ok, sorry about that last bit, but have you read the horridon threads that are out there?
i didn't see a thread specifically for 490'ish geared raid groups to discuss strategies on this fight, and i think a lot of people are in that situation.
i don't want to debate the tuning or the 25 vs. 10 thing. i also don't want to discuss whether people struggling on this fight are "bad" or not. from what i've read, the fight gets a lot easier once you're in 500+ gear, but that doesn't help right now.
the first few pulls, it seemed impossible. after that, we started to make progress and i think it's going to be doable, but i'm looking for some tips. plus it helps me to write it out.
- resto shaman (me), resto druid (both ~492)
- prot pally, blood DK
- monk dps (healing offspec, but also has been the highest dps on the dangerous adds)
- hunter x 2 (both with blue weapons and of the opinion T14 hunter weapons didn't exist)
- destro lock
first door, alligator comes out and dies immediately. when the first wastewalker drops in, all dps single targets him. if each dps on average does ~80k on each big add, then it takes roughly 17-18 seconds to kill one. that also means each add will get 2 casts of blazing sunlight off. our priority is dino halfway > WW > croc > the rest. so we've got a fairly stable phase 1 that looks something like this:
t=20 WW#1 enters
t=20 3 sunlights
t=20 dispel 2, 1 left
t=28 dispel 1, 0 left (1 dispel available for tank stun)
t=35 3 sunlights
t=35 dispel 2, 1 left
t=38 WW#1 dies
t=40 WW#2 & 3 enter
t=40 6 new sunlights + 1 old sunlight
t=43 call for spriest mass dispel
t=43 dispel any left over
t=55 6 new sunlights
t=55 dispel 2, 4 left
t=57 WW#2 dies
t=60 dino enters
t=63 dispel 2, 2 left
t=65 dino drops orb (this temporarily removes 1 dps from the fight to channel)
t=70 3 new sunlights + 2 old
t=70 mass dispel
t=71 dispel any left over
t=80 WW#3 dies
this is all ok now, and we've got lots of mana. (side note: how is this phase handled with no priest??)
tank swap while moving to door 2. venom priest is what matters here: 6.3M hp, effusion 840k. priority is dino halfway > VP > effusion > the rest.
t=20 VP#1 enters, monk in charge of interrupts
t=33 VP#1 dies, SEEMS like no effusion is summoned
t=40 VP#2 & 3 enter, i target #3 for interrupts, dps all swap to #2
t=53 VP#2 dies, definitely seem to have some effusions by now because poison is stacking
t=60 dino enters
t=65 dino drops orb (again, temporarily removes 1 dps from the fight to channel)
t=75 VP#3 dies, LOTS of effusions up now
at this point, we clean up whatever adds are up and tank swap again. the druid is OOM from cleansing poison (i can't help with that) and i'm pretty low from spam healing the bleeds. we HAVE to figure this phase out using less mana.
questions about the second door:
- how many stacks of poison are worth dispelling?
- effusions or priests first? or put hunters on effusions?
- many times, VP #2 & 3 come out with #1 not quite dead. is this a must-fix item?
- who else can cleanse poison?
we've barely seen the third door, but i would love some tips about what to expect. we were going to try and slow/kite the adds to limit diseases and hero on the first warlord. note that neither myself nor the tree can cure disease.
some things that we learned that helped us:
- resto druid gets an extra poison dispel with symbiosis on paladin
- balance druid gets mass dispel from priest
- crocodile stun is interruptable - i try to always have one targeted during the first door
- most small adds are stunnable - capacitor totem + totem projection is very nice
- when you get targeted for charge, you have quite a bit of time to move and relocate the charge away from the raid
- all dps has to forget about aoe and focus on killing the dangerous stuff
i'm encouraged by posts that say it's downhill after door #3.
i'm really hoping for gear-appropriate suggestions. it's not helpful to post how easy the fight was for your 25m raid, or your heroic-farming 10m raid. but if you must, i've made it easy for you; just copy/paste here:
gg, easy fight is easy. my guild did it in 3 pulls, so it must be easy.
i shall pretend i have about the same gear as you, because i feel i would have downed it just as easily without the 20 extra item levels i got from farming heroics.
i shall say these things because it makes me feel strong! and it is important to me that you know that i am good and you are bad.
Last edited by marklar; 03-07-2013 at 06:18 PM.
ok, sorry about that last bit, but have you read the horridon threads that are out there?
Just a couple tips and answers to what questions you asked. Have your dps save their personal cds for the 2nd door. Have them all blow their cds and potions when venom priests 2 and 3 jump down. Have all dps not assigned to interupts switch to effusions asap. If you can afford to lose the dps, have the monk go heals because they have a cd that will remove all stacks of poison from everyone on a 3 minute cooldown (i believe it's 3 minutes at least, could be wrong) This will cut down on the damage in that part immensly. If you can't afford to lose their dps then have them at least use detox on cooldown as well as having your prot pally dispel on cd. To make it easier on your pally, make it so he is tanking the boss on door 2 so he doesn't have to dispel and pick up adds at the same time. There is still a while until the last phase and even with the interupts done perfectly the bleeds can still do quite a bit of raid damage, so don't be afraid to pop some of your raid defensives like spirit shell or tranquility on this phase. Once your raid gets used to this door 2 shouldn't be too difficult.
Door 3 can be a little tricky also as the frozen warlords have a very high amount of health. Have dps prioritize the small guys when there is only 1 warlord out. When warlords 2 and 3 jump in, pop hero and nuke everything like crazy. Have your tank ready to pop a cooldown with the 2 warlords if your healers start getting behind. With hero door 3 isn't bad as the hard part is simply eating through the stupid amount of health they have. Once you get past door 4 it's fairly easy as long as your curse dispeler is quick and dps aren't gibbing themselves when they're cursed.
Edit for 3rd door after rereading post and realizing you're a shaman, not a priest. Since neither healer can dispel disease, you're going to have to rely heavily on having your monk and pally do their dispel on cd every single time for door 2 and 3. They can both remove poison and disease in any spec. Also glyph for healing stream totem's resistance, it will help a lot when the stacks start building up.
Last edited by captanmurdoc; 03-07-2013 at 10:59 PM.
we tried 3 healing, but our monk is always in the top 2 on WW/VP damage done and we got overwhelmed with adds quickly.
you're not kidding about the bleeds; i looked at our logs and one pull was about 10M bleed damage. i think i need to put more emphasis on stuns there.
i will definitely try having people switch and burn the effusions. looking at logs, we usually had zero poison damage from the priests, but 2M or so from the effusions. i will also call for potions/cooldowns on the 2nd priest; that sounds like a good place to use them.
good to know about monk/pally; i will get on them to cleanse more. i CAN do curses, so i guarantee they'll come off quick
HST glyph is one i never take out.
thanks for the tips.
What we did is to use all offensive cooldowns during 2nd door.Also we used lots of focus interrupts.First we nuked first priest, tanks interrupts it. Nuked it fast enough so that it didn't even have the chance to get one effusion out.Then grab 2nd and 3rd priest. Nuke second while having someone assigned to interrupt him. Have someone using focus interrupts on 3rd (it's important to not divide dps).Both 2nd and 3rd cast effusions. Dinomancer comes down, 2nd dies. Tank interrupts dinomancer. Then person assigned to 2nd focus interrupts an effusion.Burn dinomancer to 50% then switch to third priest. If you did everything right you wont have a single poison nova till like 35-seconds into the second door opening. We also had a prot warrior who would aoe interrupt the effusions at the very end, I gues you could use solar beam in the same fashion.Also ranged stacking in that door helps a lot to pick the adds and heal the raid. Also dont be shy to use BL in that part, door 3 is tough but its all about healing the raids and dispel diseases (monk, pally and druid with symbiosis on pally need to use it on cd).Focus on single target dps and passive aoe.This comes from an average 495 ilvl group. We used 3 healers. Also for tips Hand of Protection removes triple puncture on the tank if he is taking lots of damage.Also we found DK blood tanks not doing so great in door 3 cause of mortal strike debuff.GL
"People who thinks they know everything are a great annoyance for us who do" - Isaac Asimov
While my group did outgear the encounter quite a bit I strongly disagree with popping Bloodlust on the 2nd door since it is laughably easy if you keep interrupting. It should be best if you try to burn down 2 venompriest relatively quick, while having the Paladin tank Horridon and the third venompriest. Using his Interrupt, Avenger's Shield and Fist of Justice he should be able to keep him from casting almost completely, so that all other stuns and interrupts are available for the other two venompriests, so that they don't manage to cast either. So all you get are the volleys from the efusions which should be manageable. If you really get too many effusions you can either try to use more aoe to just kill them along the way or try to use more stuns. Also as mentioned your prot paladin should help dispelling.
This way you can stack up and use Bloodlust on the third door if needed or just use it for the War God.
Last edited by sthon; 03-09-2013 at 07:34 AM.
We killed it with 3healers+5dps 2melee, 3ranged with average 500+ ilvl. You should have more dps if you bring 6 dps although hunters with a blue weapon worries me a little. The shadowpriest is nice for some extra dispells when needed.
Ideally you want to burn the first venomancer/wastewalker/frozen warlord before the dinomancer shows up, we used BL on the third door since the warlord has more hp and we had trouble avoiding the frozen orbs.
1. interrupt instead of dispell
2. effusions they only have 800k hp and also cast poison volley
3. VP1 should be dying when the 2nd and 3rd spawn so you can interrupt them we had the 2 melee interrupt if it takes too long dps is lacking or not switching to the right target.
4. No idea just dps and interrupt more.
I'm not sure what the rest of you are seeing, but the Wastewalkers, Venom Priests, and Frozen Warlords are all immune to stuns, so I would advise against using your strong single stuns against them (stuns are still good for helping to control the smaller adds).
A few things to thing about on any given raid.
Clemency is huge on this fight for double BoP during Door 2
Symbiosis targets are also huge here as you can get extra Sunbeams for Venom Priests or Dispels
Warriors have Disrupting Shout as well.
Controlling the Venom Priests via silences has been paramount for my group since we picked up some people pre-5.2 who were undergeared. We're still working on the fight but going from interrupt->Sunbeam->Sunbeam locks it down so much. We're going to need to swap out our tank rotation because that MS was killing us on the Door 3 adds and I didn't realize it until now. We're also popping Lust on phase 3 since that seems the most intense from what I've read.
I don't think I've seen a fight before where you could adapt so heavily to based on talents/class skills.
"If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson
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went in again last night armed with these suggestions (and a small HP reduction of the trolls).
door 2 is really smooth now; using cooldowns on the 2nd troll was a great suggestion and i had ranged burning effusions when they spawned. we hardly have to dispel at all. i also remember why dwarves are so great: stoneform!
door 3 actually gave us very little trouble. we pop heroism when the 2nd warlord drops and slow/stun the smaller adds to try and limit diseases. not much to really say here.
door 4 is still messy. BEARS, oh my! we only have one melee, but we had to take him off bear dps completely because of cleave deaths. it just seems like there's adds everywhere - usually a bear on the horridon tank, shaman jump off and attack other targets, etc.
we saw the war god a few times, although only once on a "clean" attempt. he ended up destroying the tank at about 30%. any tips for him? do you guys tank swap to rotate cooldowns? no have no strong external tank cooldowns to use.
the two main issues i was seeing were door 4 adds and losing our pally tank. it felt like he was getting global'd by horridon.
logs from last night if it helps. i feel like we'll down this on our next raid night, but any extra tips are appreciated.
How we did it:
* Cleanse spam on door 1.
* Use Control/cooldowns on door 2.
* Lust & Army of the Dead x2 so that we'ld get adds debuffing the ghouls instead of players on door 3.
* On door 4 we gave the tank a couple of seconds to pick up the bears and then started to AoE. Hardest part there is when the tank had to pick up the shamans, but if you're mass AoE'ing, they will generally speaking all pop at once, easy to pick them up then.
* We had all cooldowns, including Ancestral Guidance (Shaman DPS -> heals CD) on the War God, killed first time we got past door 3.
If your Paladin is dying, make sure he has Shield up for all Triple-Puncture hits, they can hurt once you got some stacks.
I experienced a physical hit from the war god of about 500k when we did the encounter on patch day (immediately after taunt, and followed by a shout to complete the instant-death). Have we missed a raid-mechanic that GREATLY increases his dmg in a certain situation?
He died after that, and the monk tank was kept alive through 70-ish percentage of boss hp, so we got the kill and all, but... wtf.
yes, the war god continually ramps up his damage done until he's dead. you want to have your dps use cooldowns on him for sure.
and we finally got this down last night!! thanks all for the help. the raid comp is the same as what i listed in the OP. here's some additional notes on what helped us out, in case others are still struggling:
- army on the third door timed about when the second wave of small adds comes out. i also used earth elemental here. anything to keep diseases off the raid.
- we tried heroism in different places; our kill was with hero on the third door when the 2nd warlord dropped.
- the pally tank got good at timing ShotR for triple puncture, which helped immensely.
- the second and third wave it's crucial to have your add tanks be very quick about picking up the big mobs because they can 1-shot any non-tank. you probably want your best add tank on the fourth door.
healing this fight is all about triage healing. healing rain is a joke; when i did drop it, it was 80% overheal. even HST was unusually high at 22% overheal. for me, it was all about riptide & GHW; GHW+riptide+totem healing was 68% of my total. don't be afraid to use healing cooldowns at any time because you won't need raid healing cooldowns in the last phase (only the tanks take damage). i think i used HTT on the 2nd & 4th doors and ascendance on the 3rd.
the final bit of the puzzle for us was figuring out the tank stacks at the end. DK was tanking horridon during the 4th door.
- after the adds were dead, the pally taunted and HoP the DK to clear stacks.
- DK tanks war god, while pally gets ~5 stacks.
- once horridon was dead, pally used DS to clear stacks and keeps tanking.
- at 5 stacks, DK taunts. pally uses HoP on self to clear stacks.
- when DK hits 5 stacks, pally taunts and hits DK with HoP again.
- pally tanks to 5.
- DK taunts and tanks to 5.
he was dead well before the end of that.
One of the best things we did to get around the doors was to switch targets more. As an example on Door 3 we go Warlord -> Warlord -> Small Adds -> Warlord. We only have 3 range kill the Dinomancer since he has low health in the first place (for reference we also 2 heal). On the 4th door we kill Bear-> Shaman ->Bear -> Shaman -> Bear -> Shaman -> Casters -> Melee. The cleave isn't too big an issue and the only thing we ever need to watch for are totems since the fireballs by the Troll casters isn't too huge a problem.
Sounds like you're really close to finishing the fight. If we get at least 9 of our people to the boss burn phase we are able to finish this fight.
We were able to down it before the add nerf by doing what was suggested to you in the second door. The third door naturally fell simply when we had no adds up after the second door. However, we were doing this with 3 healers instead of 2.
What we noticed this week, and I don't know if we changed anything, but the fourth door was a nightmare. It seemed like everything was crazier and hitting harder than the week before. We were able to finish it by using our Heroism on door 4 unfortunately, but it took 4 or 5 attempts instead of the 1 that we thought it would take.
Overall, if you have the DPS, the fight is trivialized a bit by a third healer, especially if its a monk. That thing they use that rips off all debuffs and heals everyone is awesome. We were saving that for door 2, but due to our Paladin tank, and druid healer who is using symbiosis on him, they are able to keep the poison down in phase 2 enough that we can use it in phase 3 when it gets a little crazy.
Good luck this week, hopefully some gear drops from LFR will help. I think one of your biggest issues is going to be those hunters and their weapons, that sounds awful .
There are a few things you can do on this fight to make it a much simpler encounter overall.
1. As several people have said, interrupts on Door 2 are paramount. If you can keep the priests interrupted the damage output goes WAY down. When we first killed this fight we were not very geared (averaged between 490 to 497).
2. On door 3, we had our two melee focus on the small adds. In your comp having the monk and probably the boomkin focus on them would probably be your best bet. All other DPS focus on the Frozen Warlords. We also burned hero on this door on our first kills which can help you get over the hump.
3. On door 4, I highly recommend assigning your monk to deal with the flamecasters only and having everyone else focus on the Bears/Shamans. Do NOT have more than one shaman up at a time. You should be able to manage killing the first shaman just before the dinomancer spawns. Once you get the dinomancer dead and the door charged then focus down one bear and its rider than the other. You should have just enough time to do this before Jalak jumps into the fray.
4. Jalak is really not a problem, once you get to him you pretty much have a kill. He only has 17 million health on 10m normal and should just melt. If you did not have to burn hero on door 3, burn it here to get him down ASAP, then turn and burn Horridon.
Last edited by Code_Man65; 04-17-2013 at 10:21 AM. Reason: English Fail.