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Thread: Where the Community Really Begins in WoW

  1. #21
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    Bartender has the option to make any specific bar click through. Nothing trains you out of clicking like not being able to click.
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  2. #22
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    You guys kill me.

    My comment was not a cry for help. I told you I am a clicker and you tell me to adapt. I came in 3rd DPS in last nights raid on Thunder Isle. My DPS is fine for my level. After the buff I do 90k on the dummy. I worked for 25 years as a finance manager in the car business and always made over 100k a year, looking at my keyboard while typing. I am fine with what I do and no I have no intention of being a hardcore raider, but I was making a suggestion that could help the game of WOW as a whole.

    When listening to Lore, I got the impression that he and by extention, this site, do not believe that players with lesser skill level are "bad or stupid" but just prefer to play their own way.

    I guessed wrong.

    You guys are great at giving advice, but just like your "stupid" players when it comes to taking any.

  3. #23
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    You can ALWAYS bee a better gamer. If you're 3rd on DPS and don't hold your raid back then fine, our suggestions aren't for you, but when you experience adversity then you need to learn how to adapt.

    To this day I find ways I can tweak my gameplay and be better gamer, do MORE DPS, etc. I'm usually 3rd or 4th in DPS in my guild, and I'm not happy with that, and I'm NOT a clicker. Granted the people ahead of me are really good raiders but that's irrelevant, I want to do better.

    But clearly, you're being taken to raids, you've found your group, so I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally and insisting that how much you make is some sort of valid argument against it (and if you really want to play that game we can, just because someone takes a game seriously doesn't mean they aren't also successful in real life, and vice versa).

    What we're saying is, "if you have X problem" such as the laundry list you provided in your own post, there are ways around it that forces you to adapt to become better. And all of us there have helped those people.

    What we're saying is that when someone says "X is a legitimate reason" we all go "wtf no it isn't." What bothers us isn't people that try to become better, it's people that go "well I just can't, I won't be better and am happy with this even if I'm only doing 30k dps and omg why aren't people taking me to raids and carrying me and holding my hand."

    Wanna talk about overcoming diversity? I heard about a guy that was a rogue that only had one hand. Was a great raider because he found ways to overcome. He used like gas pedals from racing games to strafe/multitask and had a multi button mouse with lots of macros on it. That's a guy that doesn't quit and adapts.

    It's not stupidity or "being bad" that those of us ranting in this thread are talking about, it's people that are unwilling to try and just say "I can't." The people that are at least willing to sit down with us and try hard... man I've raided with those people, some of them have become life long friends, because the TRY and they're fun to be around. They're not worse humans because they're not as good at WoW as I am. It's the people that don't try at all and just go "well I'm just not good, here's a list of excuses why so I'm just going to deal with my low dps".
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    That. if you have proven yourself to be incompetent at raiding then it is on you to get better. i, as a raid leader, have a responsibility to the rest of the raid who are pulling their weight and are getting frustrated that someone that isn't even doing half of what they could be doing. if you have a computer that is less powerful than a toaster them it is your responsibility to buy a new one. if you can't do that them maybe you need a new guild.

    if you can't touch-type then learn. you'll need to be able to when you go to work anyway.

    Those legit reasons are easily fixable. Just takes a bit of effort. And if you arent prepared to do that maybe you are playing the wrong game.
    The above is the reason I took it personally.

    All I am suggesting is that guilds can incorporate soft-core raiding and hard-core for both types of players. The advantage is that the soft-core can perhaps turn in to hardcore, if they so desire, without the ridiculous process of finding a "hardcore raiding guild".

  5. #25
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    There is a big difference between soft core raiding and being incompetent at raiding. If soft core raiders want to go hardcore, its not a lot of effort to go guildox, or wow progress, or Tankspot to see whose recruiting and actually spend time or so practicing being good at your class.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by starcruncher View Post
    All I am suggesting is that guilds can incorporate soft-core raiding and hard-core for both types of players. The advantage is that the soft-core can perhaps turn in to hardcore, if they so desire, without the ridiculous process of finding a "hardcore raiding guild".
    Well sure, but that also goes to what type of raid environment you want. I'm currently in the kind of guild you're describing, it's composed mostly of ex-hardcore raiders that don't have the time/desire to commit 40 hours+ a week to WoW any more, so we accept a more "casual" tone to our raiding and frankly even though we have some extremely skilled players, we were probably lucky to finish normal modes before T15 came out.

    But like teng said, there's a HUGE difference between "casual/softcore" raiders and "incompetent at raiding". Hell, we currently have a raider that is doing awful dps and is holding us back, but instead of calling him bad and kicking him out, we're working with him on how to play his class and trying to get him better weapons/gear so that he doesn't hold us back as much.

    And furthermore, I would even take offense to equating "casual" or "softcore" with "bad" (not dumb or stupid, because again, there is a difference, just because someone is bad at a game doesn't mean they're an idiot in real life) because that seems to be your implication. Even in an casual setting you don't have to be a medicore or bad raider and then everyone can just be "OKAY" with that and look the other way.

    And that's where the crux of what we're getting at happens. The difference is in "trying" or "not trying and giving excuses instead of results."

    Wanna know what my favorite raid environment is? The ones where everyone is friends and everyone pulls their weight and you don't raid 40+ hours a week, maybe like 6-9 hours a week and you still get stuff done, quickly, efficiently, with great people/friends and have a great time. That's where community happens, imo, where you can find your subset of the gaming culture and other like-minded people that agree and everyone has FUN. It's a game, right?
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    There is a big difference between soft core raiding and being incompetent at raiding. If soft core raiders want to go hardcore, its not a lot of effort to go guildox, or wow progress, or Tankspot to see whose recruiting and actually spend time or so practicing being good at your class.
    Actually, from my experience, most hardcore raiders take the game too seriously and have trouble distinguishing between the casual and the incompetent.

    As to finding a raiding guild, I tried doing just that and found a lot of bad fits, the hard way. I was in Area 52 and as big as it was there were only 5 alliance guilds on wowprogress and none were recruiting. I called WOW and a support tech told me to go to the recruitment section of wowguide. I did and sure enough all the invitations in my realm were from horde guilds. So I started creating alts in different realms to check out the guildfinders. There wasnt a huge selection of realms either. I don't PVP, which cuts down my choices. The guidfinder is like sifting for gold. You find a ton of guilds with maybe 20 members or less. Then you have the ones who want to, but never have raided. Then you have the serious hardcores who want a 12 page application filled out.

    Again, I think it would help the casual raider and the hardcore if they both resided in the same guild. That way the hardcore team would always have an "in-house" pool to choose from and not have to go outside the realm to recruit. Lore mentioned in a video how he feels that is a problem, because of the transfer fees.

    I saw the topic of this thread and read the OP and thought I could offer a helpful suggestion.

  8. #28
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    As lore as stated many times before, we try not to lump "Casual" and "bad" into the same category. There might be some correlation, but that's largely irrelevant for this conversation. Imo, "bad" players use casual as an excuse to not care that they aren't doing their rotation properly, or gemming properly, or reforging properly, and that bugs me because it takes a trivial difference in time commitment to do those things properly.

    I'm casual right now, I only raid 6 hours a week, but I definitely don't consider myself bad.

    So what exactly do you mean this:
    I think it would help the casual raider and the hardcore if they both resided in the same guild. That way the hardcore team would always have an "in-house" pool to choose from
    As someone that lead guilds for 4+ years, this translates to me as, "have people in the same guild with different raiding philosophies so that they can possibly raid together."

    The BEST raids (for values of best that = most fun), are when everyone has the same raiding philosophy and ethic. Trying to mix the two often ends in disaster.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  9. #29
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    Again, I think it would help the casual raider and the hardcore if they both resided in the same guild. That way the hardcore team would always have an "in-house" pool to choose from and not have to go outside the realm to recruit
    Been there, done that, ended in tears and a guild split.

    I worked for 25 years as a finance manager in the car business and always made over 100k a year, looking at my keyboard while typing.
    I don't care how much you earn. You can be a bum that spent the few coppers he found between the cobblestones on a laptop and a 3G stick or the CEO of a multi-national - I don't care. In a raiding guild, you are a raider and you should do your utmost to put out the top dps, be the best healer or the most attentive tank.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 03-13-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  10. #30
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    Ok let me approach it from another angle.

    Suppose you have a hardcore team, as I surmise you once did.

    Your guild would not refuse anyone membership, nor would it require an application. That said, the rules of proper guild behavior would need to be adhered to. The hardcore raiding team would be comprised of the guild officers. There would be as few or as many casual raiding teams as well inside the guild. These teams could be comprisedof less competent players. Some would never want to move to hardcore. while others might. As far as philosophy goes, the player who wishes to get on the hardcore team will adopt it.

    The casuals could do dungeons together, which are a lot of fun for 90 blue geared toons.

    They could also form 25 man teams.

    The 5 man teams could compete against each other in stats.

    You could offer rewards to the winning teams.

    Also, you could probably charge dues to allow them there with a structured casual raiding environment. By "dues" I mean like farming buffs or mats. I think it could work. I understand your reluctance and maybe this has been tried before and didn't work, but if anyone would know how to set up such a guild it would have to come from you guys... the experts.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Been there, done that, ended in tears and a guild split.
    OK I didn't think I had a new idea.

  12. #32
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    You mean like a "casual" or "real life friend" rank? Pretty sure most guilds already have those. Having multiple raids in the same guild is extremely hard for the guild officers to manage.

    Allowing everybody entry to your guild is very dangerous. Bad behaviour of casual members can kill your guild's reputation over night, and you won't be able to get rid of that reputation. Bad reputation means less applicants. Less applicants means your raid will collapse sooner or later.

  13. #33
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    That also sounds like just an absolute logistical nightmare trying to manage all that. I didn't even have that kind of time when I WAS leading a hardcore raiding guild.

    It's all very nebulous too, when you get down to dealing with the nitty gritty details of a guild of that structure it translates to guaranteed failure.

    Also the entire raiding team having officer chat is probably a bad idea. I guess you could always try to make another channel that's an officer channel but, ugh. That just sounds miserable to have to deal with.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Been there, done that, ended in tears and a guild split.
    This is the point I think you're missing, Star.

    originally you were suggesting "soft-core and hard-core" players can exist in perfect harmony. but... what i don't get is why would you want to play with people you essentially have nothing in common with? that's really the bottom line.


    when I was a GM in wrath, my guild was pretty much what you suggested. and it WAS a logistical nightmare (as Aggy pointed out) because you're trying to appeal to such a large range of the player base. They rarely stay intact, and never really progress.
    Well.. They do sometimes... But those aren't hardcore raiding guilds. They're community oriented guilds, usually very large with a lot of officers and structure, and focus on "community building" above raiding.

    Eventually the people that DO progress and become skilled/motivated don't want to wait around for everyone else to catch up. so you're forced to pick between who you cater to.

    Even those guilds that do maintain the structure you're suggesting; they're absurdly large, primarily because they know their turnover ratio is going to be through the roof.

    Not to mention, ever trying running such a guild? It is a full time job.

    I guess my point here is that I don't see what you want to accomplish.
    Last edited by truculent; 03-13-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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  15. #35
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    And even if you could keep everyone happy, wht if the A-Team is suddenly a tank down (he died of dystentry), and one of the B-Team tanks wants to step; Great for the A-Team, but now the B-Team is pissed off becuase you've nicked their best tank. so say you don't do that, now the A-Team is pissed becuase you have somone who wants to and is capable of raiding with them, but you don't want to piss off the b-team, and further more the B-Team's best tank is pissed becuase he thinks (rightly, or wrongly) that you don't want him in your A-Team or he'll resent that your keeping him in the B-team to keep the B-team together, he's now in the situation that he resents who he's raiding with, and can't raid with who he wants to in the guild, he's either a saint, or super pissed, and super pissed people are not nice people, so if you manage not to lose him to another guild, that raids a time bomb of frustration. so best case scenario you've need to find another tank, worst case scenario you need to find two tanks.

    but you only need 2 tanks to raid so A-team now whats to pinch B-teams remaining tank, which you can either do and basically say "screw you" to concept of having a B-Team, in which case most of the peeps in the b-team will be annoyed, and maybe leave. or you can leave both teams searching for a tank in which case you'll risk raiders from both teams getting frustrated that for 30mins of the 2 hours a week they raid you're pugging a tank whose aweful, and then they go see what their options elsewhere are. so you have to pug even more people tso raiding become even more sketchy.

    TL;DR, Never be a guildmaster.
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  16. #36
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    What bothers us isn't people that try to become better, it's people that go "well I just can't, I won't be better and am happy with this even if I'm only doing 30k dps and omg why aren't people taking me to raids and carrying me and holding my hand."
    that's a straw man. i've been playing this game for years and i've yet to run into anyone who fits that description. the OP certainly didn't resemble it.

    Having multiple raids in the same guild is extremely hard for the guild officers to manage.
    it's not difficult at all; i've had multiple raid teams in my guild since wrath launched. the key is guild rule #1: No Dickheads. once you eliminate them, the rest is easy.

    if you're leading a hardcore guild, then i agree the guild should be full of hardcore raiders and focused on such (i'm defining hardcore as guilds/raiders who treat wow as a 40+ hour endeavor, primarily focused on raid progression). but that's a very small percentage of the wow population. do the rest have to aspire to that as well?

    we definitely don't have anything that approaches a hardcore team, but we have finished up a few raiding metas when they were current content. we also have raid teams that raid previous content as progression for them. none of the things mentioned, including toons moving between groups, has to cause drama if you set it up right.

    star is not missing the point at all; in fact he's making good points, and my guild already uses some of that philosophy. just because you don't raid at the same level as someone doesn't mean you "essentially have nothing in common with" them. you just have to be able to look past your own WoW experience to see it.

    ended in tears
    there's no crying in wow!

    seriously, if people are literally crying about raiding... there's deeper issues that need to be worked out.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    that's a straw man. i've been playing this game for years and i've yet to run into anyone who fits that description. the OP certainly didn't resemble it.
    It wasn't straw man it was hyperbole. And regardless of "30k dps" being an exaggerated number, "low dps that holds the rest of the group back" is the point I was trying to make and those people most definitely DO exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    it's not difficult at all; i've had multiple raid teams in my guild since wrath launched. the key is guild rule #1: No Dickheads. once you eliminate them, the rest is easy.

    if you're leading a hardcore guild, then i agree the guild should be full of hardcore raiders and focused on such (i'm defining hardcore as guilds/raiders who treat wow as a 40+ hour endeavor, primarily focused on raid progression). but that's a very small percentage of the wow population. do the rest have to aspire to that as well?

    we definitely don't have anything that approaches a hardcore team, but we have finished up a few raiding metas when they were current content. we also have raid teams that raid previous content as progression for them. none of the things mentioned, including toons moving between groups, has to cause drama if you set it up right.

    star is not missing the point at all; in fact he's making good points, and my guild already uses some of that philosophy. just because you don't raid at the same level as someone doesn't mean you "essentially have nothing in common with" them. you just have to be able to look past your own WoW experience to see it.
    Except the kind of guild you have and the kind of guild he's describing are two very very very different things. He's talking specifically about a "main raid" that is hardcore with a lot of casual raiders doing other things as well, and trying to farm from the "casual raiders" is where the problems come up. If you have a loose knit guild of people that are all basically casual (and as you say, no-where-near hardcore), then in-between raid groups people generally have the same raiding philosophy, and that's why you don't see the drama.

    What we're talking about is mixing two different raiding philosophies together and that almost always ends poorly. Maybe your guild is some magical unique snowflake that you've managed to stay together so long and never had any drama, but trust me that's not the norm, and it's REALLY hard to maintain that structure in general. We can get into a whole 'nother myriad of reasons why that is and argue more semantics about what is "Casual" and what is "Hardcore". I still maintain you're losing those words incorrectly, mainly because I don't think Hardcore is dependent upon time commitment. Nor do I think "casual" has to relate to how good or bad someone is (or how much time they spend). Hell I know people that have played 40+ hours a week on WoW and never raid, they just make alts and play the economy and farm mats. Not my idea of fun but they like it. I definitely wouldn't call those people hardcore, but they play far more than I ever have.

    I digress though. Look if you can make that kind of guild work then good for you, good luck, more power to ya, but having led (very successful) guilds before and having experience with guilds of that nature, it's not easy.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  18. #38
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    of course, low dps players exist. but people that go "well I just can't, I won't be better and am happy with this even if I'm only doing 30k dps and omg why aren't people taking me to raids and carrying me and holding my hand." is the definition of a straw man. people like that are certainly uncommon or don't exist at all.

    i guess i define hardcore as guilds that push for server firsts, and i think they necessarily raid in a different environment than the rest of the population. we're nothing like that; hell, it took us three nights to get the second normal mode boss down this tier. but based on past experience, we will clear this tier as well as a number of heroics before the next raid comes out.

    i don't have exactly the kind of guild he's describing, but there are similar elements. we do have raiding teams that have vastly different rates of progression. my team always finishes up normals and usually gets significantly into heroics/metas before the next tier comes. over the years, we've had other teams that are similar in progression, and teams that are still working on previous tier normal modes. we often have players in the guild who don't raid at all. and while we don't actively "farm" other teams, players do move around from time to time as different groups fit their playstyle, raid times, etc. and of course i'm not saying there's been never any drama, but it's rare; the last major event i can remember was in the middle of ICC.

    but you are making generalities about the game based on your experiences. you say running this kind of guild is not easy, but i say it's easy in my case. your experience is not my experience. i'm not saying you're wrong, because i take what you're saying at face value. maybe you were surrounded by different people, maybe we have different approaches to managing a guild, maybe i just hand out better fluffy bunnies to my guildies.

    there's 10 million people who play wow, so there's room for LOTS of different types of guild to work.

  19. #39
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    there's 10 million people who play wow, so there's room for LOTS of different types of guild to work.
    ya but people still suck. That's the one variable that makes this uniquely difficult.

    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  20. #40
    people that go "well I just can't, I won't be better and am happy with this even if I'm only doing 30k dps and omg why aren't people taking me to raids and carrying me and holding my hand." is the definition of a straw man. people like that are certainly uncommon or don't exist at all.
    Oh, they're actually pretty common. Now, granted, maybe their conscious thought process isn't quite that specific, but in general the whole "quitter" or "not going to try" attitudes are pretty common. All of the "I play for fun!" or "I have a life!" types that refuse to even look at a general rotation. The guys that are content with, "Well, the boss died!" as a meter for their performance. The Blood DK that refuses to Death Strike because "It uses up all my runes" (yes this was an actual quote). These guys will pop up in LFG/LFR/Trade chat pugs/etc looking for raids to join.

    You even see it in guilds. The guild strugging on normal modes that only puts in 5 attempts on a boss before calling it quits. The guy with awful performance who insists that it's just gear holding him back, if he could just get that ONE more piece...

    Funny thing about WoW, it's a really, really easy game but there's always room for improvement.

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