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Thread: How to improve?

  1. #41
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    you can make macros that use "on use" trinkets at the same time as frequently used abilities that line up well with the trinket effect.

    For example:
    One of my trinkets has an "on use" that gives me a bunch of strength and it's on a minute cooldown, just like bloodbath, so I macro in bloodbath and the trinket into bloodthirst and they're always up whenever I need them.

    Now, this can be bad if you need to initiate a burn phase and pop all cooldowns and these things are off cooldown, so instead of macroing them into bloodthrist you could just make a bloodbath/trinket macro. I have a macro that casts skull banner and recklessness at the sametime, for example, that I use for burn phases.

    This doesn't eliminate the number of abilities you use both does minimize the need to micromanage abilities.
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  2. #42
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    MACROS!

    Though you have to be smart about them, generally DPS have it easier than tanks or healers with this ;whilst its probably Ok for a warrior to macro Blood both and dragon roar together as both are 1 min CDs and rather complimentary, its probably a very bad idea to say macro say Death strike and Bone shield as one is a CD that should be used to counter boss mechanics and one is a rotational ability.

    and yes you can take passive talents and be viable it just may not be optimal for a given encounter.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    This may be a silly question, but is there any way of reducing the number of abilities that you need to use? Im wondering if it could be like trinkets, where you can avoid the "on use" items if there is a similar passive one available? I know that in the talent trees there are active and passive options at most levels. if I were to swap active talents for passive ones (thereby reducing the number of things I had to monitor) would it be viable?
    I have a horrible feeling I know the answer to this.
    In fairness, it's not up to you to monitor other players' use of their abilities/trinkets, unless it's for a raid wide purpose or some type of general reminder i.e. calling which pally should pop Devotion Aura, or which warrior should use Rallyiing Cry or just a general reminder to the raid, "health stones". Things like that, but to tell the tank, "high physical damage coming, pop your dodge trinket" - just no, that's part of knowing ones toon.

    I can say this, when I had my cup of coffee with a US top 100 guild, the tanks were always rolling cooldowns, (you'd see it announced in raid chat) always; also, the raid knew the encounter, everyone had some knowlege of what was going on. Hell, first day in ToT we had 12 on early for raid we went in and kept pulling Jin'rohk just to see the abilities; by the time the raid formed he was a two shot.

    No boss was looked at as a walk in and one shot. The first pulls were always to get an idea of the fight, to study it live, go as far as we could to see the mechanics, then the RL gave a strat with people adding if they saw something he didn't. Then it was execution. It's hard to explain the attitidue, but it was very scientific - "here's the problem, here's how we solve it and what we all need to do." It was like probing for the weak spot then striking. I can't say I really liked the people there, but the experience was great.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthenware View Post
    This may be a silly question, but is there any way of reducing the number of abilities that you need to use? Im wondering if it could be like trinkets, where you can avoid the "on use" items if there is a similar passive one available? I know that in the talent trees there are active and passive options at most levels. if I were to swap active talents for passive ones (thereby reducing the number of things I had to monitor) would it be viable?
    I have a horrible feeling I know the answer to this.
    At your level (judging by the logs) the answer to this is usually YES and DO IT. A small example is I raid lead a 25 man guild and spend a ton of my time watching raid timers and yelling shit out. The optimal kitty dps spec includes a very trying talent called Dream of Cenarius that when done properly yields me 4% more DPS over the totally passive talent I have (Heart of the Wild, which does have other benefits I exploit but lets ignore that for now). The issue is Dream of Cenarius, when done wrong, can result in a 6% DPS loss. So given that I don't have the energy to "do it right" while raid leading and if I do it REALLY wrong I can lose DPS ... on top of giving up the utility of the passive ... overall as a raid leader HoTW has been a godsend to me. I still do rank (though haven't gotten a top 20 yet without DoC) but I know I'm not truly maximizing my DPS ... still it works out to be a net-positive.

    That said there some "only slightly sub-optimal" ways to cheat a bit while tanking. For instance taking theotherone's example above if you are a DK you can just bind bone-shield directly into your normal defensive ability (dunno shit about DKs, but everyone has a defensive ability of some kind they spam every 6-10 seconds). This isn't optimal but it will guarantee you will keep bone shield up when you are tanking (don't bind it into offensive abilities because then it will proc when NOT tanking ... which sure may be ok for boneshield but not say something like Barkskin). Those are valid ways of "cheating" that are completely fine for a raid of your level. Once you start trying to push up to say 75th percentile or better (right now 11/12) ... sure then you should start focusing on doing it strictly correct ... but until then its honestly better to cheat and get it mostly right than to aim for top-tier perfection. That's a mistake I believe far too many newbie raiders make ... not respecting the staggering skill and energy gap between where they are and where the top tier raiders are. It's better to get it mostly right than mostly wrong, even if mostly right precludes completely right.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    For instance taking theotherone's example above if you are a DK you can just bind bone-shield directly into your normal defensive ability (dunno shit about DKs, but everyone has a defensive ability of some kind they spam every 6-10 seconds).
    Deathstrike. DKs end up using Deathstrike about ever 6-8 seconds, and due to how bone shield works you at best end up eating bone shield charges if you macro it into DS at best, however BS is also a DKS minor defensive CD, means you won't have it up when you need it to deal with boss nukes. It's better than using once per fight of course, but it's still a pretty awful use of it.
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  6. #46
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    I just wanted to say how useful some of the advice in this thread was for me - especially Tengenstein's on page 1 - in getting my first kill of Horridon tonight. That kind of rigorous insight can be really helpful in improving one's play. (For me, it made me focus more on aligning my shotr's to the triple punctures, for example.)

    On the active vs passive issue, I often have Earthenware's predliction for the passive ones for simplifying the gameplay. It's the reason I don't talent power infusion on my disc priest alt - I'd rather not have to think about when to use it and instead go for the passive talent that gives increased power on low health targets, as I know I will always get some usage out of that talent.

    But with some things - perhaps active mitigation tanking especially - having the variety of active abilities to use is part of the nature of the beast. When i first started playing a blood DK alt, I was struck by how many small CDs I had. I set up weakauras for about 9, there may be more. Now with my palatank main in MoP, it's not far off (shotr, dp, HA, AD, GoAK, LoH, trinkets). Chaining your CDs is often an important part of tanking (Horridon's enrage being a prime illustration) - I think it's expected that you use your CDs often and typically you get more benefit by spreading their coverage. It becomes rather like triage - applying the right strength CD to the right severity of situation. I do tend to macro trinkets into CDs though. They are not powerful enough on their own to really justify the thought process of deciding to use them independently and I find macroing them makes them less likely to be neglected.

  7. #47
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    And thus another shining example of warriors schooling pallies on how to tank! :P
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  8. #48
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    Block is for the weak.

  9. #49
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    Hi, I'm the Raid Leader and disc priest healer for this raid team, and I'd like to thank everyone who's given such considered and useful feedback. Apologies in advance for the wall of text below.

    We are a casual raid team by most definitions. Our raiders must meet ilvl requirements and be gemmed etc. but beyond that I tend to bring people who are fun to raid with rather than recruiting specific classes and/or trialing people. We usually only have 9 or 10 people who want to raid and are geared enough, so choosing some and benching others is very rarely an option.
    We're a social guild who raid, rather than existing to raid. Until MoP, that all worked fine and we cleared Cata raids ok, even clearing hc modes (after nerfs, admittedly). Not so much now, though. We've struggled on every boss whose name ends with "-on" in T14 and T15. 71 wipes on Horridon, and counting. So any help will be gratefully accepted.

    I'll try the suggestion to have each druid putting lifebloom on one of the tanks throughout the fight and, if Earthenware doesn't mind, I'll direct the rest of our raiders here to read your advice.

    I've seen lots of conflicting advice about Horridon, but here's the tactics we've settled on. I'd welcome comments and suggestions:

    One each door:
    Tank horridon next to the door, facing the wall.
    Interrupt dinomancer and burn him down to 50%. Once he's dropped the orb, leave him till the other adds are down.

    Door 1: Kill Wastewalkers asap, single-target. Cleaving where possible. (Same on the following doors too)
    Door 2: Assign people to interrupt venom priests. Single target them down in order, then venomous effusions.
    Door 3: Single target Frozen Warlords.
    Door 4: Single target Bears then Shamans. (We've not reached door 4 often enough to test this).

    We started by just AoEing everything, interrupting as necessary, but have found single target more effective.

    As to the individuals involved, I've only just switched to disc a few weeks ago, after 4 years of Holy/Shadow, so I'm still finding my feet.
    Numpteeumkii isn't on our regular team and only came along to help out, but I'm sure he'd welcome the feedback too.
    Pauer, the other druid healer, doesn't speak much English. And yes, that makes an already difficult fight slightly harder.

    Thanks for reading this far
    Last edited by Oliasgrey; 04-20-2013 at 04:37 AM. Reason: formatting

  10. #50
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    For reference, here's my armory page:
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...iasgrey/simple

    And WorldOfLogs link to another night of wipes on Horridon:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/zwmg68pvm46f8jqs/

    And I was 100% compliant with the suggestions of MrRobot but, when I realised I wasn't dipping below 50% mana, decided to switch some spirit for int/crit.
    Last edited by Oliasgrey; 04-20-2013 at 04:33 AM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliasgrey View Post
    Interrupt dinomancer and burn him down to 50%. Once he's dropped the orb, leave him till the other adds are down.

    Door 1: Kill Wastewalkers asap, single-target. Cleaving where possible. (Same on the following doors too)
    Door 2: Assign people to interrupt venom priests. Single target them down in order, then venomous effusions.
    Door 3: Single target Frozen Warlords.
    Door 4: Single target Bears then Shamans. (We've not reached door 4 often enough to test this).
    Door 1: we found it easier to single down the basilisks, its lot easier for people to move out of sand traps if they're not stunned.
    Door 3: we have melee focus on the Warlords, ranged taking care of the the Risen so to minimise diseases
    Door 4: Shaman then Bears.

    As for Horridon placement, it doesn't really matter as long as as he's side on to the raid and the tank isn't out of healing range.

    Looking at those logs its just more of the same of the previous logs
    • Try 1: Eathernware, Oliasgrey, and Senryos stood in double swipe
    • Try 2: Lost Pauer to a Venombolt Volley, later lost Fookemi because he didn't keep shuffle up
    • Try 3:Lost Puffinbird and Koizumi to standing stuff, lost a tank because he stood in Double swipe
    • Try 4:Lost Besottedmarr, still not getting a ShotR up for every triple puncture, he's also not expertise capped which is a mandatory thing for pallies. Also seems to be trying to help tanks adds and horridon, that's not a great idea
    • Try 5: Lost Besottedmarr to standing in stuff, and later again to having Horridon and the adds.
    • Try 6 Lost Pauer to standing in shit, then lost Fookemi because he didn't keep shuffle up
    • Try 7 lost Besottedmarr to melee hits and standing in stuff, this is a weird death and i have trouble qualifying it; he could have just been unlucky and got a streak of hits to the face, but it's possible he tuned his back on the pack of mobs
    so yeah same as before, people need to stop standing in stuff, tanks need to learn how to play. And on that subject Tanks need to be hit and expertise hardcapped (unless its a DK, or maybe a bear). I know Mr. Robot prefers to undershoot the caps, and their is a solid mathematical reason for this when applying it to DPS, but for tanks things are little different because our secondary stats are relatively close together in value and its far more important that we can reliably counter boss mechanics than be slightly more innately survivable. No one cares if one tank takes slightly less damage overall, or is slightly more spiky if they occasionally just die because they couldn't use their Active Mitigations to counter boss mechanics. Pally and Monk tanks need to be hit and expertise hard capped, not to maximise HP/Chi generation, but to stabilise it. Once they have that, its just a case of the Monk never letting Shuffle drop off whilst something is meleeing him, and the pally tank making sure he has ShotR up for at least every heavy hit.

    Getting people to move out of things is hard. My own raid can be pretty bad at it. people focusing on killing stuff can be pretty Oblivious to their feet. GTFO is a brilliant addon for letting you know when you're in the bad. I really do recommend that everyone in your raid gets it. it sets off audible warning when you're standing in shit. as for moving out the shit, Try to make sure everyone isn't keyboard turning. It is a sub optimal way to turn and will slow down your getting out the shit.

    Have you considered 2 healing? Yeah sounds crazy. Here's the meat of the argument for 2 healing this fight, You're dying to standing in shit with 3 healers, you're going to die just as much to standing in shit with 2 healers, but the fight should be shorter, the adds should die faster, meaning less shit on the floor, and hopefully less dispels needed, and arguably the dps can concentrate more on their foot work. Look at the healing done on the logs and the over healing, and i'm not criticizing that there is overhealing, you're not ooming so over healing is fine, its good, it means that their is healing in potentia for when shit happens, however its not enough for people to stand in shit (that would require 5 healing given your logs), and it could mean you could get away with 2 healing aswell, Which could be a shock to the system for the DPS, they may end up realising just how important moving out of stuff is, and it may take them sometime to adapt. Or it could go horribly wrong. To me, it looks like the 3 healing is unnecessary, and is simply their to compensate bad habits.

    This is a log of our last Horrdon kill, we usual 2 heal but due to RL issues, we were missing 2dps and our main healer so we had to bring 3 people who had never been to ToT other than as LFR. Don't be put off by Disco priests HPS at the end, remeber that due to the stacking damage buff on Horrdon means that Atonement becomes increasingly powerful due the damage modifyer on horridon after the first door.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  12. #52
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    Thanks, I use GTFO, as does Earth. I've mentioned it to the team a few times, but I'll insist now that they all get it.We did try 2-healing it one night but the attempts were hilariously short, probably because of people standing in stuff and not getting healed to cover it up, as you say. We'll give it another go this sunday though. As for the stonegazers on door 1, I can only remember 1 occasion where someone was stunned and the sand got them. Our sand-standing is entirely due to us derping I'm afraid, but again, we'll give your suggestion a try.

  13. #53
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    It's more for the disruption they cause. They have ~700k and it shouldn't take live for a more than a few seconds and completely removes that mechanic as a consideration (srsly if the the dps swap to them they don't all get a chance to land something before it dies). Having to dispel the stun of anyone eats into dispells better reserved for the wastewalkers Blazing sunlight (and thers always the chance that you'll accidentally dispel the stun than the DoT if the stun lands just before your dispel does), If a tank gets stunned thye are going to have have a spike event (tanks can't dodge parry or block whlist stunned) even if they don't need to move out the sand and it also means that any new add spawns will go for the healers or someone else, meaning the add tank needs to pick those up, which moves the mob group, which complicates things for the melee, and if a DPS gets it well they just can't DPS so things live longer. Addiotionally there is the possibilty that Horridon will charge a stunned person, so unlike usually where they'd run out and position the double swipe after the charge away from the raid and step out of the swipe themselves, they're screwed, they will get hit, and so does everyone else who was too slow to move because jimmy stunlocked couldn't move. now they don't only have to think about what they need to do, but what ever other person in the raid is doing, whether they're stunned or not, and if there's a dispel or not free to free them, everytime Horrdon charges someone.

    Simpler to just kill the basilisk.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #54
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    True. We'll give it a go and let you know how it went.

  15. #55
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    Okay, this is going to sound really stupid, but I'll throw it out there. Based on what Teng saw in the logs, on your next try don't go into the fight expecting to down the boss, take some pulls with a view to surviving to enrage. It seems your raid's issue is taking a lot of avoidable damage. Have your raid focus on surviving the mechanics. Of course, dps and kill what you have to kill, but people need to focus on the mechanics; on raid awareness. We did this when we were having issues on Iron Quon, it was pull after pull of people learning mechanics; they become second nature. You all are more than geared for this fight, it really seems to be an execution thing.

  16. #56
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    Woo! We downed him: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h...?s=3915&e=4574

    It took a few attempts, and we suffered a bit from some of the same faults, but everyone had GTFO and it certainly helped. It was easy to spot the people who didn't have it before as they were complaining all night about the awful noise

    We 2-healed it, and had 2 pugs with us (Zalki and Vexeer), neither of whom had downed the boss before.

    Thanks for all your help, everyone who took the time to make suggestions and look through our logs etc.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliasgrey View Post
    It was easy to spot the people who didn't spot they were standing in shit before as they were complaining all night about the awful noise
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  18. #58
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    Yay! Congrats!!!
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  19. #59
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    Congratulations, and remember to apply the stuff you have learned here to your progress on the Loot Council

    Lots of things where you have to not stand in bad stuff, switch targets etc, however it isn't a very hard fight if you can execute those few mechanics.

  20. #60
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    Gratz

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