+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 23

Thread: Prot Warrior Question: Mastery vs Avoid

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7

    Prot Warrior Question: Mastery vs Avoid

    Greetings,

    did anybody tried focusing on avoid & stamina instead of pure mastery?
    if so would you recommend it?


    i'm sure there is no general answer. so i'd like to give you some background informations about my tanking style.

    my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte...euser/advanced
    i'm raiding in a 10-men guild who already managed 5/13 hm's. our secound tank is a haste focused prot paladin. so i get all the gear i need, because my tank comrade just takes haste plate items. until now i focused on getting as much mastery as i can while staying at ~ 600k hp unbuffed, hit capped and expertise soft capped.

    the reason i ask for expirience and advise is i'm unsadisfied with my performance in comparison to our pally tank. normally i got lesser incoming damage than our paladin, on the other hand he out damage me by far. but the incoming dmg reduction difference isn't as big as i wish and the outgoing damage difference is just frustrating. so i'm looking for another vialable stat wight which cuts damage spikes for efficiently instead of smoothing overall damage like pure mastery. because my healers aren't the smartest and fastest ones out there instant damage spikes is what kills me. i also like to get more hp to endure another hit to by my healers time to react.

    i already played around with my stats. when i'm gemming and enchanting for avoid i get ~ 13-15% additional avoid, get a bunch of hp and nerf my crit block nearly to the ground while getting expertise hardcapped (which is neccesary for this play style i think).

    when i think about actual content i would miss my mastery on jin'rokh, primordial and maybe lei shen. the other ones are magical or dot intense and seems to fit perfectly for a avoid/stam barrier cycle play style.

    so, is it worth it?
    Last edited by Tannhaeuser; 05-08-2013 at 05:39 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    No.

    The problem with avoidance is that whilst it is fairly decent for TDR it's not really great for anything else. Trading avoidance for mastery isn't really going to boost your DPS as what you gain in Revenge procs you lose in enrage uptime. If you want more DPS get the Expertise hard cap, and if you're willing to lose survivability replace GoVR with GoHtL and forget stamina get more mastery.

    But get the expertise hardcap. its good for every situation where you get to hit what you're tanking whether its magic, physical, whatever.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I think i miswrote a bit. I don't want to do more DPS. I'm just a bit jealious about the DPS of our tank paladin. What i want is better spike damage management and time for lazy healers. I thought about expertise hardcap for more barriers for better control, nothing else.

    Don't flame me, but what does TDR mean?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    TDR = Total Damage Reduction. So for example if you dodge an attach you reduce damage by 100% but if you block it you only reduce damage by 30% (or 60%? I think, I forget the critical block numbers).

    You SHOULD be hit and expertise hard capping, regardless of what your DPS wants are. I'm not sure why you're not.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    Smoothest damage intake? Hit and expertise Hard cap then as much mastery and stam as you can squeeze out the gear.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    Also, if you want to avoid damage spikes, you do NOT want avoidance. Avoidance/sbar spam are GREAT ways to get HUGE damage spikes. Appropriate use of sbar/sblock depending on fight mechanics is the best solution.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    No.
    i see your anwser is no. so it does'nt seem to be reasonable. did you expirience it yourself or do you rely on theoretical numbers? if so can you link or do some math that i'm able to understand?

    Also, if you want to avoid damage spikes, you do NOT want avoidance.
    Avoidance/sbar spam are GREAT ways to get HUGE damage spikes.
    In my experience autohits didn't result in big dmg spikes, but casts/events followed by hits does.
    So i thought getting dire call, triple puncture, hits and hoping for 1 or 2 avoids/block may be better then crit blocking 2 hits and ending dead.

    Appropriate use of sbar/sblock depending on fight mechanics is the best solution.
    of course i will use shieldblock/barrier as needed. i use the addon shieldmaid to instantly notice which one is better and go through my logs to unterstand when which abitlity will reduce more damage. so, i already weave in block/barriers when needed and will always do. i'm just curios if avoid/stam is a reasonable stat wight.

    You SHOULD be hit and expertise hard capping, regardless of what your DPS wants are. I'm not sure why you're not.
    i always thought with a mastery focused build and frequently use of shield blocki don't get a big gain in rage regenration between expertise soft and hard cap because of my big enrage uptime. i think i read so in thecks warrior analysis. if not, do you know exactly how many rage per second/minute i get from being exp hard instead of soft capped?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    Both. Personal Experience that Theck later mathed out to be true.

    You're right it is the sync up of abilities that are dangerous however with SBar you end up taking no damage and then a synced up spike when Sbar fall off, with Sblock you take all the full magic hits But very few are synced with with full melee hits. this is sort of the same reason Avoidance is less favoured, whilst you occasionally complete avoid a full melee hit, you're opening yourself up to taking full melee hits that will be synchronous with DoTs

    Last time i looked at shieldmaid it was focused entirely on TDR. TDR is not a good metric for tank survivability.


    There are 2 reasons you need the expertise hardcap, firstly it eliminates the Parry>Parry>fuck i have no rage to counter this boss special oh i'm dead its a wipe phenomena. Secondly whilst we talk about Rage gen in terms of RPS rage does not come that smoothly, it comes in chunks of 10/15/20/25 so whilst you don't need the hard cap to generate 6.7 rps needed to keep Sblock on cd, if you average rage gain over an infinite period of time, you do need the hard cap in order to generate the RPS to keep Sblock on cd over its 9 second CD assuming a 1.5s boss swing timer. you can maybe be 0.2% below the hard cap and maintain sufficnet rage gen. with slower boss swing times you need to be closer to the cap, ideally you would never be below the cap. a quick sim buts the difference at about a 6% increase in RPS.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    Thanks for your advice. Very helpful.
    Maybe i should follow my mastery path, hard capping expertise with my hc Jin'Kun trinket and forget about an avoid build.

    Last time i looked at shieldmaid it was focused entirely on TDR. TDR is not a good metric for tank survivability.
    i use shieldmaid as hint which ability would reduce more damage based on damage taken around the last rage spending period.
    keeping boss events like breaths and spiky attacks in mind, whats wrong with this?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    Which would you rather take?

    3 hits in a row of 80% of your health pool or absorb absorb 100% of your healthpool?
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    The other thing is your granular health form a healer's perspective, what I mean is that a healer would rather see you take 3 hits in a row for 20% of your health each time than 0 damage, 0 damage, 60% of your health in one hit. It's the same total damage done, but it's slower and more predictable for healers to react.

    Also, I tanked more than just Jin'Rohk last night for the first time (I'm main spec fury these days) since our tank wasn't around, and I am WAAAAYYYYYY undergeared, but I tanked everything just fine because of ability usage, and the healers were really impressed with the fact that even though I'm 40 item levels lower than our main prot warrior who couldn't be there, I took roughly the same damage, and that's because I knew when to use shield block or shield bar or stack the two to avoid a huge damage spike but still smooth out the damage around it, then use an appropriate cooldown during the time when I might not have shield block up or if I spent all my rage on avoiding a 6 second high incoming dps period and continued to take more damage.

    I'm not even at 600k hps buffed with food/flask but I am hit/expertise capped, and I was tanking things that I should have waaay higher ilevel for no problem because I follow what Teng/Theck suggest.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    isn't this what shieldmaid do?
    - showing if shieldbarrier with actual vengeance absorbs more or less then shield block.
    sure, if there is no magical, bleed or ae dmg i can predict by myself that shield block will be the better choice. otherwise i can't. can you?

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Tannhaeuser View Post
    isn't this what shieldmaid do?
    - showing if shieldbarrier with actual vengeance absorbs more or less then shield block.
    sure, if there is no magical, bleed or ae dmg i can predict by myself that shield block will be the better choice. otherwise i can't. can you?
    That is TDR, but that's TDR both for that special attack window and doesn't take into account the granularity of your total damage intake that I was talking about earlier.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    I'm not even at 600k hps buffed with food/flask but I am hit/expertise capped, and I was tanking things that I should have waaay higher ilevel for no problem because I follow what Teng/Theck suggest.
    i'm not sure what you're trying to say, but the proper use of your active mitigation and cooldowns while being undergeared doesn't proof any stat wight to be right - just that you might know and be smart enough to do your job.

    EDIT
    That is TDR, but that's TDR both for that special attack window and doesn't take into account the granularity of your total damage intake that I was talking about earlier.
    thats why is sad: "keeping boss events like breaths and spiky attacks in mind"
    shieldmaid is just a hint what to use. and it do well. sure, it can't predict spike events, but thats what i'm for.
    when killing bosses over and over again i don't need shieldmaid, because i know when what to use.
    but in new situation in periods of constant damage without any big event it helps me alot. don't know whats the problem with this.
    Last edited by Tannhaeuser; 05-08-2013 at 07:57 AM. Reason: additional answer

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,966
    Look at my example 80%-80%-80% versus 0-0-100% with the first you take 240% of your HP as damage, with the latter only 100% HP as damage the later chain takes less damage but you die, the former you take more damage but live. you prevent less damage with the former chain too.

    EDIT: if Theck's math isn't enough to convince you of the stat priority, nothing i say or do will be.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 05-08-2013 at 08:04 AM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Tannhaeuser View Post
    i'm not sure what you're trying to say, but the proper use of your active mitigation and cooldowns while being undergeared doesn't proof any stat wight to be right - just that you might know and be smart enough to do your job.
    Hit/Expertise is HOW you do active mitigation properly, gotta have dat rage.

    Hit to cap = expertise to hard cap >> mastery = stam >> Avoidance.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    7
    Hit/Expertise is HOW you do active mitigation properly, gotta have dat rage.
    based on our last jin'rokh hc kill:
    rage through shield bash and revenge: 790
    missed out rage through misses: 90
    i can't see when the misses occured. maybe while tanking, maybe not. could attenuate the missed out ones.

    what i'm trying to say? not being hard capped doesn't prevent me on timed active mitigation.
    "just" my uptime suffers. and who knows? i might have crit blocked with the additinional mastery and get the some or more amount of rage instead.

    however, you're both right. hard capped playstyle is more controllable. and i'd like to see if 6% more rage gain do the difference.

    /EDIT

    if Theck's math isn't enough to convince you of the stat priority, nothing i say or do will be.
    I'm already convinced, thanks!

    Aggathon, you sad you did very well on Jin'Rokh. So i'm inquisitive in your log. Do you mind sharing it with me? Maybe i can learn something from it.
    Last edited by Tannhaeuser; 05-08-2013 at 08:25 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,595
    *throws table* apparently since our usual logger wasn't there that night I don't actually have the log of me tanking those fights.

    BLARGH, I really wanted to go through them myself... dammit now I'm all sad n stuff.

    Anyways... it's also not really how much rage is "missed out on" over the course of a fight, it's when you need it. If you're at 40 rage and that next shield slam needs to land so you can put up shield block before a special ability or whatever, and the shield slam misses and you eat a bunch of damage. That's bad. Or no rage and need some for sbar or whatever, point is it's missing rage at a critical juncture, and it may not happen every fight especially if you start out gearing stuff, but taking out that variable and not relying on this like:

    So i thought getting dire call, triple puncture, hits and hoping for 1 or 2 avoids/block may be better then crit blocking 2 hits and ending dead.
    is critical.

    Hope should never be a part of a boss fight. If there's any fight where you think something is random or you have to hope events pan out just right, then you're not doing the fight properly.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,369
    As a healer, I'm gonna pitch in here and give you the other PoV:
    As most healers need to be able to somewhat predict your incoming damage a second or 2-3 in advance, avoidance is useless to us.
    Why? Because avoidance is too unreliable to count on working, so I'll simply assume you won't dodge/parry and if you do, it'll be just the same to me as if I got heal-sniped by a 'smart heal'.
    On the other hand, I can assume that you'll be blocking roughly 70% of all attacks if you're geared for Mastery and using SBlock properly. Roughly 30 of those 70 will be critical blocks. That means that I can assume you take that 70% damage, but I'll still get more than half my heals worth if you crit block. On the other hand, if you do take a full hit, it's only half more than what I expected, and assuming you have enough health, I can just land a bigger heal on you afterwards to heal up, no harm done. Especially because I can assume that a Mastery tank will have Shield Block up again soon, so he won't be taking full damage during the 6 seconds it'll be up.
    With SBarrier on the other hand, I have no idea on the rhytm of when it's going to be up, which together with avoidance makes it very difficult to predict the damage income you'll take, so I'm forced to use big heals on you, doing a lot of overhealing, JUST for when you're unlucky and have no rage.

    PS: Paladins are completely OP right now, our GL/maintankadin stacking Haste frequently competes with healers on the meters simply due to the amount of healing he does with Sacred Shield and (glyphed) Seal of Insight. Perhaps if rage generation scaled with Haste and crit block would also scale with crit rating we could start to compete with them :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Mists of Pandaria Protection Warrior Spreadsheet
    Warlords of Draenor One Minute Field Guides

  20. #20
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    104

    Prot Warrior Question: Mastery vs Avoid

    X2 with what ^^ said. I play a prot warrior and holy paladin, and I prefer mastery builds because the damage taken is a lot smoother. Even tanking, I prefer mastery. It's nice knowing that you'll be able to at least block 30% of a physical attack.

+ Reply to Thread

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts