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Thread: How to improve?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Does everyone have something to help them track the things they need to track and are they tracking the the right things?
    If you mean DBM giving them timers and telling ten when something bad is happening then yes, if you mean NeedToKnow or some kind of CD tracker then I don't know. I'll have to find out.

  2. #22
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    Using more resources for info could give insight into why AMR and noxxic gave you conflicting advice. I'm guessing it was for bear. Iirc, stacking crit vs dodge is dependent on whether you want active or passive damage mitigation. I'm not saying one is right or wrong. Just that having more information at your disposal can help you make better informed decisions. Its like only watching fatboss guide videos and not lore. They rarely give identical advice but they both give insight that can be helpful.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    ...That shouldn't even be part of your process...
    This may sound a bit off but it isn't meant to: if something isn't part of a learning or improvement process then it must be known inherently - i.e. you were born knowing it. Are you saying that there is in an innate skill level that is required?

    I could believe this as it would fit neatly into the "something missing" that I am looking for. Presumably, something lacking on an innate level could not be learned? This takes me back to my original point - if it can be learned, then how? You can see that this question goes beyond encounter tactics.

    I gather from your third paragraph that English may not be your first language, so I apologise if I have misinterpreted your point.

  4. #24
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    The latter. Take the pally tank, DBM will tell him how long till the next triple puncture, but how does he track how long is left on ShotR? if he's got 3 seconds till TP and 2.5 seconds left on ShotR, he needs to get another one up. but if he's 2.5 seconds till TP and got 3 seconds left he's better off waiting and maybe dumping the holy power with a WoG after TP hits. if he doesn't have something to track ShotR uptime this will be completely lost on him.

    EDIT: Ion's saying that just reading a guide isn't going to cut it, you need to practice until it's not even a conscious thing. at first you might read guide that says "interupt boss's spell of doom" at first you might not even notice he's casting it further on you mightsee it and then think "ah yes gott interupt that, wheres my interupt?" and later "ah spell of doom, shield bash", eventually you get the point where where you don't even think about, interupts just happen, and you don't even realise its you doing them. and it ends up being like breathing, if you think about it actually requires a lot of effort to do it perfectly, if you don't think about it your brain just handles it, and a lot better than you could consciously.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 04-18-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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  5. #25
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    So just from looking at the raid overall your DPS are definitely pretty far behind. They seem to be mostly trying to "do the right thing" but they're just missing procs, have low uptimes on buffs, and are overall more or less sub-optimal. You are right to be attempting a systemic approach here but you have to ask yourself (and your raiders), do they truly want to be better? It's an important question because the road from where they are "Ok, but not good" to where you seem to want to go "Good" is quite a dramatic slope. Your raid appears roughly at the elbow of the asymptotic skill curve and from here it takes serious effort, both personal and as a group to even get to "good" and I can guarantee you that not everyone in your raid wants to get there (or else some of them already would be).

    The process is slow but here's the key steps.
    Step #1. Learn the basics of each class/spec (icy veins, video guides, Ask Mr. Robot). It seems you guys have done this.

    Step #2. Learn how to optimize your UIs (both graphical and physical) to give you the information you need and access to the abilities you need quickly. (I'd be surprised if even 2 people in your raid are using Weakauras or have even heard of it). This process takes time and iteration. I redo my UI and keybinds every expansion, constantly re-optimizing. There's a fantastic guide on method's forums for keybinds that I reckon will blow your mind.

    Step #3. Find the real sources of class/spec specific information out there. I can't list them all, there's usually a site dedicated to a class if not a spec where 3-7 wizards live who do endless amounts of number crunching. Find these people, ask questions, learn, absorb as much as you can. You don't have to be the wizard, just know him and follow him around begging for wisdom.

    Step #4. Practice, practice, practice, practice. Raid every chance you get, do dungeons, hit target dummies, train muscle memory. This game isn't particluarly fast (compared to RTS or FPS), but it is still fast enough that if you have to think you are probably going too slow, at least for your real rotation and reactionary abilities. There's only one way to train muscle memory and that's time.

    Step #5. Analyze. World of Logs, CompareBot, etc ... these are the tools you use to determine why people are dying, if they are keeping up their self buffs or are keeping up dots/bleeds/debuffs, or if they are missing procs, etc.


    That's the process. It is ongoing and never ends. I consistently rank as DPS and I feel like the gap between the best and myself is staggering so understand the curve is indeed asymptotic. Good luck. Be sure your raid wants to do this because you are going to leave some people behind.
    Last edited by feralminded; 04-18-2013 at 11:04 AM.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    This may sound a bit off but it isn't meant to: if something isn't part of a learning or improvement process then it must be known inherently - i.e. you were born knowing it. Are you saying that there is in an innate skill level that is required?

    I could believe this as it would fit neatly into the "something missing" that I am looking for. Presumably, something lacking on an innate level could not be learned? This takes me back to my original point - if it can be learned, then how? You can see that this question goes beyond encounter tactics.

    I gather from your third paragraph that English may not be your first language, so I apologise if I have misinterpreted your point.
    English IS my first language, it's just extremely ambiguous wrt "you".

    I wasn't trying to imply that it CAN'T be learned or isn't part of the learning or improvement process. I was trying to say that it needs to be learned so well that you're not thinking about it. It IS something that can (and should) be learned. It's learned by paying attention and repetition. There's no such thing as "innate skill" in WoW. It's like any thing you do...you learn to be good at doing it by doing it...but in order to really learn you need to pay attention. It's a skill sorely lacking in a large percentage of people.

    You learn to be good at killing WoW bosses by killling WoW bosses. You learn your rotation by standing in front of a target dummy for an hour and practicing it until it becomes second nature. Etc.

    You also can't just wipe 3 or 4 times and call it...if you want to learn you need to spend time learning...if you haven't wiped 30 times, you haven't really tried. Paragon wiped 500 times before they killed heroic Ragnaros back in Firelands.

    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Step #4. Practice, practice, practice, practice. Raid every chance you get, do dungeons, hit target dummies, train muscle memory. This game isn't particluarly fast (compared to RTS or FPS), but it is still fast enough that if you have to think you are probably going too slow, at least for your real rotation and reactionary abilities. There's only one way to train muscle memory and that's time.

    Step #5. Analyze. World of Logs, CompareBot, etc ... these are the tools you use to determine why people are dying, if they are keeping up their self buffs or are keeping up dots/bleeds/debuffs, or if they are missing procs, etc.


    That's the process. It is ongoing and never ends. I consistently rank as DPS and I feel like the gap between the best and myself is staggering so understand the curve is indeed asymptotic. Good luck. Be sure your raid wants to do this because you are going to leave some people behind.
    Specifically this. Very well-said.
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  7. #27
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    Buy Adderall for your raid?
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    It's much appreciated, but what you've highlighted is a series of tactical errors that we made (with a few exceptions of course) for one encounter. This will be helpful for the Horridon fight I'm sure, but that's why I didn't originally post any links - I expected that it would move the thread away from my request for help with general improvement into a discussion about one fight.

    I've wracked my brains for an analogy and I'm afraid this is the best I can come up with...

    Imagine that a friend has bought a sports car and you take him to a track day to find out what he can do with it. He does a few laps and afterwards you look at the telemetry. You point out that he missed an apex on Corner A, braked too late on Corner B, was too late on the gas coming out of Corner C. He says "I'm sure you're right, but what I need is advice on how to drive a car fast". He needs general advice, not specifics on a particular circuit.
    i think i know what you're asking.

    the best tool i've found for improving my own dps is comparebot http://raidbots.com/comparebot/
    this tool works great for dps, and has some use for tanking or healing.

    step 1: go to WoL, click on rankings|dps|<raid>
    step 2: change All Regions to US & EU
    step 3: select the tab for your raid size/difficulty
    step 4: find the encounter you are working on and click Rankings
    step 5: click on the spec that you are playing
    step 6: browse the top logs and try to find a fight that had a similar length to yours, then click on the player's name
    step 7: you should be at the fight logs now, so click on the player's name again to drill down one more level
    step 8: copy/paste the current website address into comparebot "Parse URL"
    step 9: get to the same WoL report/level on your own toon and paste into the second "Parse URL"
    step 10: profit!

    you can now compare every detail of the fight with someone who clearly knows how to play well. look for:

    rotation
    go to the damage tab, uncheck total damage (this is skewed by other factors), uncheck #hits, check average hit, uncheck # dot ticks, ticks/minute, and dot crit %. if melee, check parried.

    what you have now is a good comparison to see how your rotation compares. you can see on average how many times you use an attack/minute compared to a ranked player. you can also see what that attacks contribution to your dps was and what it should be.

    average hit is interesting; partly it will tell you what you cannot control and that is gear difference (crit % helps you normalize the number). however, it also tells you how well you are stacking buffs/debuffs, which brings us to the next tab...

    buffs
    uptime is what you want to look at here, and compare the major ones. if your % uptime is lower, try to improve.

    now that you've compared basic uptimes, the next step is to look at buff stacking. go back to the WoL report and click on buffs cast. now click on the "#" sign next to one of the important buffs to bring up the buff timeline graph. do the same for other dps buffs, trinkets, potions, as well as debuffs (the debuffs here are debuffs you've cast, so you'll see things like Colossus Smash, etc). you really only want to add buffs/debuffs that alter your damaging abilities and that you can either control (i.e. actively use) or track (i.e. trinket procs). something like Taste for Blood would be irrelevant for this purpose.

    you'll see green boxes under the timeline graph; look at how well ranked players stack their buffs and compare that with your own graph. as an example, for a warrior you should see a big stack of buffs at 20% to line up with execute phase. you should also see a prepot and most other buffs stacked on the pull.

    let me know if this helped. i used these tools extensively when i was dpsing, and they helped me get ranked on quite a few fights.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I use a combination of NeedToKnow and WeakAuras to track my uptimes or alert me when something needs to happen.
    I use the same; just haven't figured out how to get WeakAura to tell me when the trinkets proc - can'f figure out the LUA string.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    ...if you haven't wiped 30 times...
    We've wiped about 65 times on Horridon. Most of those, pre-nerf.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    We've wiped about 65 times on Horridon. Most of those, pre-nerf.
    Sure, but can you tell me why you wiped each of those times? What chain of events caused it?

    If not, then you're just wasting your time. If so, you'll get there eventually assuming people are actively working on fixing the problems that cause the wipes.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    ...but you have to ask yourself (and your raiders), do they truly want to be better?
    This is a very good question. If I'm totally honest, I haven't really enjoyed the game since WotLK. I'm plugging away at it because I don't want to leave a guild that I've been part of for years and as long as I'm staying, I don't want us to continue to spend night after night endlessly wiping.

    Given the new design philosophy, "casual" won't cut it any more so it's either go on wiping or get better. As GM, it's my job to do what I can to help matters, which is why I'm here asking you guys (and appreciating your help). As for the others, that's probably a question that needs to be asked.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I use the same; just haven't figured out how to get WeakAura to tell me when the trinkets proc - can'f figure out the LUA string.
    just need to know the name of the buff each trinket gives.
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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just need to know the name of the buff each trinket gives.
    Thanks, was trying with the trinket's name. DOH. Whoever it was that mentioned Comparebot, thank you. I never used it before, but I can see what I'm doing wrong with my hunter, it's amazing.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    I've also tried some of the “how to play your character” guides on YouTube but they seem to follow the same formula: here are the talents, here are the glyphs, here is the rotation – now watch me do this boss/training dummy/dungeon. This doesn't really add anything useful.
    Just going to chime in that the reason people practice on dummies is because when you get into an actual raid you don't want to be thinking about your rotation. You want to just do that rotation without thinking, that'll let you avoid things like:

    standing in colored stuff
    missing the new add that spawned and gibbed a healer
    letting that spell you had to interrupt go off

    It's quite easy to get overwhelmed and miss the graphics on the screen or the raid warnings from DBM / RL / ect. So removing your rotation from the list of things to think about will do wonders for your raid awareness. A lot of people dumb this down to 'just pay attention!' but the truth is it's about familiarity so you have less things to think about and more capacity to process new info.

    You said you've been around since WotLK? Remember Heigen dance? Most people didn't clear it by figuring it out on the fly, but by remembering the simple pattern the goo would splash up in. It really didn't have anything to do with who had their eyes open...

    Of course not everyone wants to go through practicing on a dummie (it's boring after all). So in the past the best way to practice rotations was to run through a bunch of 5-mans and see if you can keep the rotation together through different situations, not sure if that's any more fun now with the current state of 5-mans...

    I guess the other thing you can do is go into LFR and compare with those guys (it helps that standing in stuff / missing adds / interrupts is not lethal in LFR). The downside is LFR can lead to bad habits since you can end up ignoring so many mechanics in LFR.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I use the same; just haven't figured out how to get WeakAura to tell me when the trinkets proc - can'f figure out the LUA string.
    If you go to wowhead the comments for just about any trinket has the aura name. Type the aura name into the "aura name" field under trigger and you're good to go. For instance my bad Juju procs "Juju madness", wowhead told me this. Personally I display my procs as countdown timers because then I know how long I have to sneak stuff in but you can make weak auras display a meowing cat if you like. Also audio triggers are helpful for certain things (I use the same audio trigger for "standing in fire", my brain now knows when that audio cue happens I NEED TO MOVE NOW)

    No mod I've ever seen has as dramatically improved my ability to customize my UI as Weakauras. It's replaced basically all of the other mods I used to use combined. Hell I use it for the vast majority of the stuff I BigWigs/DBM do.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    This is a very good question. If I'm totally honest, I haven't really enjoyed the game since WotLK. I'm plugging away at it because I don't want to leave a guild that I've been part of for years and as long as I'm staying, I don't want us to continue to spend night after night endlessly wiping.

    Given the new design philosophy, "casual" won't cut it any more so it's either go on wiping or get better. As GM, it's my job to do what I can to help matters, which is why I'm here asking you guys (and appreciating your help). As for the others, that's probably a question that needs to be asked.
    Well as a GM let me tell you, the big picture questions are far more important. My guild is what I consider mediocre (85th percentile), even though I know that's very good its far below where I personally want (95+, which is the level that I play at) so I continue to push and push and push and the truth is I can only get so much out of many of these players and I've marginalized some longtime players who really can't play at that level and honestly it feels bad. Now I feel ok doing this because in my case it's the 80% of the raid being held back by the 20% of firestanders/casuals ... so its ok if not required for me to push out the 20% so the 80% won't suffer but still as a GM I need to worry about these things and so do you.

    Honestly if you are in the 20% and not the 80% you need to find someone else to run that guild and move on because marginalizing 80% of your players for 20% is not your job as GM. I often ask myself this exact question to know for certain if I am doing the right thing as a leader.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    If you go to wowhead the comments for just about any trinket has the aura name. Type the aura name into the "aura name" field under trigger and you're good to go. For instance my bad Juju procs "Juju madness", wowhead told me this. Personally I display my procs as countdown timers because then I know how long I have to sneak stuff in but you can make weak auras display a meowing cat if you like. Also audio triggers are helpful for certain things (I use the same audio trigger for "standing in fire", my brain now knows when that audio cue happens I NEED TO MOVE NOW)

    No mod I've ever seen has as dramatically improved my ability to customize my UI as Weakauras. It's replaced basically all of the other mods I used to use combined. Hell I use it for the vast majority of the stuff I BigWigs/DBM do.
    Thanks. I'll try this tonight, I was using the trinket name. I use the sounds too, I find audio cues much more helpful.

    I really think the biggest thing you can do to get better is know your toon, it's abilitites and when to use them. Looking at the logs you can see who's using and not using their abilities.

    Last night we had a wipest on the bird boss. Our tanks were taking a crap load of damage. I parsed the logs quickly and saw on our 6 minute attempts, Pally never used Ardent Defender, never used Divine Protection (on a fight like that where there's a good bit of physical damage, if the tank isn't soaking green stuff, glyphing DP might be useful) and I didn't even go into Shield up time. Our DK tank used his Bone Armor once on the pull, I didn't see a Vamp Blood used and IBF was used once in an over 6 min fight, no use of AMS.

    Go through the logs and see who's doing what, it's really enlightening.

  19. #39
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    or disheartening.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Pally never used Ardent Defender, never used Divine Protection (on a fight like that where there's a good bit of physical damage, if the tank isn't soaking green stuff, glyphing DP might be useful) and I didn't even go into Shield up time. Our DK tank used his Bone Armor once on the pull, I didn't see a Vamp Blood used and IBF was used once in an over 6 min fight, no use of AMS.
    This may be a silly question, but is there any way of reducing the number of abilities that you need to use? Im wondering if it could be like trinkets, where you can avoid the "on use" items if there is a similar passive one available? I know that in the talent trees there are active and passive options at most levels. if I were to swap active talents for passive ones (thereby reducing the number of things I had to monitor) would it be viable?
    I have a horrible feeling I know the answer to this.

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