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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Future of Pure Classes

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - The Future of Pure Classes

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    I play a rogue because i dont want to tank or heal or range dps.
    So please dont make all classes hybrids. Id might get asked by my GM to go tank MS or w/e .

    When a pure class player is replaced with a hybrid because the raidgrp needed a hybrid. He should improve his dps, so next time a lower dps would be replaced instead of him.
    People who complain about hybrids just dont wanna admit that they were the weakest link, and got benched instead of better players.

    /Egészségére
    Last edited by mojusk; 02-21-2013 at 06:17 PM.

  3. #3
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    Part of the problem with hybrid classes in a raid environment is that even if you roll a DPS spec as your main, you aren't required to use hybrid abilities during combat. Retribution Paladin's aren't required to use any form of healing because it grants no benefit to damage output, as that is your primary role in the encounter, and casting heals is a DPS loss. Other classes have similar issues, though more so with classes that can heal and do damage, rather then those that can just do damage and tank. Not to mention hybrid abilities are very ineffective when you are talking about high levels of raid damage being done or a boss with massive amounts of health. For healers, throwing out some damage may not be such a big deal if they don't have mana issues, but even extra damage isn't needed in a raid group that can kill bosses without enrage timer problems.


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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojusk View Post
    I play a rogue because i dont want to tank or heal or range dps.
    So please dont make all classes hybrids. Id might get asked by my GM to go tank MS or w/e .

    When a pure class player is replaced with a hybrid because the raidgrp needed a hybrid. He should improve his dps, so next time a lower dps would be replaced instead of him.
    People who complain about hybrids just dont wanna admit that they were the weakest link, and got benched instead of better players.

    /Egészségére
    Raid groups should never need a hybrid class over a pure damage class because hybrid utility is still after all these years, pretty pointless outside of battle resurrections and the occasional raidwall cooldown ability. Hybrid abilities generally don't offer a whole lot over a pure damage class, and some hybrid abilities are available to pure classes too.


    The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart

  5. #5
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    Lei Shi is the kind of boss that would have had a warlock tank in frost res gear in TBC (the attack mechanic is exactly the same as Leotheras the Blind).

    They added a fourth spec for druid tanks and that worked out quite well.

  6. #6
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    Lore mentioned the ability for pure DPS to change spec (i.e. Afflic to Destro) with little cost other than minor reforge, gemming, glyphs, etc and for some of the pure DPS classes that it is true.

    However, the rogue/mage classes have completely different secondary stat priorities for each spec (e.g. Mage = Crit/Mast/Haste = Fire/Arc/Frost) and usually requires a complete (or partial) gear set to be maintained.

    I run as a fire mage but when needed I can change to Arc but it requires a me to maintain a 2nd gear set which given the VP Barriers (i.e. Rep grinding) or purely the time to generate coins for 2nd chance rolls on LFR/Norm/Heroic gear is a substantial task.

    Why can't a QoL change that allows Pure DPS classes to use the same 2nd stat dependent on their spec be provided similar to how Elemental Shaman's get a Spirit = Hit conversion. So if a mage on Feng is better in Arcane than say Fire they can switch specs and immediately have their Crit converted to Mastery.

    That instead of needing to farm and then carry a 2nd gear set would be a big improvement.

  7. #7
    Psst... it takes multiple gear sets for hybrids to use their offspecs too
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylen View Post
    Why can't a QoL change that allows Pure DPS classes to use the same 2nd stat dependent on their spec be provided similar to how Elemental Shaman's get a Spirit = Hit conversion. So if a mage on Feng is better in Arcane than say Fire they can switch specs and immediately have their Crit converted to Mastery.
    Uhm, you're a bit confused, I'm afraid.

    Mages can use Mastery, Haste and Crit in all three specs. Each of the three will increase your overall DPS for each of your specs. Different stats are better for different specs, so your Arcane gear is not optimal for your Fire gear, but it's still useful.

    To an Elemental Shaman, Spirit would be pointless, while he would need a lot of Hit. If the Spirit to Hit conversion wasn't there, they had to drop two types of caster mail. One set with spirit, one set with hit. The Spirit to Hit conversion exists, so Elemental shamans and Restoration shamans can use more or less the same pieces of gear, just like Fire, Frost and Arcane Mages can use more or less the same pieces of gear.

    However, the Elemental shaman will likely enchant, reforge and gem his gear quite different from how a Restoration shaman would enchant, reforge and gem it. The Elemental shaman will get just enough Spirit/Hit to be spellhit capped, and then focus on other stats, while the Restoration shaman will likely want a lot more spirit. After that, they will also want different secondary stats (Mastery/Haste/Crit).

    To this regard, it's still the same for mages as for Ele/Resto shamans, Balance/Resto druids and Shadow/Holy priests (and for that matter Feral/Guardian druids, Windwalker/Brewmaster monks and Retri/Prot paladins).



    By the way, Lore. If I understand correctly, you don't put a plate on the Strength mobs because clothies take too much damage, but because each plate has a convenient taunt button, and has the ability to keep on DPSing as he sidesteps the circle.

    Any melee class could do it just as well, as long as they can reliably get the aggro, and don't suffer too much DPS loss from being in front of the mob.

  9. #9
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    As far as versatility in fulfilling their role goes, pure DPS classes slightly ahead of hybrids. Problem with hybrids is that they only have ONE DPS spec to choose from, limiting their role in the raid. For example, Elemental Shaman cannot spec into something that gives him some sort of multi-dot, shadowpriest cannot spec into something that gives him very good single target, etc.

    In my opinion being as a class able to switch from DPS to healer or to tank is not an insanely useful thing to have, because very few players can actually master all of their hybril roles + have gear for everything. It's no good if you are missing a healer on progression and your ele shaman can kinda maybe heal, but is pretty bad. In a 25-man I guess it has a bit less impact, but on 10-man it's definitely a no-no.

  10. #10
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    Pures not getting two sets of gear when they swap from fight to fight has always been one of my pet peeves. Most of the toons I actually get to raid with tend to be tanks or heals because most often that's where my guilds have needed the more informed players (ones who know strats, gearing, gemming, etc). As a tank or heal, you are always a hybrid. I've always had to fight to have two sets of gear ready. If we hit a one tank or two heal fight, I was usually the one to switch because my os performance was almost always even above our dps only players. This is despite having to fight just to get any priority over other minor upgrades or os rolls vs mine. In fact, most times, I don't get an os piece unitl nobody else wants it. I see those who play a pure talking about how easy it was to get gear/vp/etc and how they have all this extra currency and just grumbled inside.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  11. #11
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    I'd be more concerned with the lack of healing cooldowns from pure classes that are available to the raid.

    To kind of explain what I mean I'll use an example from personal experience. On heroic Vizier during the first platform (and more importantly in the last phase of the encounter), we would use our two dps shaman (ele and enh) use their healing CDs to prevent the healers from having to waste theirs. I want to say they both used Ancestral Guidance as their cooldowns, but I'm not positive.

    This was extremely powerful for us in the last phase because it gave us a lot more longevity when we needed it the most. The same concept can be applied to abilities like Vampiric Embrace + Halo or Light's Hammer and whatnot. These healing cooldowns offer a lot more utility while the classes that provide them are at least comparable on damage meters as well.

    Also, in Challenge Modes I found it very comforting to have an elemental shaman because Ancestral Guidance REALLY helped to smooth over some of the more frightening AoE pulls.

    Just adding my 2cents. I'm not saying pures are doomed, but I value hybrids a lot more than I value pures.

  12. #12
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    "hey guys i'm getting tired of my paladin tank, i'd like to switch to my 'lock"
    - constantly looks for ways to tank with his lock

    not sure if scumbag steve or good guy greg

    ;D
    You never go full Rickotron.

  13. #13
    TIL that paladin = warlock
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  14. #14
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    If I were to apply the idea of giving pure dps specs a hybrid build I'd do it this way:

    Frost Mages = Tanks with Iceman style ice armor, pets for healing, buffs, ice block becomes something like shield wall for mage tanks

    Demonology Locks = Tanks that use their pets abilities for survivability, armor, avoidance, self-heals, some pets being better than others

    Survival Hunters - Tanks that use traps for mitigation and self-heals, pets can help with mitigation and avoidance

    Combat Rogues - Avoidance tanks, smoke bomb to confuse boss or mitigate damage, vanish would be helpful for tank swap fights, distract can be a taunt, tricks for rogue tanks will direct threat to the tank instead of away

    It's a lot tougher to come up ideas to make them into healers for me. Personally, I don't think any class should be a "pure" class, they should all be hybrids.

  15. #15
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    Given that 3 of the 4 pure specs are ranged I've never had much concern about disparities with pures and hybrids - the advantages of being ranged are vastly more imbalanced and its always seemed like rogues are 'balanced with other classes + provide tricks of the trade damage'. It is difficult to tell with rogues though because of the influence of the 'leave the rogues on the boss' effect in which the actual value of the damage rogues do in winning the fight is less valuable than that of damage that is switching to more vital targets. On raidbots et al they may look more competitive than they actually are - a rogue doing 100k dps purely to a boss is far less valuable than a mage doing 100k dps spread out amongst the boss and more important targets.

    There are already too many tank specs in my opinion. I guess it would help in 5mans, but Blizzard seems to be de-emphasizing those anyway. Unless they are moving back to 5+ tank fights I can't see any reason to expand it beyond 5 classes.

  16. #16
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    I'm more worried people will make my pure not a pure.

    Being able to dps in 3 different ways is far more valuable than anything a hybrid can bring.

    Stupid neo-hipsters just trying to act cool with their new age philosophies about class design, "remove gear progression" they say, "remove to trinity" they say, "down with pures" - bah humbug.

  17. #17
    Remember when there were actual hybrids and not "class with 2/3 distinct pure roles to pick from"?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Remember when there were actual hybrids and not "class with 2/3 distinct pure roles to pick from"?
    Um...not really, no.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravy
    Any plan that doesn't call for the end of the world or the extinction of the human race isn't a good plan

  19. #19
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    Bovinity probably refered to TBC/WotLK where you could go half into one talent tree and half into another. For some specs it wasn't worth it, since the final talent was just too good (though you got some leftover points to spare on other talent trees), but other specs did just fine with something like 40/21. or 31/30.

    But even then, you notice that the healer classes still have a lot of healing abilities in their DPS specs, some of which hardly give any DPS loss, which does on occasion make them quite more useful than a pure class, which can be a bit of a problem. The problem is not so much that they can respec to healing, but that they have so much utility in their DPS spec.

    Warriors and Death Knights are in a bit of a different boat, though. For one, they have no healing spec, so naturally, their DPS specs don't have strong healing power either. Secondly, they still have two specs to switch between if one spec is crap for DPS (3 if you consider "1H Fury" and "2H Fury" or "DW Frost" and "2H Frost" as different specs), so in that regard they're closer to pure than hybrid specs. It's not like they're very tanky in DPS spec and gear.

  20. #20
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    just spec 20/20/20 and save the last point for an emergency!
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