With comments likeSome of you gave me some terrific advice on tanking on another thread, yet here I seem surrounded by elitist jerks.
You didn't exactly do yourself any favours in that regard.Don't talk down to me, boy, unless you know who you are talking to.
Also thanyou Kaz. Which makes me feel bad about calling you all elitist jerks, which you are not.
We're not being elitist, it's what we've said the whole time (in this thread), we try to help people as best they can but when they do (essentially what you did) and blow up at us (ya I saw the unedited post) we get a bit uppidy.
And like I've said throughout the entire thread. It's not people who want to try and do better that I have an issue with, it's the people who just give up and say "I can't" and make excuses instead of produce results and progress. Look man, if you've just had it with WoW, it's not your genre/game, you like doing comp stomps in original SC, then fine, do that...
But don't come to us saying it's "too complex" when you hang out with doctors(and the implication seems to be you are one too) and I know people with no jobs at all that are good at this game. That whole trade was pretty underhanded in general, it also assumes we're all "boys" who don't know anything about nothin'... well we're not. Most of us posting in this thread are passed college or in grad school, or WAY passed college, and range from chemists, engineers, and IT people. The assumption of elitism for your RL station is just as presumptuous of those LFR people that you are hating on.
If you don't want to play, and you don't like a lot of the riff-raff in the LFR system and can't stand them, fine. Ya there are douchebags on the internet, but we're largely here to help. Don't explode at us and feed us excuses about your current situation when we've been the ones trying to help.
Last edited by Kazeyonoma; 04-03-2013 at 05:51 PM. Reason: removed direct mention of a member.
We do take pride in respecting people who come here starcruncher, and the moderation team works hard to keep bad apples away. There are a few who have crossed the line and I've stepped in to stop it but interacting with them and firing off your own insults don't put you into any better light than they. So take the high road, report bad posters, and move on with your day and thank you for joining our community.
I dunno about talking about payments and patronage are really the right place for this thread but lets just move back to the WoW community and discuss that eh?
I for one see that the Blizzard developers honor the casual gamer a lot especially with the announcement of Hearthstone at PAX East. I value this and I see the value in every player of every game, regardless of elite, casual, or whatever, all that matters to me is that we treat each other with the same level respect we do our own kind. So while any one of us could be an elite raider, a casual gamer, a competitive eSports junky/progamer, that doesn't mean we have a right to tell any of the other types of gamers who's right or who's wrong.
Remember, 1 or 2 bad apples is not indicative of the whole community here.
I honestly don't know how people aren't good at wow. There are so many places to get addons, macros and rotations for your specific class that its not even funny. Hell, you can usually ask people in game and theyll give you their $.02. Frankly, I'll help someone once if they ask. The second time is a hey, do this. You're not doing it right. 3rd time they get the boot/ignore. My GM has helped me a lot, and is the way I am (learned from her), but if you don't show improvement after a week, Gtfo. We can get someone willing to put the effort in to replace you.
I am a good player and I know there is room for improvement, but I learn at my pace, not someone elses.
Some of the best player/leaders are not good with people. They are too autocratic and I have watched many raiding guilds fall apart for this reason.
The other issue I would like to address is addons and macros.
I use recount and DBM and that is it. Everything else is just cheating, in my opinion.
Dbm is a bit of a cheat, but not nearly as bad as the rotation macros. I was required to get it long ago when I joined a guild and never removed it. I never use it except in that dungeon where the guy turns into a flaming vortex and I know when to get out of Dodge. All this to say. The raiding community might get a serious lesson in humility if all addons and macros were outlawed tomorrow.
I enjoy figuring things out for myself and have met many others that do also.
I am always trying to improve and help others do so as well. One of my favorite things in my guild is to run guildies through heroic dungeons to get vp and gear up. Nothing like the queue time of a tank in dungeons for getting vp fast and easy. One guy I ran today had never run dungeons before. His dps was lower than the healer and he barely made the heroic item level. I showed him a special way to get one gear item 50 points higher than he was wearing. The next dungeon his dps was up 5000 and he beat the healer. Tomorrow I will take him to the shado pan quartermaster to grab those battletags.
Why do I bother posting this?
Because there is room for the casual raider in this game and there are a lot more of them than there are raiders.
However you folks have the ability and they have the need. I think it boils down to attitude and the willingness to impart knowlege to others who may never be good enough to raid with you, but might group with others to have fun. The chinese wall that exists between casual and raiders is not sustainable. I think it is fun to help people and make friends.
There are guilds out there that run casual and hardcore teams and get along just fine.
And I have seen way too many raids fall apart because the leadership was too democratic. In a raid, especially a 25man one, you need 2-4 people that decide everything, otherwise you'll never get anything killed for all the talking.Some of the best player/leaders are not good with people. They are too autocratic and I have watched many raiding guilds fall apart for this reason.
Why is it cheating to have the UI display exactly the same information as before, just in a more easily readable format?I use recount and DBM and that is it. Everything else is just cheating, in my opinion.
Rotation macros allow you to perform at about 10% of your potential maximum. I don't know anybody that uses them. And if I found out that a guild member was using one (I'd look for the guy doing less damage than the healers) they'd be out on their ass faster than they could blink.Dbm is a bit of a cheat, but not nearly as bad as the rotation macros.
No, they wouldn't. They would simply stop playing because the stock UI is plain unusable for some roles. Some boss fights are nigh on unplayable without Bigwigs/DBM. Skada is a useful tool for analyzing combat if you know how. MSBT gets rid of the hundreds of yellow numbers that fill your screen and make you unable to see a damn thing. Postal alters using the ingame mail in such a way that it no longer makes you want to off yourself every time you see more than a page of mail.The raiding community might get a serious lesson in humility if all addons and macros were outlawed tomorrow.
What about the addons that made it into the stock UI?
Do you use the equipment manager built in to WoW? That used to be an addon back before Cataclysm. How about the movable UI elements? Also used to be addon-only before WotLK. Improved raidframe with debuff display that you can move, reshape etc.? That was introduced because everybody used Grid. The arrows on the minimap for questing? Became part of the stock UI in WotLK, before then it was an addon.
Addons and macros give the player the opportunity to set up the UI how it suits them best. Lack of UI customizability is one of the reasons why many of WoW's would-be competitors never made it big.
Basically, if you want a spot in our group, you have to earn it and prove to us why you're better than the other guy.
You do NOT have to be bad to be casual. That seems a constant montra that just bothers me, and if you want to learn at your own pace, don't be shocked if you try to raid with a guild and you hold them back and they get pissed. If you can find a guild that will tolerate that and hold your hand and doesn't really care how fast bosses die (and those do exist), that's a better fit for you.
I think both you and Ltranger need to stop generalizing so much. There's 9 million people that play WoW, turns out that makes for a diverse player base with any different philosophies to the game. Subsequently both you and Ltranger are right, as long as you find the right people to play with.
This makes no sense to me. If you're not good with people you are de-facto a bad leader, regardless of if you are too autocratic or too democratic. Dealing with people and knowing when to appeal to democracy and when to put your foot down and how to handle different people's reactions is ALL what a being a good "leader" is about. You have to be good with people or your guild will fail and therefore do not qualify as "some of the best leaders". Ya, players that aren't in leadership positions that try to be and are awful with people, that's true, I've seen that happen a lot. It's still very possible to be a great player and be bad with peopleSome of the best player/leaders are not good with people.
Gonna agree with everything fetzie said here. I will add that the normal boss warnings the bosses give now didn't used to be in the game and were added because of DBM. If there IS an addon that is a "cheat" it is dbm, and blizzard loves it and does not care at all that we use it.The other issue I would like to address is addons and macros.
I use recount and DBM and that is it. Everything else is just cheating, in my opinion.
That's fantastic, and that's what a lot of people here on this site do, it's called theorycrafting, but there's a point where you can go overboard. If you are trying to figure stuff out at your own pace and dragging down your guild because of it, and you're wiping to bosses because of you, you're gonna piss off the other 9-24 people you're raiding with.I enjoy figuring things out for myself and have met many others that do also.
I agree, but I disagree that there has to be this dichotomy that "casual = not as good as hardcore raider". You may not have the gear, you may not have the time to raid more than 6 hours a week, but that doesn't mean you don't have to know your class, optimize your UI and what you do on boss fights, gem/enchant properly, etc. I just simply don't buy the argument "well I'm casual so I'm okay with being bad and holding back the rest of the raid" and as long as people are in the mindset of "well there's raiders and there's casual raiders" that's always going to be a dichotomy and an excuse for laziness/dragging other people in the game down due to your performance.there is room for the casual raider in this game and there are a lot more of them than there are raiders.
That's why we're here, but...However you folks have the ability and they have the need. I think it boils down to attitude and the willingness to impart knowlege to others who may never be good enough to raid with you, but might group with others to have fun.
First, I don't think there is a wall, sites like tankspot disprove this, it's just in the minds of people because they occasionally run in to a few elitist pricks that forget they were bad at one point too. Secondly, it is perfectly sustainable to have "good players" and "bad players" in separate realms because people raiding with similar raiding philosophies are what make good and fun guilds. It's like putting Obama and Boehner on a sand volleyball team and getting SHOCKED that they don't get along. (note I say bad and good, not casual and hardcore)The chinese wall that exists between casual and raiders is not sustainable.
True, but they are usually autonomous groups run completely separately. "Feeder" raids just do not work.There are guilds out there that run casual and hardcore teams and get along just fine.
If you don't have time it becomes about efficiency.
I think we're all casuals around here nowadays, heh. =O
If I'm on my pally single targeting to keep a tank up, I'm going to fall behind the shammy spamming healing rain, chain heal and benefiting from AoE heals. By the same token, I'm probably going to crush the other healers on something like Lightening Storm with Hammer, Radiance, Holy Shock (for the AoE) and Light of Dawn.
Meters are great as tools, over time they can disclose the weak link, but they have to used as a tool not the be all to end all of evaluation. This is one area where I think the community has over done things, meters being an exclusive measure of performance.
Last edited by Theotherone; 04-10-2013 at 08:54 AM.
Well ya, a hammer is a great tool but can still be used by an idiot to hurt himself. Same goes with any tool, WoL/Recount/Etc. are just another one of those, "if used properly".
Intersting responses. I intend to be a part of a a guild just starting up on raiding. Yeah, the one I am in. W have a meeting scheduled tomorrow on how we go about it. yOu guys seem so helpful when I ask for advice (and you really do go out of your way to help) but you also seem close minded regarding recruitment of new raiders. It is like that song "The Green Berets" "100 men will test today, but only 3 win the green beret". Someone above said the raids are impossible without the cheats... oops i mean addons. I don't think so. I would wager that you give me 9 dedicated people and we will form a raiding ream that may not be number one, but we will accomplish something far more important. We will have a lot of fun achieving our goals together as a team. I also want there to be more than one team in the guild.
We are in a grounbreaking era. WOW has suffered immense losses in subscribers (2 million is nothing to sneeze at regadless of what industry you are talking about.) The new people joining should never get the impression that they will never be raiders, or that raiding is a very serious business. (This is the type of talk I picked up while leveling and learnng the game) Raiding is simply the ultimate goal we ALL strive for. I don't want to hear that you HAVE to do this or you HAVE to do that. I ntend on entering the 10 man rading scene with a group where we all have our strong points and weak points. Gear makes a ton of difference. Knowledge on stat priority, gemming and hit chance are just a few things required to learn to help your toon to do a better job.
As to autocratic vs democratic... I look at it this way (from an experienced dungeoneers point of view) If you bark orders to people it tends to rub them the wrong way. If you tell a player they suck it REALLY rubs them the wrong way. If you work with them enough to get the skills needed to compete they are not only thankful, but feel an immense sense of accomplishment vs the stress of competing for that coveted spot with that super great raiding guild.
I was scard as shit to tank my first raid.
But I finally did it an found out it isnt the terror I thought it was. A healer and I run dugeons together and then critique our peformance after with recount as a guide.
I know a lot of you have been here for years and feel you have earned and deserve a higher staus, but this elitism can turn people away.
You guys are good and thanks for the help. Try to give some thought to what I just related.
Addons are not cheating. Blizzard tunes encounters around addons, if they ever feel that an addon is "cheating" they break the functionality of the addon (exactly like they did with AVR-E). Furthermore how do you feel about addons whose functionality is now part of the default UI? boss emotes are part of the default UI, they didn't used to be. Gear set management didn't used to be, you used to have to swap out every piece every single time, or the default raid frames? They used to be Really awful, but they currently are very similar and incorporate alot of features that you used to need an addon to do, or show effectively. or the sparkly gold border on procced abilities.that was originally an addon.
Sometimes people do suck, and it is their fault if you wiped because they can't understand something as simple as "don't dispel people whilst their in the raid" if they can't accept criticism, then they probably shouldn't be on the internet nor should they be playing with others. Being a good raid leader is about identifying why you wiped and what you can do to stop that happening again. You can take the gently gently approach and that might work, but in a raid environment where you have 8+ other people waiting for you to coach the weak link into learning to play, you just end up breeding resentment. and the longer it takes for him to get up to speed, the more likely your decent raiders will jump ship.
What's wrong with being scared? it's an appropriate response to the unanticipated, probably backed up by years of your ancestors not dying due to a healthy fear of the unknown.