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Thread: How do you tell someone that they are not as good as they think they are?

  1. #1
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    How do you tell someone that they are not as good as they think they are?

    I don't wanna give you a huge story here so I'll try to keep this brief. Someone who is very close and dear to me, plays WoW too. While I lead the progression team of my guild (around world 35-ish on 10 man at the moment, and no this isn't for me to brag this is to explain my point) she raids in our guild's second team and they are still struggling to clear normal Throne of Thunder.

    She claimed that she is good enough to be in a top 50 team worldwide. Now I'm not going to get into details of why she is not, but all I will say is that she started playing WoW in Cataclysm, and her only raiding experience in "heroic" content is Dragon Soul after like 20% nerf and about 6-7 heroics in T14. She is still a fairly new player and while constantly improving, she is just not a world class player yet. She just falls into the trap many newcomers to "serious" raiding fall, that after they make a big leap forward in their game, they think that's all there is to it.

    The problem occured when I tried to tell her -mind you, as politely as I could- that, while she is improving, she still has a long way to go to reach the level of my raiding team. I also told her that, for example, while I am obviously a good player, I still am far away from being as good as Paragon are and that there's nothing wrong with not being the absolute best yet, to avoid sounding arrogant.

    But the result of this was that she got hurt and -stubborn as she is- refused to listen to me and just called me elitist.


    So, how do you tell someone you care about that they are not as good as they think they are without sounding arrogant or hurting their feelings?

  2. #2
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    You can't.

    They think they're entitled to spot and you are going to deny them that. best i can advise is that you go over their logs and underline what they're doing wrong or what is putting you off having them in your team, but really try to make it not sound like an ultimatum or an offer; The last thing you want is to get them thinking "if i achieve x uptime/DPS/HPS then they have to let me in. the point is to make them realise what you expect from your raiders and how they don't measure up to it yet, and that you are required to be elitist, that it's your responsibility as the RL to make sure everyone there is cutting the mustard, if you bring someone who can't you failed in your duty to the those of the raid who can cut the mustard, becuase if you don't at best all it will breed is resentment, and at worst the team will haemorrhage members and neither of those are viable choices.

    Quite frankly anyone using terms like "elitist" perjoratively really needs to get over their sense of entitlement.
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  3. #3
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    Well thanks for the reply, but I'm not talking about a member of my raiding team, or anyone who wants to be in there but I denied. Those are easy to handle and I don't hesitate to break any hearts there . I'm talking about someone who does not yet understand the game well enough, but thinks she is a top caliber player. And the reason I want her to realise that she has a long way to go is to protect her from applying to some top team and get utterly rejected and hurt.

    Not sure if you actually read the thread or just the title :P.
    Last edited by Valaras; 03-25-2013 at 07:57 PM.

  4. #4
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    Bah it's 3 am here, my reading comprehensions gone to shit. something about reaching the level of your raiding team.

    I'm not sure it's really your call to make. If she applies and gets rejected she'll be hurt. if she applies and gets in whoopee, if she doesn't apply becuase you tell her she not good enough she'll be hurt, and prolly feel betrayed and resentful. So the only way to stop her getting hurt is to make sure she gets in when she applies. Offer to help her prepare beforehand, if she doesn't want it thats ok, if she gets rejected console her. Try make sure she gets some feedback about why she was rejected so she can improve.

    Let her make up her own mind, be supportive of her choices, and wipe away any tears as a result.
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  5. #5
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    Maybe she just needs to be in a more competitive environment before she realizes what she has to learn. If she is near the top of the damage meters in the second group she might not even realize that she could be doing better. I've seen so many players come from a raid where they were top DPS, be near the bottom of the pile when they joined my raid, and then got better quite rapidly.

  6. #6
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    She has to make a decision as to why she's playing the game; if she's playing and her goal is to join a top 50 raiding guild, then she should expect to be butt hurt...often. Frankly, guilds that have a laser like focus on progression and the race to the top tend not to sugar coat things. I would venture that to the semi-hardcore raider and below, those guilds are a vipers nest of elitist douche bags who measure their worth and the worth of others by how adpet they are at a computer game - not saying it's good or bad, just the attitiude that comes across. If she doesn't have the stones and thick skin to put up with that, then she shouldn't go there. But often the child has to touch the stove to find out it's hot; listening to advice isn't good enough.

    The fact that she didn't handle gentle constructive evaluation well does not bode well.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    The fact that she didn't handle gentle constructive evaluation well does not bode well.
    This, all this. It is my experience that the people who eventually bubble to the top of any truly competitive field, whether it be video games or sports, have a very strong capacity to properly self evaluate. Even if they never admit it to anyone else and even if they exude a more stereotypical egotism, the truth remains internally they have to be able to self evaluate to even get that far. No one at the top gets there on talent alone, the truth is there's plenty of people with similar potential but it's attitude, time/effort, and will that takes raw talent and turns it into world-class results. This is what I've tried to tell people who point to a couple of logs and say "look I ranked higher than this dude from this top 50 guild, I should be in a top 50 guild". Usually those people are just trying to inflate their ego, most of them understand they DON'T have what it takes, if not talent then time and effort and drive, and that's why they're in my guild .
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  8. #8
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    Imo, let her apply to a top guild. Let her realize how much she has to go. To quote a movie, "the only way to get better at chess is to play someone better than you." She may feel like she's a top raider right now b/c she's one of the better players in a mediocre team, but as I learned, and I'm sure you've learned, just because you're "top heals" or "top dps" in one guild doesn't mean that you're even gonna be top 3 in a different guild.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    just because you're "top heals" or "top dps" in one guild doesn't mean that you're even gonna be top 3 in a different guild.
    Oh, so true.

  10. #10
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    Or maybe just let her tag along one evening with your first group.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Or maybe just let her tag along one evening with your first group.
    Well, thing is, I really cannot waste a progression evening especially now that we're starting with durumu heroic... And any of the T14 content we can 9 man anyway so she could just stay there ignore most tactics and do decent DPS :P

  12. #12
    How do you tell someone that they are not as good as they think they are?
    /w badplayer Hey, you're not as good as you think you are.

  13. #13
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    Seems the main thing she needs to do is figure out why she is in a "B" team at all, when they are primarily used to poach players from when "A" team players are not available and could just as easily move on and do their own thing at their own level of play.

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  14. #14
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    Its okay, just focus on what she can be better at. Don't tell her not to die to fire. Tell her to come to raids soaking wet! lol Pun Intended... but you get the point. Focus on ways she can positively improve.

  15. #15
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    we once got 4 DPS warrior apps on a recruiting push, and we ended up recruiting the one with the least gear and no heroic experience because the proof was in the results they could control: his gear was impeccable (gearing, gemming, reforging, upgrading) and his logs didn't just show him being spot-on with his offensive CDs, but also consistent improvement due to gear over the weeks he'd recorded on WOL.

    his damage taken was low, his defensive CD usage was correct, and you could pick a mechanic in the logs to study and see how he did it right.

    it was 0 trouble to explain this to the other 3 warriors with heroic gear & XP why he got the nod and they didn't. it was a 100% pure fair shake.


    gear and experience are only signs; results matter.
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  16. #16
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    This answer is pretty clear cut.


    You don't. What's the point?

    She's either allowed on the raid group or she is not. That is the only obligation of information you have to her.

    Your desire and seeming want to tell her she's not that good screams of two things: Seeking to prove your own superiority, feeling the need to prove your position to her, for what reason though? To what end?

    It honestly has no point. She will either figure out where she stands or she won't and nothing -you- say will change that. In fact, anything you say can only serve to make things worse.

    She wants to apply to a top 50 Guild? Let her. They'll handle her denial or acceptance and it's not your job to warn her before hand. And if she is accepted? What then? Have you just made yourself look naive by telling her she wasn't good enough?

    Point and case: You have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by engaging in this sort of conversation with a Guild Member. It's an unneeded confrontation, should you help guide and shape her to improve? Certainly. But you in your post seem hard set on creating some sort of confrontation with this player to inform them that they're not as good as they hope they are and they want to be. That serves nothing but breeding animosity, the sort of seed planted that can and will spread through out a Guild.

    Here's how you tell her she's not as good as she thinks she is: When push comes to shove you will pick a better suited, more talented player to fulfill the role she is applying for in Raid Group A. Boom, denial, rejection and likely if she is the way you state she is she'll have some sort of emotional response/meltdown blame favoritism etc or she'll simply accept it and realize she needs to improve.

    Nothing you say or do will change how she reacts to the realities of her world and it's not your job to help her navigate her own character flaws, all you can serve to do is drag yourself down in doing so.

    Going out of your way to inform this player that they're "Not good enough" which is what you're basically saying comes off as nothing but crass and rude for absolutely no benefit to you. Why make yourself seem that way for her benefit?

  17. #17
    If he were dealing with a robot, maybe that'd be true. Seeing as how I'm fairly sure she's human and this is someone he knows and cares about, she'll probably want an explanation or reasons or whatever and he'll want to try to give her some feedback instead of just /ignore.

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