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Thread: No New 5 Mans - Will They be Missed?

  1. #1
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    No New 5 Mans - Will They be Missed?

    So, looking at some of the changes for LFR, it feels more and more like LFR is going to be a permanent replacement for 5 mans, after the initial expansion has launched. By that I mean, 5 mans will be the stepping to stone to LFR/initial raid tier, then LFR will take over the yoeman's work for things like alt gearing.

    If what's being reported on the PTR holds true we're going to be able to choose what spec we want for purposes of loot drops and coin rolls and according to a GC tweet it will be on a per boss basis, not when you que. Right now we have the increased drop rate for LFR and we're seeing 502 ilvl items in failbags in the newest tier (I opened a bag and received plate healing boots ilvl 502); more VP gear for more slots; It does not appear that any new 5 mans are in the offing this x-pac.

    So I guess the issue is, will anyone miss the new 5 mans that come along as an x-pac matures?

  2. #2
    it feels more and more like LFR is going to be a permanent replacement for 5 mans
    The real replacement for 5-mans is dailies.

    It's a shitty trade.

  3. #3
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    5 mans have been dead imo since they decided to stop making them challenging/interesting. Early Cata was the last time I enjoyed 5 mans.
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  4. #4
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    There are the "heroic mode" scenarios, if done right they could be quite lucrative. Not to mention faster to queue for, because they don't "require" a tank or a healer.

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    Good riddance new 5 mans. They always just seemed like an annoying obstacle to me. I was rarely intrigued by them after running them once, but then being almost required to run them every day after that.

    I'll give this for dailies as opposed to 5 mans: at least you don't have to log on EVERY DAY to do them like you used to with 5 mans. 3 times a week is plenty.
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  6. #6
    I'll give this for dailies as opposed to 5 mans: at least you don't have to log on EVERY DAY to do them like you used to with 5 mans. 3 times a week is plenty.
    You had to log on every day for 5-mans? That's news to me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    There are the "heroic mode" scenarios, if done right they could be quite lucrative. Not to mention faster to queue for, because they don't "require" a tank or a healer.
    The healing/tanking/dps roles are a large part of what made the game fun for me though, especially back when tanking was still more about control than it was about survival.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    You had to log on every day for 5-mans? That's news to me.
    The ICC ones you did, because the valor cap was per day and they gave the most valor, gear, quest items, etc.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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    I really really really want true heroic 5 mans that drop LFR gear and take 3-4 hours to complete. I truly miss those days from Vanilla and BC doing the content for good gear. Heroic scenarios are going to do this so perhaps there's hope, but scenarios are far too quick for my tastes.
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    5 mans were an interesting diversion, but I don't know that I'll miss them - if they do go the way of Dodo. I really haven't done any senarios to speak of this x-pac, maybe I'll start. From the ones I've done, it seems they have more of a tie to the overall story than the 5 mans do as the x-pac's story matures. I would venture that senarios are a bit easier to make than dungeons in sense they're more like quests that can hit hard and you dont' have to tune them so much - just a guess on my part.

    We seem to be seeing more world bad guy stuff to do also - more rares, more world bosses, more end quest "bosses" that have some mechanic; Itoka comes to mind.

    Paradigm is shifting it seems.

  11. #11
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    Most frustrating place for me to tank these days are the LFG 5 mans. the only part i'll miss is the ability to just chain run them to cap valour when necassary. Though that mostly for the valour of the ancients buff so my alts valour cap more quickly.
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    Oh I won't miss LFG 5 mans at all, the 5 man content I miss were the ones you couldn't LFG because it either didn't exist or was too hard for it. Honestly MMOs are, to me, all about the hard content done in a coordinated fashion. LFx completely discards the "coordinated" adjective and therefore garbage. I do like the way scenarios are going for storytelling but until they become harder and require a composed group (as opposed to LFx), they're crap to me. I'm sincerely hoping the heroic scenarios are not a part of the LFx queue ... because they'd have to be dumbed down to the point of useless if they were. Again that's what killed 5 mans for me, the fact that they had to appeal to lowest common denominator makes them just so far below any reasonable skill threshold that they become a chain-pull AoE fest. I know some people find that appealing, I just don't.

    I honestly don't feel its a bad precedent to have 5 mans and scenarios follow the raid model. LFx is the dumbed down, easy, no coordination/everyone gets to see the content mode. Then you have a normal mode that requires some moderate coordination and provides moderate gear. Then you have a heroic mode that requires insane skill, coordination, and effort. I believe all three game-styles should have these modes. As far as rewards 5 mans and scenarios should probably be 1 step behind raiding. So if 5 man LFG/scenario gives iLvL 100 gear, then LFx Raids as well as normal scenarios/dungeons should give 110 gear. Then heroic dungeons and scenarios as well as normal raids give 120 gear. Finally heroic raids give 130 gear. I don't see why a model like that couldn't work and couldn't satisfy literally every playstyle with only marginal additional effort from what they've done already (they already make the scenarios and 5 mans, why not expand on their potential content).
    Last edited by feralminded; 03-28-2013 at 09:12 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Turns out, heroic scenarios might actually be hard(er)..


  14. #14
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    Can't be that hard if you don't need a tank or a healer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Can't be that hard if you don't need a tank or a healer.
    You're right, Brawlers Guild was lols?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I really really really want true heroic 5 mans that drop LFR gear and take 3-4 hours to complete. I truly miss those days from Vanilla and BC doing the content for good gear. Heroic scenarios are going to do this so perhaps there's hope, but scenarios are far too quick for my tastes.


    Oh I won't miss LFG 5 mans at all, the 5 man content I miss were the ones you couldn't LFG because it either didn't exist or was too hard for it. Honestly MMOs are, to me, all about the hard content done in a coordinated fashion. LFx completely discards the "coordinated" adjective and therefore garbage. I do like the way scenarios are going for storytelling but until they become harder and require a composed group (as opposed to LFx), they're crap to me. I'm sincerely hoping the heroic scenarios are not a part of the LFx queue ... because they'd have to be dumbed down to the point of useless if they were. Again that's what killed 5 mans for me, the fact that they had to appeal to lowest common denominator makes them just so far below any reasonable skill threshold that they become a chain-pull AoE fest. I know some people find that appealing, I just don't.

    I honestly don't feel its a bad precedent to have 5 mans and scenarios follow the raid model. LFx is the dumbed down, easy, no coordination/everyone gets to see the content mode. Then you have a normal mode that requires some moderate coordination and provides moderate gear. Then you have a heroic mode that requires insane skill, coordination, and effort. I believe all three game-styles should have these modes. As far as rewards 5 mans and scenarios should probably be 1 step behind raiding. So if 5 man LFG/scenario gives iLvL 100 gear, then LFx Raids as well as normal scenarios/dungeons should give 110 gear. Then heroic dungeons and scenarios as well as normal raids give 120 gear. Finally heroic raids give 130 gear. I don't see why a model like that couldn't work and couldn't satisfy literally every playstyle with only marginal additional effort from what they've done already (they already make the scenarios and 5 mans, why not expand on their potential content).
    Whereas I do agree with you on the LFR being too easy, I don't think the dungeons are that troublesome atm, they aren't too hard, but I don't think they are too easy IF (!) you do them at the right gear level, you've got to remember that the dungeons are tuned for 435-460 ilvl, not 480+ as practically everyone is sitting on now. So are dungeons too easy these days? No imo, especially not if you have a full group at ilvl 435. Dungeons are supposed to be the first hurdle you pass.
    You bring up different levels of dungeons, which is a decent proposal, putting heroic dungeons at the same level as normal raids is a big no no, this would simply result in normal raids being completely obsolete for progression and would probably also add some confusion to lockouts, how would they work?
    Now however, there is something I take issue with regarding hc dungeons, should this be standalone dungeons or just tuning up the regular dungeons? I assume it's the first one looking at your first post.
    This proposes several problems, it would be a huge developer time sink catering to a, seemingly, very small demographic (Based purely on anecdotal evidence I am yet to meet a person who has the return of 3-4 hour 5 man dungeons on the top of their wish-list), so there is the purely time based issue.
    Second there is class composition, it's easier to fit in a shaman / mage / Hunter in a 10/25 man raid setting naturally than it is in a 5 man, and forcing every 5 man hc dungeon group to bring a mage / shaman / Hunter for BL/hero would probably also be something that was deemed unfair.
    So realistically speaking there's already 2 major issues, dev time and class balance.

    And let's look back at these long dungeons as they existed in Vanilla (and BC? I remember it more prominent in Vanilla), these dungeons were a lot of Trash, tons of bosses as well yeah, but most of the time was spent on trash. So is the plan to use this template again? Because I believe one thing that Blizzard has learned throughout the raid development is that trash in the copious amounts that we saw them in Vanilla and BC days was probably not the best overall raid design.
    So I'd say that a hc 5 man dungeon, the way you describe it, is a no go.

    On topic, I miss them mostly in the sense that I really dislike LFR and would love to see LFR gone as a gearing stepstone (tuning lfr down to ilvl 476 or some such) but I know that's not gonna happen

  17. #17
    You're right, Brawlers Guild was lols?
    There's a difference between "challenging content" and "Hey, here's a big pure numbers check for you to do alone."

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buchler View Post
    but I don't think they are too easy IF (!) you do them at the right gear level, you've got to remember that the dungeons are tuned for 435-460 ilvl, not 480+ as practically everyone is sitting on now. So are dungeons too easy these days? No imo, especially not if you have a full group at ilvl 435. Dungeons are supposed to be the first hurdle you pass.
    Dungeons are far too easy even when geared appropriately, especially so when you have a 15% buff for LFG. and its not even about the ilevel, there are so few mechanics that require you to pay attention to. I was in scholomance day 1 when LFG required a 440 ilvl and was able to kill rattlegore without resetting his stacks of rusted. I think we went to 17 stacks. Vizier Jin'bak, have DPS ever swapped to the sap globules, do people know what those things do? Peril and strife, are people even concerenced about ultimate power? LFG is trivialized to being target 3-6 target dummies with scenery.

    Hell i've healed through most of the 5 man content in agility gear.

    And lust really isn't that important.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Dungeons are far too easy even when geared appropriately, especially so when you have a 15% buff for LFG. and its not even about the ilevel, there are so few mechanics that require you to pay attention to. I was in scholomance day 1 when LFG required a 440 ilvl and was able to kill rattlegore without resetting his stacks of rusted. I think we went to 17 stacks. Vizier Jin'bak, have DPS ever swapped to the sap globules, do people know what those things do? Peril and strife, are people even concerenced about ultimate power? LFG is trivialized to being target 3-6 target dummies with scenery.

    Hell i've healed through most of the 5 man content in agility gear.

    And lust really isn't that important.
    And I am fairly certain that this does not change the fact that 5 man dungeons are supposed to be the first hurdle, if you just facerolled through the first content ignoring tactics completely I'm pretty sure you had a group of very decent players with you as well, maybe even people that raid heroic content today, but the thing is, 5 man dungeons are not supposed to be heroic content, if the people who are being challenged by heroic content today would find a challenge in 5 man dungeons then 5 man dungeons would suddenly be closed country for a very large part of the population, something Blizzard has worked quite a bit against, with good reason imo.
    I have seen people die to stacking rust. And yes, there are some blatant misses such as Jin'bak where it just does nothing and Peril and strife, where that ultimate power is just derpy.
    But there are other fights that are quite punishing if you have a group of medicore players at ilvl 440ish. Xin in Mogu'shan palace, is a pain to heal. Shado-pan Monastery 1st, 3rd and 4th boss can all be quite troublesome if you ignore mechanics. Armsmaster in Scarlet H. Brother Korloff in SCarlet M. Are these hard for people who play their class at a raid level? No, they are not, but that's not the point of a 5 man dungeon.
    I did put it wrong in my first post when I said they weren't too easy when at the right ilvl. 5 man dungeons are always going to be too easy for people who strive to do hc raid content, but it's tuned for a certain skill level.

    If it's supposed to be super challenging lust can become quite important? There is a reason they gave it to several other classes.

  20. #20
    But there are other fights that are quite punishing if you have a group of medicore players at ilvl 440ish. Xin in Mogu'shan palace, is a pain to heal. Shado-pan Monastery 1st, 3rd and 4th boss can all be quite troublesome if you ignore mechanics. Armsmaster in Scarlet H. Brother Korloff in SCarlet M. Are these hard for people who play their class at a raid level? No, they are not, but that's not the point of a 5 man dungeon.
    I did put it wrong in my first post when I said they weren't too easy when at the right ilvl. 5 man dungeons are always going to be too easy for people who strive to do hc raid content, but it's tuned for a certain skill level.
    MoP 5-mans aren't hard at 440 iLvl. They really aren't hard at any item level. Regardless of if you have "heroic raiders" with you.

    This is why MoP got boring so fast for me. It was clearly designed to not offer challenges to overcome, but merely demanded that you spend time.

    5-mans that were beyond trivial and even soloable, LFR that's a complete joke, and dailies...oh, dailies. This certainly isn't your grandpas' WoW.
    Last edited by Bovinity; 03-30-2013 at 09:41 AM.

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