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Thread: No New 5 Mans - Will They be Missed?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buchler View Post
    And I am fairly certain that this does not change the fact that 5 man dungeons are supposed to be the first hurdle, if you just facerolled through the first content ignoring tactics completely I'm pretty sure you had a group of very decent players with you as well, maybe even people that raid heroic content today, but the thing is, 5 man dungeons are not supposed to be heroic content, if the people who are being challenged by heroic content today would find a challenge in 5 man dungeons then 5 man dungeons would suddenly be closed country for a very large part of the population, something Blizzard has worked quite a bit against, with good reason imo.
    I have seen people die to stacking rust. And yes, there are some blatant misses such as Jin'bak where it just does nothing and Peril and strife, where that ultimate power is just derpy.
    But there are other fights that are quite punishing if you have a group of medicore players at ilvl 440ish. Xin in Mogu'shan palace, is a pain to heal. Shado-pan Monastery 1st, 3rd and 4th boss can all be quite troublesome if you ignore mechanics. Armsmaster in Scarlet H. Brother Korloff in SCarlet M. Are these hard for people who play their class at a raid level? No, they are not, but that's not the point of a 5 man dungeon.
    I did put it wrong in my first post when I said they weren't too easy when at the right ilvl. 5 man dungeons are always going to be too easy for people who strive to do hc raid content, but it's tuned for a certain skill level.
    skill level 0? I understand that blizzard has to cater to the lowest common denominator but really 5 mans aren't challenging at all, even for non-hc raiders. It is never a case of I hope we can get through it, its a case of I hope it drops me an upgrade. for it to be challenging, there has to be a very real risk of failure and there really isn't.

    I've heard more people asking for harder 5 mans than i have heard 5 mans are too challenging. also i'm not an HC raider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buchler View Post
    If it's supposed to be super challenging lust can become quite important? There is a reason they gave it to several other classes.
    Yeah, because it was a problem that people where being dropped from groups just to make room for lust they didn't really need. Sure if your just brushing the enrages lust can make a difference but its very rare that it makes or breaks a fight unless you're bleeding edge prgression.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    MoP 5-mans aren't hard at 440 iLvl. They really aren't hard at any item level. Regardless of if you have "heroic raiders" with you.

    This is why MoP got boring so fast for me. It was clearly designed to not offer challenges to overcome, but merely demanded that you spend time.

    5-mans that were beyond trivial and even soloable, LFR that's a complete joke, and dailies...oh, dailies. This certainly isn't your grandpas' WoW.
    You visit a place like tankspot, that's a source of great information on how to play a class, this suggests that you have some insight into the game, I think the vast majority of players does not visit sites like these, and I still argue that there are a ton of mechanics in 5 man dungeons that if ignored causes groups to wipe. I've been in groups that have wiped because the healer went oom from spamming healing surge and only using healing stream totem once (if at all) etc etc.
    I'm not suggesting they are hard, hell, I find them insanely easy as well, but I also recognize that they are not tuned for people who raid, like me.
    And no, this is not your granpa's WoW, it most certainly got harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    skill level 0? I understand that blizzard has to cater to the lowest common denominator but really 5 mans aren't challenging at all, even for non-hc raiders. It is never a case of I hope we can get through it, its a case of I hope it drops me an upgrade. for it to be challenging, there has to be a very real risk of failure and there really isn't.

    I've heard more people asking for harder 5 mans than i have heard 5 mans are too challenging. also i'm not an HC raider.



    Yeah, because it was a problem that people where being dropped from groups just to make room for lust they didn't really need. Sure if your just brushing the enrages lust can make a difference but its very rare that it makes or breaks a fight unless you're bleeding edge prgression.
    You're not a heroic raider, but you wrote an entire guide and generally have excellent insight to the game, far better than even normal raiders have, and certainly far better than I had! Which still counts for something. But I guess it's just a disagreement, I just don't believe that anyone can steamroll through 5man dungeons in 440ish gear.

    And well, with lust, I concede, it's not vital, but it's still a nice buff.

  3. #23
    And no, this is not your granpa's WoW, it most certainly got harder.
    I....what? Harder?

    That doesn't even make sense. Not even as an opinion.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I....what? Harder?

    That doesn't even make sense. Not even as an opinion.
    Well, it is my opinion none the less, I've been playing since Vanilla, raided MC, BWL and some AQ, took a break in most of BC and came back in wotlk and have been raiding since then.
    But I'm curious, when was it the hardest, and why?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buchler View Post
    Well, it is my opinion none the less, I've been playing since Vanilla, raided MC, BWL and some AQ, took a break in most of BC and came back in wotlk and have been raiding since then.
    But I'm curious, when was it the hardest, and why?
    Beginning of Cataclysm and in TBC. Because stuff could actually kill you.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Beginning of Cataclysm and in TBC. Because stuff could actually kill you.
    Oh yeah, if we are talking 5 man dungeons, then for sure, it's definitely not harder now, I agree with that.

  7. #27
    But I'm curious, when was it the hardest, and why?
    As long as you're still talking about 5-mans...pretty much any time when a 5-man heroic was a question if, "Will we clear this?"

    Vanilla to an extent, most of TBC, some early Cata. You could actually reasonably expect to get into a group and struggle or not clear the dungeons at all.

    WotLK was pretty bad about being too faceroll, but I also think that people's memories were colored by everyone still doing the same 5-mans in Tier 9/10 gear.

    MoP on the other hand, the heroics STARTED OUT as faceroll. Some of them are fairly easily soloable in 440 blues, save for a few bosses with mechanics that don't allow for it.

  8. #28
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    Erudax was a fairly harsh in comparison to current LFG. Hall of Reflection also beckons as an example of a challenging LFG.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    As long as you're still talking about 5-mans...pretty much any time when a 5-man heroic was a question if, "Will we clear this?"

    Vanilla to an extent, most of TBC, some early Cata. You could actually reasonably expect to get into a group and struggle or not clear the dungeons at all.

    WotLK was pretty bad about being too faceroll, but I also think that people's memories were colored by everyone still doing the same 5-mans in Tier 9/10 gear.

    MoP on the other hand, the heroics STARTED OUT as faceroll. Some of them are fairly easily soloable in 440 blues, save for a few bosses with mechanics that don't allow for it.
    Yeah, I misunderstood as you started fanning out and included dailies and lfr, so I started looking at the game as a whole.
    But no, I agree that dungeons were far more difficult back then, and I would also argue too hard. Again, they were not supposed to be the pinnacle of difficulty for the game, they were supposed to be the entry level challenges once you reached max level.
    Regarding the whole soloing dungeons in ilvl 440 fairly easy, a quick google search shows one entry of current content soloing dungeons being a ilvl 481 blood dk. If it was fairly easy at ilvl 440 I would suspect there being some more evidence of that? (Even a single piece of evidence) So is there any evidence out there of this or?

  10. #30
    If it was fairly easy at ilvl 440 I would suspect there being some more evidence of that? (Even a single piece of evidence) So is there any evidence out there of this or?
    I personally soloed Stormstout Brewery, most of Jade Temple, and various fragments of other heroics that I really can't remember with my DK in 440-450 gear. I worked on some with my Monk as well, but they just don't have the durability at low gear levels, it seems.

    There are several instances that have bosses that just don't wanna be soloed due to mechanics, so it was hard to clear instances in their entirety. =D

    I remember Mione soloing a challenge mode as well. I didn't manage that before I quit.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I personally soloed Stormstout Brewery, most of Jade Temple, and various fragments of other heroics that I really can't remember with my DK in 440-450 gear. I worked on some with my Monk as well, but they just don't have the durability at low gear levels, it seems.

    There are several instances that have bosses that just don't wanna be soloed due to mechanics, so it was hard to clear instances in their entirety. =D

    I remember Mione soloing a challenge mode as well. I didn't manage that before I quit.
    Doing a challenge mode while ignoring timers makes it somewhat less impressive. this is in fact mostly gimmicky due to Blood DK mechanics being blood DK mechanics.
    And well, ok, you said you solo'd those instances, but there is still no evidence of that. And I think it's pretty unlikely that it can be qualified as easy and then not a single soul out there decided to prove his skill by putting up videos of him soloing dungeons in ilvl 440.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buchler View Post
    On topic, I miss them mostly in the sense that I really dislike LFR and would love to see LFR gone as a gearing stepstone (tuning lfr down to ilvl 476 or some such) but I know that's not gonna happen
    Here here! Not only are LFRs frustrating when you have a really bad group (esp when a new part of an LFR comes out and people can't be bothered to watch a vid or read the Journal), but they are also a time sucker- especially when queing as a DPS. It was nice to be able to get a couple pieces of decent gear for my alts in a much shorter amount of time.

  13. #33
    Doing a challenge mode while ignoring timers makes it somewhat less impressive.
    Considering the gear scaling mechanic and increased difficulty, it's a hell of a lot more impressive than soloing heroic modes. I found it to be pretty hellish when I gave it a try. (And failed)

    And well, ok, you said you solo'd those instances, but there is still no evidence of that. And I think it's pretty unlikely that it can be qualified as easy and then not a single soul out there decided to prove his skill by putting up videos of him soloing dungeons in ilvl 440.
    "No SS, didn't happen."

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Considering the gear scaling mechanic and increased difficulty, it's a hell of a lot more impressive than soloing heroic modes. I found it to be pretty hellish when I gave it a try. (And failed)
    Well, you keep putting out easy there as a term, but soloing an instance is not "easy" when it requires a certain class and on top of that a ton of skill. Blood DKs are just very gimmicky with their insane amounts of selfhealing, kiting abilities and various CDs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    "No SS, didn't happen."
    Well, ehm... yes... There are no videos of any of this, no screenshots even! It's all well and good that you claim to have done it easily, but I'm gonna go with a different approach and say that I'd like some evidence (Didn't even have to be you, I looked for any evidence at all) And all that I could find was DKs soloing things. You just have to find some videos backing up your claim and I'll gladly concede.

  15. #35
    Blood DKs are just very gimmicky with their insane amounts of selfhealing, kiting abilities and various CDs.
    Actually other classes are pretty good at it, too. Warriors in particular have been getting pretty boss at soloing things, from what I hear.

    Well, ehm... yes... There are no videos of any of this, no screenshots even! It's all well and good that you claim to have done it easily, but I'm gonna go with a different approach and say that I'd like some evidence (Didn't even have to be you, I looked for any evidence at all) And all that I could find was DKs soloing things. You just have to find some videos backing up your claim and I'll gladly concede.
    I'm not looking for you to concede, it's pretty irrelevant whether you do or not. I wanted to say something on the topic and did so.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Actually other classes are pretty good at it, too. Warriors in particular have been getting pretty boss at soloing things, from what I hear.
    And I heard they are terrible, yipeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I'm not looking for you to concede, it's pretty irrelevant whether you do or not. I wanted to say something on the topic and did so.
    Then why start commenting on posts, you could've just said: "Dungeons are easy, period." and then have run away jubilant.

  17. #37
    Then why start commenting on posts, you could've just said: "Dungeons are easy, period." and then have run away jubilant.
    Didn't know I'd run into "SS or it didn't happen" crap when I posted. Now I've been made aware.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Didn't know I'd run into "SS or it didn't happen" crap when I posted. Now I've been made aware.
    It is indeed horrible when asked to back up claims with evidence yeah.
    But now you know at least, I like to see some evidence before I just accept things said on the internet as fact, I found that people will claim just about anything in this internet world.

  19. #39
    It is indeed horrible when asked to back up claims with evidence yeah.
    But now you know at least, I like to see some evidence before I just accept things said on the internet as fact, I found that people will claim just about anything in this internet world.
    Yeah, well, I guess I'm just used to yakking with the same bunch of people around here, and they don't usually ask me to Instagram my toilet to prove I had a bowel movement.

    Guess I'm too used to the shoutbox crew and our general familiarity.

  20. #40
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    When he was doing his soloing, I was playing around with it myself...I find it perfectly believable that he solo'd what he said he solo'd.

    I hadn't bothered to fly out and try to solo MoP 5 man heroics myself on my DK, but I don't see any reason why it'd have been any particular challenge either, once you got the general feel for how it works down. DK's have a lot of tools and the fights in Stormstout in particular seem simple enough to deal with as a DK.

    Claiming it's not valid because it's a DK seems...odd, though. As far as I know they ARE a class in the game that can be played...
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