+ Reply to Thread
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 108

Thread: Where the Community Really Begins in WoW

  1. #41
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,953
    Add hunters who refuse to turn growl off in HCs, or glyph stampede.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    187
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    of course, low dps players exist. but people that go "well I just can't, I won't be better and am happy with this even if I'm only doing 30k dps and omg why aren't people taking me to raids and carrying me and holding my hand." is the definition of a straw man. people like that are certainly uncommon or don't exist at all.
    Then I've managed to be associated with a statistically significant proportion of them, because you're not describing a reality I've lived in.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Add hunters who refuse to turn growl off in HCs, or glyph stampede.
    I agree on Growl, but it really isn't worthwhile burning 2 reagents each time you run heroics (unless HC means something else). Unglyphed stampede can be more dps than glyphed for both solo play and some 5 man groups (due to how some of the pet buffs work). On my hunter alt, I usually just ask the tank if he/she cares if I use stampede or not. I don't have to use it in 5 mans if he/she has heartache over it.
    Last edited by jere; 03-16-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,953
    as Melee, especially a sub rogue i like the boss not spinning, especially the second boss in SPM its annoying to be behind him, in the middle of a shadow dance and then dead becuase the hunter decided to pop stampede just as the boss uses Fists of fury,the second boss of Gate of the setting sun, or Harlan in scarlet halls, are both similar; taking their frontal cones to the face isn't something i like doing even if it is a DPS increase, over the what 5% dps loss becuase i'm now being parried. Likewise losing uptime on the boss becuase the tank can't move it out the fire/voidzone is also annoying, sure i could stand in it and live, but i'm kinda of the habit of avoiding fire.

    And this is assuming the hunter in question has actually stabled a decent selection of pets, which more often than not, they don't. Hell most of the ones i've found in LFG won't even change pets to get out one that beings a buff the group and are perfectly fine using a tenacity specced pet the entire run. of course if you really never want to not stampede, take Growl off auto cast off all your pets and stampede doesn't taunt. ever. Takes about 20 seconds to do all the pets currently on you.

    This is what really annoys me; its a really simple fix, but people are just too lazy to do it.

    EDIT: and if that's too much to manage after a hard days questing.

    #showtooltip Dismiss pet
    /petautocastoff Growl
    /cast Dismiss Pet
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 03-16-2013 at 05:57 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,022
    Oh definitely, that's why it's always important to ask (or take growl off your pets). I was just shedding light on why the glyph was not typically a solution most hunters go for. It's not worth the tradeoff for a random heroic. The easier/politer solution is just not to use it if it is going to cause heartache or battle issues. Most hunters use it in heroics out of either apathy or ignorance (some people just don't think about things like what the boss spinning around impacts) just to get big DPS numbers. In those situations, they'll mostly likely not care/not know they are lowering sub rogue/feral druid/etc. dps and putting the group in danger cause the tank can't move the boss.
    Last edited by jere; 03-17-2013 at 06:33 AM.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Brisbane Australia
    Posts
    29
    I have played LoL I played with some friends from my horde server so it wasn't so bad. I have heard the tales of abuse though. I quit wow because i was a bit burnt out, I stupidly helped one of my old raiding buddies from alliance to level his guild, recruit new members and form a raid team. Probably this was too much to do seeing as the guild was level one. I was finding the standing around trying to get tanks in trade chat pretty horrible on a Saturday and Sunday night especially seeing as the GM and his cousin wanted main tank and off tank positions and then rarely turned up for our four days a week raiding schedule. After a couple of weeks to cool down I do think I was helping too much.My DPS may have been a bit on the low side but usually I was top DPS or at least in the top 3, not too bad for an older player. I think the 16 year olds in my guild who decided it was a fun pass time to sledge the old lady about her DPS were the straw that broke the old lady's back. I think I've reached the point that I should stop playing anyway. When I wrote the original post I was feeling a bit sad about all of the above and a tad angry. The boys will do very well without me I am sure. Maybe one day I will go back to do some relaxing questing and five man content and LFR but for now I'm taking an extended holiday after playing every day for 7 years. I did love hunting and the wonderful world of warcraft and the unusual community. I still see and talk to the players on Facebook and catch up for coffee, play other games with a few including weird things like draw something and words with friends...go figure. I do enjoy hearing about how careers are blossoming, how gf's have become wives, how dabbling is music ends up being a serious recording.Sorry about my earlier burnt out WoW mum post.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Oh, they're actually pretty common. Now, granted, maybe their conscious thought process isn't quite that specific,
    but that's exactly my point. the thought process is what i'm calling out as a straw man.

    i agree that there are bad players, there are lazy players, there are people who quit when progression gets harder, and that there are LOTS of people who think they're doing fine even though they're not.

    i also agree there are plenty of players who get mad when not taken to raids. but it's been my experience that these players are usually immature, basically selfish, and mostly think they're amazing players. i'm in total agreement with you guys about dealing with this type, and i've run into plenty of them. my solution is just not interacting with them at all.

    what i don't agree with is that there's lots of players in the game who are performing really poorly, know they're performing really poorly, refusing to try and get better, happy about performing really poorly, still demanding to be taken to raids, and demanding to be carried. i've just not run into this.

    the difference is important. i'm talking about players who aren't as skilled, but are pleasant; you guys are talking about players who aren't as skilled and are also unpleasant.

    let's consider 4 categories of player:
    • skilled at pushing buttons + pleasant
    • not skilled at pushing buttons + pleasant
    • skilled at pushing buttons + dickhead
    • not skilled at pushing buttons + dickhead


    the first type i'd invite to guild and raid team
    the second type i'd invite to guild, but as social or casual raid team
    the third type i would not invite to guild, but might be able to tolerate for a short time in a pug/etc
    the fourth type goes on /ignore

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    599
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    what i don't agree with is that there's lots of players in the game who are performing really poorly, know they're performing really poorly, refusing to try and get better, happy about performing really poorly, still demanding to be taken to raids, and demanding to be carried. i've just not run into this.
    I've been doing a "semi-casual" (most of us just don't have the time for a hardcore progressions schedule) 10 man since late T11, and in that time I've seen every type of raider there is. That includes your above described. In DS, I'd say around the time of the 10% nerf, my guild was in the process of falling apart and a handful of us were working very hard to get and keep it together. In that process we picked up a H-Pally that we had pugged a few times in Firelands. He was for all intents and purposes a pretty nice guy.

    As we started to get back into progression it became very clear that he was getting carried. Whenever we would talk to him about it, his response was: His class had been nerfed a bit and that Resto Druids (the healer molly-whopping him on the meters every fight) were just overpowered, so there was no reason for him to try to get better. Nothing we said could convince him that he was capable of doing better, and therefor he was quite content with the way things were. And so we pushed on like that.

    We managed to get H-Boat down around the time of the 30% nerf. As we started poking at Spine it became very clear that it wasn't going to happen with him healing. If I recall correctly we were getting the second plate off and then just dying from raid damage caused by bloods dieing. Every single attempt, the H-Pally was beat by at least 20k hps and the Druid was OOM when we died.

    So, as 5.0 approached and people started to return to playing WoW we started making plans to hit the ground running in MoP. When it came time to explain to the H-Pally taht we were going to be replacing him, he was shocked, he thought we were just trolling. I had to sit there and explain our reasons, even post meters, and tell him that we asked him multiple times to try to improve. He just did not understand why we wouldn't want him to raid with us. As far as he was concerned, we were all friends and that made it perfectly ok for him to be lagging behind.

    Now, after that incident despite my best efforts I have lost a lot of patience for people who when offered, or even seek, advice on how to better themselves in game, fail to put any amount of effort into it. I'm not saying I expect immediate performance improvement, but for those who know how to look at finer details, you can see evidence of effort at least. For me it has just become a black and white comparison. Is this person going to show any respect for the time of those around him, or is he just looking to get free loot.

    Yes, there are very nice people who haven't sought to better their game-play in any way. It's just a game after all, why would they need too. For those people Blizzard made LFR. Inviting them to a progression oriented raid though is just uncalled for. I can't imagine it's fun for them to wipe and show no sign of progression, and it's definitely not fun for the people around them who are actually trying.

    So, in summary, yes, there are people who fail to view anything they do with in-adequacy. It's actually a lot more common among human beings than you would think. Does this make them bad people? No, just human. I don't really have a follow up point to that, it's just an observation.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    339
    fair enough, but did he fit the complete description? shocked is one thing, but when you told him he's was being replaced, did he demand to be taken to the raid and demand that you guys continue to carry him?

    i raided with someone who fit your description almost exactly, except he was dps and we were failing at downing the tendons in two goes. i had to talk to him and tell him i was going to have to find someone else if he couldn't improve. in the end, he did improve just enough so we could get past it. however, in my case the guy never demanded to be carried along; he realized he was a bit low and tried to get better, but he just couldn't. in the end, when 5.0 hit i replaced him in order to improve the overall group, and he eventually left the guild to find a new home. but since it wasn't on bad terms, he doesn't fit the "demanding" part.

    i shouldn't say my hypothetical player doesn't exist at all, because speaking in absolutes is rarely accurate. maybe you did play with someone who was under-skilled, not interested in getting better, and a total dick about demanding to be taken to raids. if so, have you had many like that in your raid, or just this one?

    i guess what i'm objecting to is what i see as a characterization of the vast majority of under-skilled players as all being these lazy jerks who feel entitled to raid spots. i believe most of them are probably striving to improve like all of us do, but aren't able to (at least not as quickly).

    Inviting them to a progression oriented raid though is just uncalled for. I can't imagine it's fun for them to wipe and show no sign of progression, and it's definitely not fun for the people around them who are actually trying.
    absolutely, and i've agreed with this point since the beginning; raids groups work best when everyone is of similar skill level.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    5,527
    Not just similar skill, but similar raiding philosophy as well.

    This is really kind of devolving into anecdotal and semantic arguments.

    Point is there's lots of different kinds of players, and pretty much everyone that's posted in this thread and hangs out on this forum will try to give people the best advice they can when asked, have spent time helping people (even complete strangers), and are really here at tankspot because we like doing that.

    However, we all have our battle scars and our patience does have its limits. We've been tired of being told we're bad when we're giving good advice and being told to eff off by people, we're tired of explaining how something is done and getting the response "that's too hardcore for me, I'm just a casual", etc. etc. Some people can't be helped, some people don't want to be helped, whatever the reason "bad" players do exist and not taking them to raids, or not going out of your way to help them, to me, are perfectly acceptable courses of action.

    Unacceptable courses of action: messaging them and telling them they're bad, berating them, etc. Those are the kind of things that really do damage a community. None of us are advocating that.

    But looking up someone's armory and seeing it look like rainbow bright gemmed their gear and they have missing enchants and just clearly don't know how their class works... I think it's perfectly acceptable to politely turn them down for the PuG raid you're trying to complete.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    599
    Well, first of all, ditto to what Agg said. I don't think there's ever been a Thread in the HALP forum that went more than a day un-answered, if not by multiple people. I came to this website early in Cata, one of those "bad" players who had almost no idea what the hell they were doing. Since then I've done my best to give pointers to those who seek them and even those who don't on occasion. The latter of the two have had about a 50/50 chance of biting me in the ass thus far. But those are odds I'm willing to take, because /ignore is easy, but finding somebody who appreciates you taking time to help them makes it worth it a lot of the time.

    To answer you question Maklar, essentially, yes. Granted as I said he was actually a pretty nice guy, so he wouldn't go as far to make a demand..... (Who demands things over the internet anyway? I think that's a good way to get asked: Bro, do you even lift?) But it was clear that from his point of view he was more than entitled to continue raiding with us. I spent at least 15 minutes trying to explain to him that 1) I was being serious, and 2) Yes, despite us getting along well on a personal level it wasn't going to cut it for progression raiding. It wasn't exactly an easy talk, It was like telling a 6 year old Christmas was canceled. I think at the end of it he felt betrayed and that we were being unfair.


    I was going to make that a short reply because this thread has been running itself in circles, but alas, I rambled.
    Last edited by Gregasaurous; 03-21-2013 at 07:30 AM.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    This is really kind of devolving into anecdotal and semantic arguments.
    Is there really any other way to discuss this? I doubt there has been made any research as to how skilled players are vs. their attitude.
    On topic though, it seems that Gregasauros hit on one of the most troublesome types of players imo, the person who is very friendly, but in return also expects that being friends also means that any sort of requirement towards their performance is gone. I've encountered several of these people during my travels through different guilds through the ages, and it seems that those people work in 25 man (non hardcore ofc) but simply won't cut it in any but the most casual of 10 man.
    This actually spurred me to leave a guild at one point, their main characters were decently gemmed and enchanted. But I liked creating alt runs, and ofc invited everyone from the guild to join in, even though we would probably have to PuG some people. Some of my guildies then showed up in full unenchanted and ungemmed pvp gear (This being in Cata where resi counted towards stat budgeting) and just assumed that would completely ok, because we were friends.
    So I'd actually like to ask a question, would that be ok with you guys, if a person showed up to an alt run in completely unenchanted and ungemmed gear?

    I have a story about the whole, 2 raid teams in one guild.
    It was a sort of backwards situation in our guild, the B-team overtook the A-team in progress, which caused a lot of drama in the guild, especially as the B-team only raided 1 day/week where the A-team raided 2-3 days/week. When the B-team surpassed the A-team the A-team basically fell apart because of the frustration this had caused, it ended up with the B-team (which I was leading) seeing no other way out than leaving the guild and creating our own guild.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by theodisius View Post
    I've had to reign myself in a little on WoW, as I find in LFR I am becoming "that guy" who rants at others for their failures or tries to kick them.
    Actually, for me, the only people I try to kick in LFR would be obvious afkers (afk during fight), and douchebags, including people who are 'that guy'. It's LFR. If you want to be kicking people for DPS or healing meters, go to normal or heroic, imo.

    Sure, I cringe sometimes when I see people doing badly in LFR, but, if they're participating, that's fine with me. Intentional AFK is not OK. Especially if you're in normal or heroic gear. I *really* hate that. Since you only need 40%, and I'm usually in there with ~10 guildies who I figure I can count on to be at 80%, if not higher, then just the 10 of us can make up for 10 'participants' easily, and probably more.

    Normal or heroic raiding is a completely different animal. Then you can get out your meters and performance metrics and start kicking with my blessing.

    Edit: To clarify, we end up in LFR with 10 or more guildies as a social event, more than anything. We might have 15 guildies in the group, but 10 of them that I know can do 80%+. The other five probably can't make the normal raid team, but, fun people to do LFR with. Also, with 10-15 people in a group of 25, if you're a douchebag or AFKer, you're gone. There's enough of us to make it stick. Does tend to make LFR a more pleasant experience.
    Last edited by mavfin; 03-25-2013 at 02:05 PM.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karlsruhe/Germany
    Posts
    4,010
    So I'd actually like to ask a question, would that be ok with you guys, if a person showed up to an alt run in completely unenchanted and ungemmed gear?
    If they want to raid on their alt, they should take it seriously.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    If they want to raid on their alt, they should take it seriously.
    Agreed. If you want to raid past LFR, gems and enchants are a must. Now, I'm not going to expect someone to buy the really expensive high-end enchants for blue gear to start raiding, but, there's usually cheaper ones of those. Some effort is nice to see, regardless. No gems, no enchants just screams *CARRY ME*. I'm not against doing so for alts sometimes, but, obviously I've got a threshold on that. "I'll carry your alt tonight, fine, but don't shove it in my face that I'm doing so"? Dunno, but that's how I am. YMMV.

    (Personally, I won't go into LFR unenchanted/ungemmed, but that's just me. I don't expect others in that place to be that way.)

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    339
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregasaurous View Post
    I was going to make that a short reply because this thread has been running itself in circles, but alas, I rambled.
    ramble on; i'm quite enjoying this thread. i think it actually goes beyond wow and speaks to the fast-growing social internet community in general. the social aspect of the internet has grown so quickly and in unexpected ways, that "how to behave" is lagging way behind. the adage about normal person + anonymity = dickwad is really true, and that fascinates me. why is it so easy to treat someone badly simply because you don't know each others true identity? i really don't have an answer for that, but i enjoy exploring it.

    recently, we're seeing more and more ways that people strike back at trolls and try to peel back that anonymity layer; did you see the story about the boxer who tracked down a nasty twitter troll and then tweeted a picture of the street sign where the guy lived with the message "anyone gonna tell me the house number or do i have to knock on every door"? the tweets all of a sudden took a very different tone.

    so how is it that we can cheer the boxer who makes his troll run scared, yet turn into trolls ourselves in the next breath? or are these two completely different sets of people? i'm not buying the latter.

    not taking them to raids, or not going out of your way to help them, to me, are perfectly acceptable courses of action.

    Unacceptable courses of action: messaging them and telling them they're bad, berating them, etc. Those are the kind of things that really do damage a community. None of us are advocating that.

    But looking up someone's armory and seeing it look like rainbow bright gemmed their gear and they have missing enchants and just clearly don't know how their class works... I think it's perfectly acceptable to politely turn them down for the PuG raid you're trying to complete.
    i agree 100% with this. but regarding the bolded section, although nobody has come out to advocate for it, i can browse this forum and quote posts made by people who have even posted in this very thread that demonstrate very different behavior than what we've just defined as acceptable.

    essentially, yes. Granted as I said he was actually a pretty nice guy, so he wouldn't go as far to make a demand.....
    sorry, but i think this disqualifies him from fitting the description. the word "demand" implies that the person is being a dickhead, and i think that's the biggest thing i objected to in the straw man description. if he was a dickhead, i bet it would have been a lot easier to drop him from the raid group, right?

    dropping a nice guy who's under-performing is much harder on a personal level; the way you described it shows that you weren't being a jerk to him, so +1 internets for you. in fact, it was a pretty good description of how to handle replacing someone that needed to go for the good of the raid team.

    So I'd actually like to ask a question, would that be ok with you guys, if a person showed up to an alt run in completely unenchanted and ungemmed gear?
    depends on how you advertised it, but usually no. unless you said the raid was for much older content, or specifically told people you didn't care about their toons' gear situation, then some effort should be put into getting raid ready.

    Actually, for me, the only people I try to kick in LFR would be obvious afkers (afk during fight), and douchebags, including people who are 'that guy'. It's LFR. If you want to be kicking people for DPS or healing meters, go to normal or heroic, imo.

    Sure, I cringe sometimes when I see people doing badly in LFR, but, if they're participating, that's fine with me. Intentional AFK is not OK. Especially if you're in normal or heroic gear. I *really* hate that.
    i'm pretty similar. yesterday i queued for my daily random and i got in just before the last boss. right away a kick box popped up for a hunter who was already in the group, with the reason given "only doing 17k dps which is terrible". i voted no. who cares? i'm going to do 100k on a short fight, so it really doesn't matter who else is in there, as long as they're trying. this heroic might be their progression, and kicking them just before you pull the last boss is a dick move.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    599
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    sorry, but i think this disqualifies him from fitting the description. the word "demand" implies that the person is being a dickhead, and i think that's the biggest thing i objected to in the straw man description. if he was a dickhead, i bet it would have been a lot easier to drop him from the raid group, right?
    Well, I guess that just comes down to how you view some of the finer details and how it reflects on somebody's personality. But form your original description of your supposed "non-existent" player type, from my point of view it would be quite accurate to substitute "demand" for "expect", and fit your description. But quite frankly, anybody stupid enough to make a vocal demand over an in-game issue without ANY ground to stand on would never have made it into a raid with me. But, an expectation on the other hand, those can be a little harder to pick up on. That H Pally really did expect to just get carried. I don't quite understand where you're making your defining point.

    You have stated that:
    There are people who think they're good, realistically aren't, and think they should be allowed to raid.

    You however don't think that somebody who is quite aware of their inadequacy would demand to be carried for the sake of their own personal benefit/enjoyment at the expense of 9 (or 24) other peoples time and effort?
    Call me cynical, but I think there are a good amount of people in this world with that mindset.


    I know this more than qualify's for Aggs description of "anecdotal and semantic arguments". I think that where you see clear defining differences, I see linked similarity's. If that makes any sense at all.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,028
    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    ramble on; i'm quite enjoying this thread. i think it actually goes beyond wow and speaks to the fast-growing social internet community in general. the social aspect of the internet has grown so quickly and in unexpected ways, that "how to behave" is lagging way behind. the adage about normal person + anonymity = dickwad is really true, and that fascinates me. why is it so easy to treat someone badly simply because you don't know each others true identity? i really don't have an answer for that, but i enjoy exploring it.
    If you're really interested there's new book by a philosophy professor, William B. Irvine called, "A Slap in the Face: Why Insults Hurt - And Why They Shouldn't." In a nutshell, insults evoloved as a way to move ones self up the social order food chain and knock someone else down the social order.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Chicagoland
    Posts
    29
    I got kicked from a raid on my main and went f'ing ballistic. The guy who kicked me didnt know the mechanics and blamed me for the wipe on tortos BECAUSE MY TURTLE KICKS DIDNT INTERUPT Tortos. When I think about it I still want to rip someones head off. I am probably lucky I didn't get banned for some of the things I said, but when you wait 45 minutes, then raid for another 45 and someone pulls that and makes you a scapegoat in a 25 man... I go crazy.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Karlsruhe/Germany
    Posts
    4,010
    The guy who kicked me didnt know the mechanics and blamed me for the wipe on tortos BECAUSE MY TURTLE KICKS DIDNT INTERUPT Tortos.
    But you are supposed to interrupt the Stone Breath with the turtle kick, aren't you?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts