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Thread: PST - Episode 122

  1. #1

    PST - Episode 122



    This week:
    0:17 - Should there be more guild-oriented content in WoW?
    5:26 - What if world bosses put up barriers to lock people inside after they were pulled?
    9:49 - Will we ever see another hero class?
    13:41 - Why is Stampede okay in arenas but Army of the Dead is not?
    17:45 - Is there any value to Justice Points anymore?
    22:45 - Should we be able to queue for multiple LFR wings at once?
    25:39 - How do you feel about current tank mechanics?
    31:30 - Do you prefer how Valor gear is treated in MoP, or in previous expansions?
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  2. #2
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    Taunt swapping versus pressing a button to deal with death ray; it boils down to pressing a button at the right time, we all remember the first week where taunting the wrong dog or hesitating caused a raid wiping overload, and its considerably rarer that there's some mechanic where you're punished for not having timed your active mitigations (I can think of 3 off the top of my head, Sha, Tortos, Ra-Den), but both mechanics aren't really very fun. I feel Tanks need more "movement" mechanics like Will or Heigan or Shannox.

    Or Marrowgar, I think Marrowgar could be a really interesting set of mechanics to tank again, between the constant frontal Cold Flames (I know that wasn't really intended) and the meteoring Bone Slice. you could have them both hit really weakly on LFR and on heroic have the cold flames timings be randomized in addition to the ramped up damage. Avoiding Horridon's double swipe is fun, but hardly challenging, i want there there to be a mechanic so that its done either to the left of his centre line or right of his centre line and/or that he rotates to focus the tank after each swipe dodge one, dodge the next, don't put his arse to the raid.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  3. #3
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    While most of the Throne of Thunder fights have a taunt swap for a debuff, tanks often have other stuff to do as well. Jin'rock has a bit of positioning (though it's simple), Horridon has a bunch of non-trivial add pickups, Council has interrupts, Twin Consorts has the add you have to kill quickly, and Lei Shen has the conduit management and the need to run away after being taunted off.

    If you're going to have two tanks, either they need two different things to tank (like Tortos) or they need to take turns. "Taunt swap for a debuff" is pretty much the only way to require tanks to take turns on a single target.

  4. #4
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    Stampede

    The reason hunters got stampede in arenas is because at the end of last season beast master was the worst .. in terms of even as a fully geared hunter you could not drop a tanky player ... with arcane shot and kill command being on a cd .. its my personal favorite when they do use stampede because they are no longer immune once they pop it .. and you are immediately alerted to its use .. its like a pally popping his bubble .. after its over they are easier to deal with .. hunters def needed a buff where as Dk do not need it .. they can mitigate way more damage .. if you play frost in 2s .. vrs hunter comps .. blood presence and a healing ability along with using :LoS - can easily avoid a hunter burst from being fatal .. a definite plan for burst avoidance with any comps in the first 15 seconds can negate the early use of OP burst agaisnt any class. at present stampede doesnt even help if the hunter popped it on someone else and youve already closed the gap on them .. when they die it fades

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    If you're going to have two tanks, either they need two different things to tank (like Tortos) or they need to take turns. "Taunt swap for a debuff" is pretty much the only way to require tanks to take turns on a single target.
    That's just a boring and unimaginative excuse to make for blizzard. Honestly if all they have is a taunt swap then make it one tank (Durumu and Qon should be 1 tank fights and possibly Primordius). This is the most boring tanking tier since ICC, honestly, and it may even be more boring than that (though it's hard to forgive Blood Queen). Obviously they know how to make tanking interesting (last tier was amazing) so I really don't know why they pitched such a terrible softball this tier. It's kind of pathetic.
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  6. #6
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    Taunt swap based on a debuff dubstep.
    Arms DPS main spec // Prot warrior tank off-spec

  7. #7
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    In regards to queing for LFR...wasn't able to embed it so did copy and paste:

    @Ghostcrawler I try to do all the LFR instances every week... any reason why I can't queue for all of them at once? (similar to BGs)

    @jeffbreker Hoping to fix that in 5.3.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    Obviously they know how to make tanking interesting (last tier was amazing) so I really don't know why they pitched such a terrible softball this tier. It's kind of pathetic.
    Was it really that amazing last tier?

    Stone Guards: multiple things to tank, with additional coordinated taunts, but still it was a multi-target fight (one of the marco's categories).
    Feng: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Gara'jal: even worse than a taunt swap based on a debuff, you were simply just forced to take turns every so often.
    Spirit Kings: single tank
    Elegon: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Will: multiple targets to tank.
    Zor'lok: single tank
    Tayak: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Garalon: worse than gara'jal since tanks really just had to stand in front of him.
    Wind Lord: multiple targets to tank, or could be single tanked.
    Amber-Shaper: forced tank swaps (similar to garajal) in p1, followed by multiple target in p2, followed by no job for 2nd tank in p3
    Empress: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Protectors: taunt swap based on a debuff (while Kaolan is alive) and multiple targets to tank.
    Tsulong: taunt swap based on a debuff.
    Lie Shi: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Sha: gara'jal all over again with the periodic forced swaps.


    The only real difference between this tier and last tier is that last tier had more multi-target fights. But what marco said still remains true: If you're going to have 2 tanks then there either needs to be something for each of them to tank/do or you need to make them take turns. If you don't have either of them then it is a single tank fight because the 2nd tank will just stand there doing nothing but dps.

  9. #9
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    Stone guards was complicated
    Feng we had extra action buttons
    Elegon. had something else to do during the taunt swap
    Will. had a dance mechanic with extra action buttons and timed mitigatiosn all tied together.

    HoF and ToES where pretty poo.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pancake View Post
    Was it really that amazing last tier?

    Stone Guards: multiple things to tank, with additional coordinated taunts, but still it was a multi-target fight (one of the marco's categories).
    There is not a single fight this tier anywhere near as complicated for the tanks as stoneguard (the first fight of last tier). That speaks volumes towards my point, yes it WAS amazing last tier and this tier is in fact absolutely miserably boring for tanks. Not bloodqueen boring, but still largely uninteresting.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Pancake View Post
    Feng: taunt swap based on a debuff
    With other responsibilities that required precision and timing very similar to what was asked for above. It was the first time in a long time that a tank could wipe a raid if they didn't hit their "button" at a very specific time.

    Gara'jal: even worse than a taunt swap based on a debuff, you were simply just forced to take turns every so often.
    Except the tank also had to kill an add and move away from totems which makes this fight approximately on par with the most complicated tanking responsibilities in ToT (Twins).

    Spirit Kings: single tank
    Single tank who did have to precisely dance the entire raid around walls of death (specially on heroic). There's nothing like this in ToT as tank movement/positioning is necessary but not critical for the majority of the fights.

    Elegon: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Taunt swap, plus add management (and positioning/timing requirement). True this fight wasn't particularly difficult for tanks compared to the rest but the only fight in ToT that comes close to having a position requirement for adds is Tortos which doesn't even come close to the very specific way you had to kill elegon's adds.

    Will: multiple targets to tank.
    Actually the tanks only handled the bosses but they still had to master a dance that's dramatically more complex than anything in ToT. Sure once you learned it, it got easy but I remember our raid wiping plenty of times in September while the tanks learned to dance. Nothing this tier is close.

    Zor'lok: single tank
    Yeap, basically just dodge the Attenuations and win. Finally an easy fight for tanks.

    Tayak: taunt swap based on a debuff
    WITH specific raid positioning requirements. Again nothing in ToT is so demanding on positioning ... even Qon (which would seem to be) is basically just hide in the corner and ignore most of the mechanics.

    Garalon: worse than gara'jal since tanks really just had to stand in front of him.
    Agreed, this is a dumb fight for tanks and really shouldn't have had any. I for one tanked the entire time in feral spec.

    Wind Lord: multiple targets to tank, or could be single tanked.
    Yeah this was largely tank and spank.

    Amber-Shaper: forced tank swaps (similar to garajal) in p1, followed by multiple target in p2, followed by no job for 2nd tank in p3
    The tanks had a bit more responsibility for "driving" here in that you couldn't beat the fight with a bad tank "driver" but certainly could make due if one or two of your DPS or healers were baddies at it.

    Empress: taunt swap based on a debuff
    The add management here was a bit less trivial, specially given the specific positioning for the debuffs and breath weapons. Simpler than MSV, but still more complex than anything in ToT.

    Protectors: taunt swap based on a debuff (while Kaolan is alive) and multiple targets to tank.
    Simple fight, no doubt, but even still the tanks at least had something to do that was meaningful/skillful (position puddles)

    Tsulong: taunt swap based on a debuff.
    Except for the day phase when there was plenty of helpful things to do (I'd usually pop HoTW and heal). Easy fight though, agreed.

    Lie Shi: taunt swap based on a debuff
    Pretty much.

    Sha: gara'jal all over again with the periodic forced swaps.
    Except you actually were rewarded for actively-mitigating properly and the role you played in the pagodas was something completely different.

    Last tier had a few duds, no doubt, but given that the most complicated tanking fight we have this tier (Horridon? Twins? Lei shen?) are all at best middle of the pack compared to last tier its safe to say the difficulty (for tanks) has dropped dramatically. I was happy to MT last tier for progression, and this tier I am VERY happy to be DPS because the tanks are falling asleep.
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  11. #11
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    What about using Justice points for Elder Charms and Lesser Charms. This could be another way in which justice farming can actually help your gear in ways that might be better than just having to convert to honor. I think they option to purchase both the older tier Greater Charms, and the new tier quest items (Lessers) makes dailies completely optional while giving you something to do with justice points.

  12. #12
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    If you're going to count the dance on Will of the Emperors, which melee also have to do, then you ought to count the Durumu maze and other mechanics which apply to everyone. (Sure, it's a bigger deal if tanks fail the dance than melee, but it's also a bigger deal if tanks die on Durumu than DPS.)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    If you're going to count the dance on Will of the Emperors, which melee also have to do, then you ought to count the Durumu maze and other mechanics which apply to everyone. (Sure, it's a bigger deal if tanks fail the dance than melee, but it's also a bigger deal if tanks die on Durumu than DPS.)
    This is a totally fair point and indeed we wiped plenty of times on Durumu while everyone "learned to dance". That said it's pretty clearcut this tier's tanking difficulty is a dramatic step down and I honestly don't quite know why. I was very happy with MSV last tier as a MT (indeed less impressed with the other two but they were really just average not so low). This tier its like the encounter designers didn't think about tanks at all and I find that frustrating because it makes it very hard to take any pride in being a "good" tank vs just being a guy with a taunt.
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  14. #14
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    You say tank mechanics are "boring" or whatever this tier, but in most cases the tanks have to avoid all the abilities DPS have to. Not to mention that on heroic, on most fights at least, you need to work hard with your active mitigation to actually survive and provide your raid with the DPS needed.

    I mean, we could oversimplify the things DPS need to do in this tier by saying: You basically nuke your targets while avoiding fire. Let's have a boss by boss comparison. As a note, I am only referring to heroic mode, cause the few normal modes I kill every week we just out gear and zerg.
    • Jin Rohk: Tanks have to do all the avoiding in the intermission phase together with the DPS, DPS/healers have to go out of the group to get dispelled/leave the crap that follows them. Other than that, just nuke for everyone
    • Horridon: Tanks have arguably the most interesting/challenging job, since you need to be on your toes while tanking all the adds that spawn all over the place and avoid the stuff on the ground that spawns from the adds you are tanking. Also, in the burn phase the boss hits really really hard and one mistake in your active mitigation kills you. For DPS the fight basically sums up as: Stand in one place, nuke the living shit out of the adds while doing some interrupts, then burn the boss while stacked up.
    • Council: Tanks do have a simpler job here since they are not switching to the non-empowered add and don't have to deal with the frostbite at all, but you have got to keep a flawless rotation of interrupts for the sand bolt. However, melees here have basically the same job, only they are not also taking a shit ton of damage they have to mitigate.
    • Tortos: Very straightforward tank and spank fight for everyone, tanks generally don't really touch the turtles, but they do have to tend to the adds, while avoiding everything else the DPS/healers have to. Also, it's harder for the tanks to keep their shield up that exists on heroic only, since they are actually taking a lot of damage in the process, DPS simply has to avoid stuff on the ground.
    • Megaera: Ok, this is a real tank and spank for the tanks, all mechanics are ignored and you never have to tank swap. You are, however taking a MASSIVE beating towards the later stages of the fight and you have to use your active mitigation very wisely while maximizing DPS.
    • Ji-Kun: Very very simple fight for everyone, tanks have got just as much as DPS/healers have though (fly to platforms to tank extra add, don't fall off the platform for down draft). They don't have to soak the DPS buff that the DPSers do, but instead they have got to take care for some pretty serious tank damage, if not mitigated correctly by using active mitigation.
    • Durumu: Assuming you single tank, yes the tank ignores many mechanics here, including the light spectrum phase and the life drain soaking rotation. Still gotta avoid the maze and that knockback, but overall, yes, tank and spank for you as a tank.
    • Primordius: Tanks have by far the greatest responsibility here. You have to make sure you are kiting the boss in a pattern that allows the blood adds to stack up nicely for the DPS to AoE and provide the raid with enough mutations, while taking care of the extra add that cannot get on the boss or the entire raid gets one shot. For the rest of the raid, this fight is simply: Don't stack on top of each other, get in the green circle to soak damage, nuke and heal.
    • Dark Animus: The entire first phase relies on the tank to go around soaking all the anima from the little golems as fast as possible. The faster you can run around to soak everything the easier the fight becomes. Also, the damage from the Massive golems stacks up to ridiculous amounts, not to mention that the anima font ability must be avoided to perfection, and tanks have the hardest time with it because of the aoe slam effects/how the boss sorta bends over and hides your entire character before hitting you. It's really not more complex for the DPSers/healers, they simply have to also avoid stuff on the ground and position themselves properly for the swapping ability.
    • Iron Qon: Tank(s) still have to avoid all the abilities the boss throws at you and you don't really ignore any mechanics there.
    • Twin Consorts: This is a really straightforward tank and spank fight for everyone. Tanks have a bit of an added job there by having to kite the flame boss in phase 1 around the room to reveal the (heroic-only) adds and also to position the flame boss correctly at the meteors. Nothing difficult, but the DPS having to spread and not stack is not a difficult mechanic to deal with either.
    • Lei Shen: I've only killed this on normal, but again, all the abilities like bouncing balls, the one that you have to stack on top of the big guy or everyone gets stunned, etc, are also supposed to be dealt with by the tanks, too. And there is the little extra decapitate ability for which you gotta run away.
    TL;DR version: In most cases the tanks have to work as hard as the DPS/healers have in bossfights and deal with mechanics in (mostly) the same way. I don't see how a boss fight needs to have something really "extra" for the tanks to do in order for it to be interesting for them. So far, having tanked and killed 11/13 HC, I will say that this tier has been one of the most challenging and fun for me to tank. As long as the boss mechanics are interesting in general and the bosses do some serious damage, I don't see how a gimmick mechanic should be implemented to make it "interesting" for the tanks.
    Last edited by Valaras; 04-18-2013 at 08:04 PM.

  15. #15
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    I feel the best way to make JP relevant to pve other than to convert it to honor is to 1. make JP gear equivalent to what you are getting from heroics, that way even if you aren't getting drops you need to raise your ilvl, you can still progress to the LFR average. And 2. make pvp item's ilvl not count to your overall ilvl when queuing for LFRs. This way you could still farm pve gear by doing pvp or the other way around, but it makes JP useful for the initial portion of gearing in pve.

  16. #16
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    In regard to Justice Points, I just wish they added crafting mats like they had in Cataclysm. While it's not a great use of points, at least it's something to dump extra points into. Right now the main problem is the only real thing to do dump extra points into is Honor.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    In regard to Justice Points, I just wish they added crafting mats like they had in Cataclysm. While it's not a great use of points, at least it's something to dump extra points into. Right now the main problem is the only real thing to do dump extra points into is Honor.
    New heirlooms.

    However you cannot get that many JP to buy something with them, farming honor is so much faster than farming JP, not because the rate exchange, just the time invested is a lot worse with dungeons. JP are just in a bad spot from every possible angle right now.

  18. #18
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    I feel that turning JP into honor is not viable as a tank. All the honor gear has melee stats and no defensive ones. Does anything think it is viable for a Prot War to go this route? I only ask because I just came back into the game and am about to hit 90 very soon and want to raid ASAP.

  19. #19
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    Head, Cloak, Ring and battlemater Trinket are all fairly decently itemised, Hit, expertise and mastery
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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