+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 32 of 32

Thread: PST - Episode 121

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,476
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...32:85063:85077

    Not quite half the itemization. PVP stats aren't considered as itemization for the ilvl budget. The mian problem is that is hard to get bits of an equivalent Ilvl; the top tier PVP gear is only 512, almost a whole tier behind the normal raid gear.
    That's why it's lower ilevel though, the REAL comparison isn't the ilevel it's the equivalent, which would be this:
    http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...31:85332:85333
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I agreed with everything that you said except for this. PvP gear is not "perfectly fine" especially with how important secondary stats are in PvE now and now PvP gear is itemized. If you have no_other_option, then sure I guess take a piece of PvP gear but that needs to be replaced as soon as possible. You can skate through heroic 5 mans and LFR with PvP gear, but I'd hardly call it "perfectly fine" in a PvE environment. If you wear full PvP gear literally half of the itemization is completely worthless in a PvE environment and it's gonna show.
    I just ran some simulations:
    full ilvl 476 pvp gear (pve weapons and trinkets): 81041 dps
    476 pve gear only: 82042 dps
    best combination of 476 pvp and pve gear: 82522 dps

    so again, pvp gear is perfectly fine for pve

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,476
    Now run that again with the REAL gear you'd be getting (mix of LFR gear which only once instance was 476, the rest was 483 and 489/496 valor gear) vs. the season equivalent PvP gear (still 476).

    Or even go with the 463 PvE gear vs. 358 PvP gear.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22
    wat..

    Thats like saying my current gear with 520 average ilvl isnt fine for pve because theres ilvl 541 gear available in the game.

    Ofc gear with higher ilvl is (in most cases) better.

    What im trying to say is that 476PvP gear is just as good for PVE as 476PVE gear

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,476
    my point is that the "equivalent" gear for PvP and PvE is not the same as "equal item level" because the PvP gear has its PvP stats taken out of its item level, so while it may have enough stats to be considered 489, it's really only 476 PvP item level. So while you're getting 476 PvP gear, the "equivalent" PvE gear that you would be getting instead is 489, which is clearly better for PvE. This is the entire reason why current level PvP gear is lower than PvE gear.

    It was really just a sneaky way for blizzard to trick people into thinking that PvP gear wasn't as bad as PvE gear. "Well ya, it's lower item level but look at the stats!" "ya... but it's itemized like a 522 piece of gear, just most of the stats are wasted, and the 'equivalent effort' is 552, but we're only getting 512 gear".

    Same story, they just tricked people.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    How to get more people to tank and heal - I know, lets create harder content requiring pre-made groups that only 5% of players are interested in!
    Exactly my thoughts. However if you think about giving the chance to the healer/tank that have his first steps between guildies maybe more people try it. I have been thinking that in order to help those kind of people and even promote more guild interactions (so those mini guilds with 3 people disappear over time) you could add +VP or Charms if you queue to LFR/LFD/Scenario with guildies and in the case of LFD and LFR even more if there is a tank or healer, lets say: +5 VP or 3 Lesser Charms if you bring a guildie, double if it is a tank or healer, same bonus for him. So he maybe could have some relief from the social pressure of the role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    TBH it is about time they just bit the bullet and removed separate tank and heal gear entirely. For the vast overwhelming majority of players it no longer makes sense. These days it only makes sense in the niche Normal/HC raiding end of the spectrum.
    This. I know that pure DPS will QQ about it, but it seems to be the best solution. For one side you ask a healer and tanks to double gear, but you don't provide the means. I will do it because I like to heal in raids, but for the guy that may like dps and heal/tank or isn't sure about trying the healer/tank role you are just putting more barriers to try it.

    About how the new loot is going to work, I don't know, but in my case I don't want to try to tank right now because I don't have the gear and experience however if I can overgear Tier 14 LFR before getting in I may try some dungeons to give it a try, as it is right now my paladin is ret whenever I have time for another alt.

    0:17 - How can we get more people to tank/heal?
    Right now I cannot say that the gameplay from tanks have any problems (they are the best in terms of mechanics and balance in my opinion atm, granted maybe because dps and healer balance is non-existent) I think is the gearing process and the social pressure that makes the people that is insecure about it not try it or give up fast.

    6:37 - Could we ever see faction-specific classes again?
    Not for wow this in done, but maybe for another game a way to do this is include some of the unique aspects of a class in multiple classes, so in terms of the faction the end result is balance but each individual class provides the illusion of choice.

    23:13 - What new professions would you like to see?
    The problem is like stated by other posts, Blizzard haven't stepped up the professions gameplay, it is uninteresting, it may be interesting to make money from them, find old recipes to play the AH or crazy stuff like that, but the professions by themselves may be the worst part of the game right now.

    41:23 - Are casual players forced to do too much to enjoy playing?
    Amazing answer that is how it is. However I have something to say about gear not being important for casuals. IF they are trying the harder content they can achieve, lets say right now Tier 15, of course is skill what is going to make them not kill almost anything but the gear will help them to overcome their deficiencies more than it helps to the more skilled players also it is the easiest thing to do.
    DPS is Gear * Skill * RNG, for these players the Skill almost constant and the RNG is out of their control, so to achieve something that they didn't achieve last week the gear is the variable that they need to move.
    If you are in a very casual guild trying to kill bosses every bit of piece matter a lot, that said, that is not a reason to go a do all the dailies, 9 LFR runs 4 world bosses get 100k for the boots in the AH.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    my point is that the "equivalent" gear for PvP and PvE is not the same as "equal item level" because the PvP gear has its PvP stats taken out of its item level, so while it may have enough stats to be considered 489, it's really only 476 PvP item level. So while you're getting 476 PvP gear, the "equivalent" PvE gear that you would be getting instead is 489, which is clearly better for PvE. This is the entire reason why current level PvP gear is lower than PvE gear.

    It was really just a sneaky way for blizzard to trick people into thinking that PvP gear wasn't as bad as PvE gear. "Well ya, it's lower item level but look at the stats!" "ya... but it's itemized like a 522 piece of gear, just most of the stats are wasted, and the 'equivalent effort' is 552, but we're only getting 512 gear".

    Same story, they just tricked people.
    I don't think that was the blizzard intent, I'm lazy to search for it but there is a blue post that use pieces of gear as example of that. The point IS Item Level, is exactly how Lore said, if the item says 483, it is 483 minus bonus (IIRC shoulders and gloves have +Primary stat socket bonus) and if the guy didn't gem for PVE. I don't think there is a trick in that.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    22
    Blizzard couldnt be more obvious that P-V-P-POWEEER! and PvP Resillience are stats only beneficial in PvP...
    Theyre are not trying to trick anyone, its not their fault that some players cant figure out something so obvious!

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,476
    Resil used to be included in the item value, and each season the PvP and PvE equivalents were the same item level, but OBVIOUSLY the PvP gear was worse. Now the same equivalent gear is DIFFERENT item level, PvP being lower than the equivalent PvE gear. So the PvP gear is still worse for PvE, which is my point.

    Maybe our definition is what "perfectly fine" means. If a raider that likes to PvP happens to have some PvP gear that is better than anything he's managed to get in PvE so far, then fine, whatever. But I do disagree that someone who wants to raid might think it's "perfectly acceptable" to spend all his time getting only PvP gear and not getting his better valor gear and still wanting to raid with my team.
    [Today 09:38 AM] Reev: The older I get, the more I think those Greek philosophers were just annoying hipsters.
    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    4
    Lore, Enhance shamans favored strength but agility was also nice because you needed those windfurys to crit. Also, i wanted to mention the tanking aspect but wanted to keep it short as you prefer. I remember doing Ony 40 and pulling aggro in phase 3 with a 3x windyfury proc (9 hits) and earth shock and tossing on my 1h and shield with rockbiter and tanking for a good 25 seconds with our raid leader screaming on vent for healers to stop healing me so the tank could get aggro back. Classic WoW enhance was amazing. Even if the spec didn't keep up with the numbers that dual wield does I would still play it provided it was viable. I actually play a DW DK atm because I don't like soul reaper in the 2h rotation and at 509 ilvl i hold my own although i expect that to change as i grow closer to 522. Anyways, all i can do is sit back and hope that someday a dev will get bored and decide to bring back 2h enhance. Until then, DK it is. Thanks for taking my question.

    Cheers,
    Bulldevil

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    8

    re: dw vs 2H classes

    The thing with dw frost vs 2H frost for dks is that they both support different types of fights. 2H is best for single target damage (insane obliterates) and dw is great for AoE add fights (howling blast spam). Even with dw currently being simmed lower, I'll still switch to my 1h's for a fight like say... Horridon, and do more overall damage and dps than with a 2H. Whereas for Jin'rokh, I switch to my 2H (even being gemmed and reforged for dw). So my answer to that? Keep both sets in your bag and switch out as needed. It adds extra gameplay too, as they both have different rotations. Now, that being said, maybe having to know two different rotations isn't for everyone. But I sure love having that extra depth and variation in the class. Also Lore, when you mentioned that maybe one should be pvp and one should be pve because they are hard to balance for pve... well in that case, why bother trying to balance dps specs at all? Like lets go back to having frost mages only be able to pvp, and make only one spec of everything else every viable for raiding. Good idea? yeah I don't really think so... Just because things are hard to balance and there are always the "you should be this spec" issues doesn't mean that it isn't a valuble goal to have... Apologies for the wall of text... this editor is refusing to let me put line breaks in the post. I tried to do it with HTML tags, but that didn't work either...

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    4
    The fact that you can go 2h when reforged and gemmed for DW (huge stat differences) and still put out what I would assume is respectable numbers is further proof that DW is dropping too low on single target. Obviously its good for AoE because of HB being part of your regular rotation but 2h is just pulling way too far ahead. I'm on the side of players that think HB shouldn't be part of the regular rotation which would result in blizzard being able to buff it some to help 2h do better AoE and buff something else to help DW edge back into the single target game since they are bottom of the barrel for single target at 522+ ilvl. Personally, I am first or second on every fight for my guild as DW but we are only 9 bosses in on normal and i'm at a 511 ilvl (one of the higher in the guild). I'll probably be grabbing a 2h soon to go primarily 2h frost until DW makes a comeback for single target.

    On a side note, if they could make 2h enhance be close to DW enhance like they have done for Unholy/2h frost, I would go back to shaman in a heartbeat.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts