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Thread: I need advice on gems for my Guardian Tank

  1. #1
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    I need advice on gems for my Guardian Tank

    I was at Noxxic, looking for the best gems to help my tank. He is just starting heroics and I think they are harder than they used to be. Could be many other factor (DPS ability and healing) but my greatest problem seems to be holding threat. I have few problems mitigating damage, but keeping the mobs on me seems to be, even though I hit growl Thrash and Swipe whenever they lite up. I also make sure to spam the tab key to get a shot at everything in melee range. I just respec'ed to vortex, even though they recommend slam, because the slam only hits one target. the one target usually isn't the problem, it's holding the adds.

    Any suggestions for my problem just stated are welcome.

    I always use the charge, as it separates me from my group faster and allows me to generate threat before another player hits it.

    Now for my basic question. The gems recommended have 60% pvp points and the rest agility. I don't pvp at all. I really need more threat (more damage would be nice too). Is this a proper gem priority for my situation?

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    please disregard the pvp question I must have hit pvp by mistake as I went back and found no pvp mentioned in the gem recommendations under PVE. I would still like any advice on the other things I mentioned

  3. #3
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    An armoury Link would be helpful.

    Are you hit and Expertise capped, 7.5% and 15% respectively? You shouldn't need to Growl on CD, Growl does nothing if you already have aggro on the target, aside from as a ranged pick up or ninja pull recovery you shouldn't need to use Growl at all in a dungeon.

    On single target you want to mostly think of your "Rotation" as being 4 ability cycles;


    [Mangle > Lacerate > X > Lacerate]


    X is is Thrash or Faerie Fire; If Thrash is already up or on CD use FF, If FF is on CD use thrash, If Both are on CD, use anything to fill that GCD, (bearhug, swipe, etc). Now all of these abilities have a 25% chance to reset Mangle's CD. If that happens you restart the cycle again with mangle.

    AoE is a bit more chaotic, but mainly you want to get as many Mangles (tab around), Thrashes and swipes off, filling empty GCDs with lacerate/FF
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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    Ok that rotation sounds better. I grouped Thrash and Swipe, as both are aoe damage. I was using growl as a CD filler to hopefully "grab back" parts of the mobs headed away. Today, just for kicks, I replaced the Mighty Bash with the Vortex. I already tried the disorienting roar and it didnt seem to help at all. The mighty bash is only on one target and I dont need to stun it. If I want interrupt I use head bash. The vortex says it will keep the mob on me and literally grab others trying to leave. I will see how it works as a filler. The FF I am on your page although based on your specific rotation I will need to rearrange my action bar for implementing the strikes in that order. Thanks for the advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starcruncher View Post
    Ok that rotation sounds better. I grouped Thrash and Swipe, as both are aoe damage. I was using growl as a CD filler to hopefully "grab back" parts of the mobs headed away. Today, just for kicks, I replaced the Mighty Bash with the Vortex. I already tried the disorienting roar and it didnt seem to help at all. The mighty bash is only on one target and I dont need to stun it. If I want interrupt I use head bash. The vortex says it will keep the mob on me and literally grab others trying to leave. I will see how it works as a filler. The FF I am on your page although based on your specific rotation I will need to rearrange my action bar for implementing the strikes in that order. Thanks for the advice.

    You shouldn't ever really need to use talents as fillers they're utilities. And using Growl like that is bad. YOu need to get to 7.5% hit and 15% Expertise.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  7. #7
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    Hiya Starcruncher!

    1. Reforge some of that hit into expertise to be around 7.5% in both (15% expertise is not going to be reachable with your gear level). You're being parried and dodged right now, which doesn't generate threat.
    2. Bring up your crit to at least 20%. More crits == higher damage == higher threat.
    3. Get rid of that Strength gem for an Agi/Crit gem. Now. Change your Strength enchant on your gloves to Expertise. Strength is pretty useless for us.
    4. Put at least the minor Inscription and LW agi/crit enchants on your shoulders and pants, respectively. Don't use the Stam/Dodge one as it does nothing for threat.
    5. What Teng said. Though I would suggest tab-Lacerate if Mangle isn't up, since Lacerate dots will keep ticking on the mobs even when you aren't focused on them.
    6. Another trick for threatkeeping is to pop Incarnation and spam Mangle (single) or Thrash (packs) - that'll glue things to you pretty nicely.
    7. Keep running Shado Pan Monastery heroic for the heroic weapon off Master Snowdrift and Mogushan Palace for the weapon off Xin the Weaponmaster, and especially Spirit Kings in LFR/Mogushan Vaults for the Qiang. Weapon damage is a big factor in this.

    8. To answer your original question, I recommend (in order of priority):
    --* Meta: agi / +crit damage
    --* Red: 1) agi/hit or agi/exp if you need to get to the 7.5%/7.5% hit/exp caps and can't do it by reforging/enchants
    ---------2) agi/crit until at least 20% crit in caster
    ---------3) agi (feel free to keep the one you have though).
    --*Yellow: 1) crit/hit or crit/exp to the caps if needed
    -----------2) pure crit
    --*Blue: 1) crit/hit to get to the hit cap if needed
    ---------2) crit/stam
    ---------3) agi/stam

    The Agi/Haste gems you have right now are okay if you're on a budget, but they're not helping your threat generation much, since they're only helping you with an extra white damage melee swing every so often.

    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 03-13-2013 at 11:02 AM.

  8. #8
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    Tielyn, what changes for druids at 7.5% Exp that makes it not worth having past that?
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #9
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    Teng --

    He's got a 462 ilvl right now, and he's just doing heroics (no LFRs showing yet). Even if he went full reforge for expertise, I'm pretty sure he can't reach 15%. Once you get Dodge off the table, you can kinda live with the slight parry chance in favor of upping the amount of crit or haste you have instead.

    Paladins go for 15% expertise because every CS/J they land is generating their HP, so every one landing is vital, but not dependent on whether they crit; bears get their Rage from white swings (frequency based on haste) and Mangles, with bonus points from crits. So putting off (or reforging out of crit and haste) in order to get to 15% expertise is going to hurt more than it helps, I think.

    I'm doing fine with 7.5% hit/expertise (44% crit/7% haste in bear) at the moment, generating 60 Rage every four keypresses almost without fail. From the last WoL parse I have, that's while being parried 4.2% of the time. And definitely no threat problems whatsoever (I tend to yank off of everyone else I tank with rather than the other way around).

    That being said -- I'm more than happy to be wrong if you have numbers that show otherwise in the Spreadsheet of Doom.


    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 03-13-2013 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #10
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    I can understand that. I just don't agree with it. Relaible rage income is better for tank survival than a higher rage income with potentiallly large variability especially given the granularity of rage income.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
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    I put him through Mr. Robot and skewed the weights thereon. Turns out that he -can- get to 15% Expertise, just barely, if he gems and reforges pretty much all for expertise, and he'll wind up with the following stats:

    21% crit, 7% haste in bear, 7.49% dodge (ouchy). I'm playing with trying to do a number crunch of my own with this, and I'm showing that as being worth 51 Rage/6 seconds assuming at least 1 Mangle Proc (2 Mangles landing).

    Going with crit once he hits the soft cap will give him:
    34% crit, 5.8% haste, 10% dodge, which is good for 60 Rage/6 seconds with a 4% parry chance, or 57.6.

    His original question was on generating threat, though, and 14% more crit chance > 4% more hits:
    10,000 damage, 100 hits, 20% crit=10,000x80+20,000x20 = 16,400,000
    10,000 damage, 96 hits, 34% crit=10,000x62+20,000x34= 21,760,000

    That's why I'm saying 'just get the soft cap', rather than waiting until you get to the hard cap.

    Though again, I'm still new to this math thing and I may be off base.

    -T.

  12. #12
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    Thing is Average RPS isn't really what i'm arguing its more the variability in RPS as long as you're below the expertise hard cap there's nothing stopping you from failing to connect and if that happens at some vital point where you need FR or SD to counter a boss mechanic you're randomly gonna fall over sometimes because the boss just got a parry streak. Likewise until you hardcap hit and exp sometimes your threat on the pull just won't exist because the boss got a parry streak and in the mean time some poor bursty fury warrior has taken the boss to the face. Now either of these you may dismiss these as low statistical probability but thier are 2 other things that are make affect this, firstly being hard cap makes your rotation feel SOOOOOO much smoother, its actually eaiser to play, and secondly the only the soft cap of 7.5% doesn't matter, its not significant, statistically you're not going to feel the difference between 7.49% and 7.51% (except for FFF) or if you're attacking from behind the boss, so if you're agument is that Crit>exp Crit will still be better than exp whether you have 0% or 15%, the only thing that will change would be how smooth the rotation feels and whether you can deal with the clunkyness. statistically Expertise is either good to the hard cap or good until your rotation is manageable the only reason 7.5% expertise is special is because at that point FFF will never miss, its not really an inflection point or soft cap.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #13
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    *laughs* Okay, okay, I believe you. There is nothing wrong with 15% expertise and its ability to knock Parry off the table. And I believe you enough that I will reforge to 15% expertise in the near future and do an apples to apples comparison. I've just never needed 15% expertise to hold threat in the past, whereas I've noticed the difference between 4% and 7.5% expertise definitely, and I've yet to find a single bear in the Armory that has 15% expertise (doesn't mean they're any more right). Paladins? Yes. Bears, not a one.

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    yeah its just that no tank has a mechanic that differentiates bewtween if you get dodged or parried, they function identically: you get no rage, you can't crit, and you wasted a gcd/swing and the ability will be put on CD the only difference is that name that appears in the log, its not like its worse to get dodged rather than parried, it just annoys me when people say "get 7.5% exp" theres no rhyme or reason to it unless you're a DPS or its vital your spells connect.

    If you feel comfortable that the statistical probability of being gibbed becuase the boss had an avoidance streak and you'd rather have crit/haste/orgasm rating that's ok, I wouldn't because I hate RNG, Lady Luck tends to piss all over me every chance she gets, so i'm willing to take slightly more damage overall and never ever get globalled.


    EDIT: Its never really been about sustained TPS or DPS the threat buff in FL and vengeance made that trivial, its just having gone since Tier 7 with 0% hit/expertise, I had to be good back then, but it was alwaly looming over me on the pull, or if an add spawned and my initial SS missed it was something the rest of the raid really needed to know, and usually in guild it was fine as I would got TotT or MD, but in dungeons if i wasn't over gearing the DPS it would have been rough and mobs would be going everywhere. I really appreciate not having to worry about that being able to concentrate on my survival.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 03-13-2013 at 05:28 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  15. #15
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    I've been pretty comfy with just soft-capping and focusing on other stuff from there, mostly because I'd been emulating the top guild bear tanks who are doing the same thing. But I do see your point -- if you're going to bother capping hit to drop Miss and soft-cap to drop Dodge, why not just go the whole way and drop Parry so you never fail to connect at all?

    The way of the game for MoP is Active Mitigation, and the more you can keep it up, the less squishy you are, and the difference is I'm pushing in the direction of maximizing my crit Rage income and trusting my RNG versus going for the smoother, guaranteed route. So yeah. I do hear you, which is why I'm willing to give it a whirl. I think at least with my gear level I can probably get to 15% without losing more than 5% crit, so it's worth the experiment time to me get on the same page as you.

    Stay tuned.

    -T.

  16. #16
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    I'm prolly just to hung up people being all "get to the soft cap" when there isn't really a reason for being at that specific amount


    That said unlike warriors equivalent Savage defence is RNG.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #17
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    I just got an email today that there was a reply to this post. I changed a lot of stuff, but not the expertise cap of 15%. I don't want to sacrifice all the damage stats to raise the expertise that high. One thing I did, is reset my action bar so I am spamming tab--thrash-mangle-lacerate-swipe, while moving and clicking the rest of the spells with the mouse. This isnt exactly a rotation, because I hit them so fast that it is imposible to tell what is casting at any given moment, but those 4 spells are hit within a nanosecond after CD is over. I do make sure to hit Trash 1st though. This has improved my holding threat dramatically. The mobs I solo go down in much less time too.

    Thanks for the advice.

    I would be interested in what happens when you regem to 15% expetise Tielyn

  18. #18
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    Glad to hear you fixed your threat problem.

    One bit of advice: Do not Spam. Any button you hit automatically resets your (edited: GCD timer) regardless of what you pressed, and you want to get into the habit of using the right button rather than any button. You want to have a priority of:
    1) Mangle
    2) Thrash (aoe) or Lacerate (single target)
    3) Lacerate (if you hit Thrash@2)
    4) Swipe (aoe) or Refresh FF (single)

    Any time your Mangle comes off cooldown, hit that above all else. That's the only place you'll get Rage from other than the white attacks you have no control over.

    If you get a free Mangle, hit that first. You get free Mangles 25% of the time when you hit Thrash, Lacerate, or FF.

    as far as the 15% expertise question:

    Haven't taken it into a raid yet, but daily questing extensively on the Isle of Thunder is taking some adjustment. Most of the time I have the same 4-buttons-to-60 result, but I've also hit a fair number of clunkers where it takes 6-7 button presses when I don't get any Mangle procs at all and have to rely on my white swings. Overall 72% average Savage Defense uptime, highest 82%, lowest 54%.

    Previously I had:
    7.46% hit, 7.32% expertise, 2.33 swing timer, 44% crit.
    Currently at:
    7.52% hit, 14.68% expertise, 2.33 swing timer, 36% crit.

    Meaning:
    2 hits on average per six seconds (2x10.5=22):
    1 Mangle hit per six seconds guaranteed (no SotF = 5 Rage)
    Total, no crits: 27 Rage
    Assuming ~1 crit out of 3 attacks, add 15 more for 42 Rage.

    Somewhere in there you have to dig up 18 more Rage to get to 60, which can come from:
    -the extra attack you get in some of those 6 second windows (2.33s per swing x3=6.99s) -->10.5
    -a crit on that extra attack (total: 25.5)
    -an extra crit in those base 3 hits --> 15
    -an extra Mangle proc -->5
    -an extra crit on that Mangle proc -->15 (total:20)
    -Enrage

    On the other paw, none of those attacks missed or were parried, but some of the melee hits were glancing blows. :P

    What this means:
    - An extra crit alone (15) won't help.
    - An extra attack (10.5) alone isn't enough.
    - An extra Mangle (5) alone isn't enough.
    - Even an extra attack (10.5) and an extra Mangle (5) isn't enough.
    - An extra attack or Mangle -with- a crit is enough.
    - So are two normal swings (10.5x2= 21). But now we're talking ~2.33 extra seconds with no SD uptime.

    Side note 1:
    Taking Soul of the Forest over Incarnation means that you only have to pick up 13 Rage instead of 18, since that one Mangle that was guaranteed gave you 5 more Mangle, so one extra Crit is enough, as is an extra attack and an extra Mangle (10.5+10).

    Side note 2:
    At 2.33s per swing, the cycle per six seconds is:
    2(swings), 3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3, 2, 3, 2....

    Conclusion: You do need Crit as high as you can push it. More haste means that you can get more 3 swing cycles in there, but 3 swings, 1 Mangles, no crits is still 3x10.5 + 1x5=36.5 base. Assuming 25% crit, that's 51.5. 50% crit is 66.5. So being closer to 50% than 25% is to your benefit.

    I am still going to agree with Tengenstein, though, in that any time I get parried, that takes a bunch of Rage out of the total as well, so he has some merits in the notion of going all the way to 15% expertise. But without taking it into a raid situation, I'm not sure which is better yet, but I bet there's some way to see if 5% miss is greater or less than 8% crit mathematically.

    -Tielyn
    Last edited by Tielyn; 03-25-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  19. #19
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    Define "Connects" as (1 - Hit&Exp_under_cap)

    Start off with Total White Rage (TWR):
    TWR = Connects * (1 + Haste%) * 10.5 Rage / 2.5s + Crit% * (1 + Haste%) * 15 Rage / 2.5s
    TWR = (1 + Haste%) *[ Connects * 4.2 Rage/s + Crit% * 6 Rage/s]
    First part is just from the plain white swings, second part is purely from critting.

    Mangle time between attacks:
    Connects * 25% chance on 3s << Chance a proc occurs on the GCD after Mangle
    (1 - Connects * 25%) * Connects * 25% chance on 4.5s << Chance you didn't proc yet and proc occurs and 2nd GCD
    (1 - Above) = 56.25% chance on 6s << Chance no proc occured/is wasted
    Average CD duration = 6s - (Connects * 25% * (6s - 3s) ) - [(1 - Connects * 25%) * Connects * 25% * (6s - 4.5s) ]
    Avg CD duration = 6s - Connects * .75s - [Connects * 25% - (Connects * 25%)˛ * 1.5s ]
    Avg CD duration = 6s - Connects * .75s - Connects * .375s + Connects˛ * .09375s
    Avg CD duration = 6s - Connects * 1.125s + Connects˛ * .09375s
    Average Mangle Rage is (Connects * 5) per above time frame
    First part is the base 6s, the second part is the sum of the proc gains from either GCD, the last part is the adjustment for a "double proc" that would not occur

    Average Yellow Crit Rage:
    Crit% * 15 Rage /1.5s = Crit% * 10 Rage/s
    Pretty straight-forward

    Total Rage Generation:
    TRG = (1 + Haste%) * Connects * 4.2 Rage/s + Crit% * [(1 + Haste%) * 6 Rage/s + 10 Rage/s] + Connects * 5 Rage / (6s - Connects * 1.125s + Connects˛ * .09375s)
    This is basicly all the stuff from above added together and shortened a bit.
    Fill stuff in, compare, conclude, gear!


    Edit: Tielyn pointed me towards an error I made in my math, fixed now and added small explanations.
    Last edited by Airowird; 03-21-2013 at 06:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  20. #20
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    Thanks for the detailed explaination and excellent advice Tielyn.

    I needed that bit on spamming as I was hlolding threat but dps dropped. Resetting the swing was an insidious move on Blizzards part.

    Not sure I can keep track of all the cooldowns, as it was all I could do to keep moving with the mouse and pop sav asap.
    It's like I need an extra person working the keyboard while i work the mouse.

    heh

    Thanks for all the expert advice and looking forward to your raid results on 15 exp cap.

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