creates bigger problems than it solves.
    Last edited by lubz; 05-11-2013 at 10:50 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lubz View Post
    People (including Blizzard representatives) tend to state "25 man guilds are dying" as if that is a problem in and of itself. It's not. If people leave 25 man guilds to join 10 man guilds, it is mostly because that's where they want to be, they prefer the smaller guild environment.
    If only people could stop thinking like this... one can dream.
    Same could have been said in Wrath: why would you want to encourage 10man if people don't really want to do it, as they prefer the more exciting 25man format.
    Add to that the fact that new 10mans are formed each week (check forums); this combined with the fact that the game is loosing players only leads to 3 possible scenarios: either more non-raiders want to raid, or they come from a seemingly unending stream of 25man guilds breaking appart (which is not the case) or 10mans tend to break up way too often. I dare say 10man is not the fun loving place that 10man raiders advertise. 25 needs to be encouraged solely for the stability it provides: they might be splitting appart but it takes ages for them to do so (much more than a 10man anyway).

  14. #14
    If only people could stop thinking like this... one can dream.
    Same could have been said in Wrath: why would you want to encourage 10man if people don't really want to do it, as they prefer the more exciting 25man format.
    Add to that the fact that new 10mans are formed each week (check forums); this combined with the fact that the game is loosing players only leads to 3 possible scenarios: either more non-raiders want to raid, or they come from a seemingly unending stream of 25man guilds breaking appart (which is not the case) or 10mans tend to break up way too often. I dare say 10man is not the fun loving place that 10man raiders advertise. 25 needs to be encouraged solely for the stability it provides: they might be splitting appart but it takes ages for them to do so (much more than a 10man anyway).
    I don't even get what you're trying to say here.

    In any case, the fact is that a lot of people really do enjoy the smaller raid formats. Especially organizers, it's much less of a nightmare for them. (Insert, "But my friend loved organizing 72 man raids in EverQuest, so you're wrong!" anecdote here.)

    As to the "third difficulty" thing or whatever...at some point it seems like the attitude shifted from, "Raids are hard, they're the pinnacle of progression in the game. They're the goal to work towards." to simply, "Ok, everyone just (needs/deserves/wants/whatever) to raid now." But even that wasn't enough, now we're endlessly worried about the granularity of difficulty. Raiding couldn't just be raiding anymore, we had to have Normal and Heroic modes. But lo and behold, that wasn't quite enough, so we had to have ever-increasing zone buffs to make the difficulty slowly diminish. But even that wasn't enough, some people apparently still found normal too hard, so we needed LFR. But now LFR is...too easy? or something? But normal is still too hard? So now we need not-really-normal-but-more-than-LFR?

    Come on. I always thought raiding was supposed to be about overcoming the best stuff that the development team could come up with. Not just this catered-to-you thing where you just go to collect loot and then complain.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I don't even get what you're trying to say here.
    I quoted a poster possiting that maybe devs should stop caring about 25 because, hey, 10man is more enjoyable apparently, given taht they are much more frequent. That's false. It is not more enjoyable per se: some people iwll love it, some people will loathe it. In Wrath 25 was more frequent, but we never infered that 10man developement should have halted at that point.

    If you want to dismiss my argument as anecdotal, go for it. But I'm yet to find *any* raider that enjoys 10 over 25, because surprise surprise: my friends and the people I hang out with enjoy the same things I do, much like your friends probably enjoy 10s a lot more. To be clear: I can dismiss your opinion as anecdotal too, for lack of data on my part.

    At the end of the day we need a healthier scene, for both 10 and 25. Ignoring any of the two won't solve any problem.

  16. #16
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    I'd add one more wrinkle (or subtract?) to your new lockout system, Lore: remove 10 man heroic.

    10 mans work best when they demand your attention to mechanics and reward you for skillful play (in other words, are normal mode). When you bump the difficulty up to heroic, it really shines a light on class balance issues and buff/utility. You spend more time worrying about why you DON'T have a certain class, than worrying about how to kill bosses. It puts pressure on the whole ranged/melee balance because a swing in composition by only one player makes a big difference in strategy. If you're doing normals, then it doesn't really matter all that much what classes you have, but in heroic mode it makes a big difference.

    So you have:

    Heroic lockout - 25 man only - item level X+13
    Normal lockout - 10 or 25 man shared - item level X
    LFR - 25 man only - item level X-20

    Problems this solves:

    No more complaining about the death of 25 man raiding - if you want to be a heroic raider, you raid 25 mans. Period. That also means that a lot of guilds will have to put together 25 man groups.

    Plays to the strengths of 10 man groups - emphasizes playing with friends who know what they are doing without putting too much pressure on class composition.

    Right now, the "alt run" has taken the place of the old 10 man ICC run. However, if you're a 10 man guild, unless everyone wants to come to the alt run, you have to pug a few folks every week, and you have to use all alts, so if someone in your guild (or a potential pug) doesn't feel like leveling an alt, then they can't participate. If you were coming from a 25 man guild *and* you could use mains to do a 10 man "beer run" it would be a lot easier to make a group. This causes a bit of drama sometimes (how come he gets to bring/get gear on his alt but I'm bringing my main?) but overall I think it would be better than the alt run - especially since its really hard to maintain an alt these days.

    It also makes gettting valor points as a raider a little more palatable.

    Lets guilds/players who like being a 10 man group play as a 10 man group without feeling second class - they just chose to be normal mode raiders. If they want to move up to heroic raiding, it won't be too hard since they'll have all the normal mode gear they need to apply to an early heroic mode guild with.

    In other words, there *was* a 3rd difficulty (even a 4th difficulty) back in ICC days - 10 mans.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 05-11-2013 at 12:18 PM.

  17. #17
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    Lets guilds/players who like being a 10 man group play as a 10 man group without feeling second class - they just chose to be normal mode raiders. If they want to move up to heroic raiding, it won't be too hard since they'll have all the normal mode gear they need to apply to an early heroic mode guild with.
    Why would removing the opportunity to do 10 man heroic raiding help make them not feel like second class citizens?

  18. #18
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    Blizzard just seems to experiment waaay too much and change systems that were already great. Lets start with Heroic 5 mans, they turned them into an absolute zerg fest in WoTLK for some reason, I don't recall Heroics being a true issue in TBC, yes some Heroics were considered unpuggable (at least with a pug tank). There was literally no reason for Blizzard to do that, they tried to rectify the problem in Cata but unfortunately the community was spoiled by then. (I think LFG was the bigger problem though). The core issue in TBC was raiding was largely inaccessible to a large population of players. Players that payed the same money felt entitled to the same content, which made perfect sense.

    WoTLK Blizzard got a lot right, while I think the initial Naxx > Ulduar difficulty was too steep for most, Blizzard was still working out it's system. After Ulduar raiding difficulty was no longer really tiered anymore in terms of difficulty. In Vanilla WoW the first boss of the next tiered Raid were harder then the final boss of the last tiered raid. Think MC's Ragnaros into BWL's Razorgore. Or even Kara's Prince into SSC/TK Hydross/A'lar. Casual guilds would skip the first present boss for the easier ones like Lurker or Void Reaver. That's what gated most people. WoTLK changed all of that which worked out great overall. Casuals could clear entire raids and while hardcore raiders were no longer overwhelmed by dramatic skips in difficulty. The biggest mistake in WoTLK was the abomination of Trial of the Crusader where we got 5 bosses in an arena that you had to potentially do 4 freaking times (Blizzard still needs to apologize for that one, we were all expecting that Spider place or Zul'awhatever, they were stalling for time no doubt)

    So for most of WoTLK raid content was accessible for everyone, especially 10 man guilds. If you were a 10 man raider you were just a casual, you wanted to have fun and you still could to Heroic 10 mans if you were good enough (the gear disparity could be a problem though). 25 man raiders had their big raids and then could do 10 mans later, while I wasn't a fan of running the same instance twice (I miss the ZG/ZA/AQ20 days) it was something to do.

    Cataclysm essentially cut your potential content in half. It was a stupid idea. I thought LFR was going to rectify that. During Cata I actually was a casual, I normally found myself with not enough to do, I thought LFR would provide me with moderate raid content. If it was a 10 man system i think it would have worked well, no different then the puggable Karazhan just a tad easier. They made it a 25 man zerg fest, it was an awful for me, it wasn't fun and I think that's pretty much what made me quit. Had there just been split lockouts during Cata I could have raided with my old guildies 10 man runs or their alt 10 man runs. Two lockouts provides more 10 man pugs and 25 man GDKP runs. I really don't think the whole 10 man loot vs 25 man loot was such a big controversy during WoTLK, infact I think it's a bigger deal in the single lockout system.

  19. #19
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    During ICC, we would raid as a guild two nights a week on a 10man lockout, then pug a 25man one night a week for those that still wanted to go. That is what I remember liking most about the two different lockouts was there was more pugging going on then. Of course, now the population of my server (as far as raiding population) has dwindled as the guilds transferred to high pop realms so I doubt allowing separate lockouts will 'fix' it since we just don't have the players anymore.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazzer View Post
    I quoted a poster possiting that maybe devs should stop caring about 25 because, hey, 10man is more enjoyable apparently, given taht they are much more frequent. That's false. It is not more enjoyable per se: some people iwll love it, some people will loathe it. In Wrath 25 was more frequent, but we never infered that 10man developement should have halted at that point.

    If you want to dismiss my argument as anecdotal, go for it. But I'm yet to find *any* raider that enjoys 10 over 25, because surprise surprise: my friends and the people I hang out with enjoy the same things I do, much like your friends probably enjoy 10s a lot more. To be clear: I can dismiss your opinion as anecdotal too, for lack of data on my part.

    At the end of the day we need a healthier scene, for both 10 and 25. Ignoring any of the two won't solve any problem.
    My point about maybe ignoring 25 man was an extreme suggestion, and only there to make a point. Please don't let that take the attention away from the main point. Wow's challenge in regard to 25 man raiders is to help those people find eachother.
    Last edited by lubz; 05-11-2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: Removed irrelevant rant

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