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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Thunderforged

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Thunderforged

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  2. #2
    This should be a fun thread!

  3. #3
    how about the chance for thunderforged gear increases drop rate as the patch progresses (for example 5% more each week?)

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Yes your ideas are right ... elite fights dropping Thunderforged (or a high probability) makes sense.
    Thuderforged being equivalent to "fully" valor upgraded would be a good idea. No buyers remorse on upgrading a piece only to see a Thunderforged version drop and then having to spend valor again.

    Perhaps a better way to do it would be for them to drop Thunder Forge tokens (or a material) which you can take to the Thunder Forge and have a forge master upgrade your existing items?

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    At this point, the fact the we don't know anything about any Elite Fight is a sign... there wont be elite encounter and gear this time. And maybe the upgrades are only a catch up mechanism in 503.

    The controversial topic is the LFR item level (502), you just bypassed t14 like nothing. This time the 10's and 25's very much agree that this wont make a lot for 25's and screws completionist.

    In the forums I wrote

    Three comments on this:

    Is this a thing?
    I can't see this as a motivation to get in 25 and I doubt it is for my Raid Leader UNLESS there are not enough 10 man raiders so we need to move to 25 to get people. So as a incentive I think it fails.


    Why it has to be RNG based?
    Ok, you want to give a little more incentive to farm and a little more for doing 25 over 10, but why it has to based on chance? couldn't be good old farming? Maybe even RNG but not an absolute 0-1, but more like you need 10 items to get the Thunderforged item, you'll get 0-3 items each week. Like the Motes and essences in DS but with other numbers, so at least you know that you are getting something every kill.


    If you want to give something to the people organizing the raids? Why do you give it to the raiders?
    Set something that marks who is the raid leader in a 25 man, like a raid registering form that you need to fill before creating a raid group and each kill and raiding night that the raid leader participates count towards him (maybe 1-2 officers too), and when they complete the raids give them:
    - a mount
    - an achievement
    - a title
    - a shiny effect on their armor
    - a set of gear for transmog
    - all of the above?


    The only way to make 25 man raids more interesting is making that those capable of organizing have the desire to doing them more than doing 10 man. Make the 10 raid leaders jealous of the 25 raid leaders, make them create the incentive for the raiders, make the 25 man leaders be your army to recover the relevance of this format.

  6. #6
    Make the 10 raid leaders jealous of the 25 raid leaders,
    What could go wrong, right?!

  7. #7
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    Currently, when you get a drop, the tool tip shows the upgrade status with the 0/2. It's possible that the T15 gear will not have that. The entire tier of gear may not be capable of upgrades even when 5.3 drops and the vendor is (presumably) back.

    IF that is the way it plays out, then the TF gear is in effect an alternative to valor upgrading. Just a different implementation that is RNG based instead of "the grind".

    Also, realistically, if 5.3 drops and T16 gear is available, wouldn't it be a "waste" of the limited valor you can earn for the tier if you spent a bunch of valor on T15 gear that you are now actively trying to replace? There is the age old question of if it would be worth it in order to speed progression but is 6 iLvls really going to make that much difference? I mean, 6 iLvls average for the whole raid is significant. Six iLvl for a couple slots probably would not be that noticeable.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  8. #8
    Currently, when you get a drop, the tool tip shows the upgrade status with the 0/2. It's possible that the T15 gear will not have that
    Supposedly the upgraders will be back later in the tier.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by eald View Post
    If you want to give something to the people organizing the raids? Why do you give it to the raiders?
    Set something that marks who is the raid leader in a 25 man, like a raid registering form that you need to fill before creating a raid group and each kill and raiding night that the raid leader participates count towards him (maybe 1-2 officers too), and when they complete the raids give them:
    - a mount
    - an achievement
    - a title
    - a shiny effect on their armor
    - a set of gear for transmog
    - all of the above?


    The only way to make 25 man raids more interesting is making that those capable of organizing have the desire to doing them more than doing 10 man. Make the 10 raid leaders jealous of the 25 raid leaders, make them create the incentive for the raiders, make the 25 man leaders be your army to recover the relevance of this format.
    That's a fine way to kill 25 man raiding, I approve.
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  10. #10
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    The rumors I heard hinted that it would be 5.3 before they came back...IF they came back. Anyways, it's all speculation at this point anyways. I just really dislike the whole idea.

    What does it fix?
    There is a chance that 25 man will be more geared. This would probably play out pretty well since they don't have the same scale of problem with sharded gear. Is that little bit of gear enough to make GMs and officers want to take on the increased management work? Not likely. You may have more raiders who want to do 25s, but not the GMs creating spots for them.
    Short answer: It fixes nothing with any certainty.

    What does it break / make worse?
    Loot drama just added a whole new layer. People wanting to hold off on upgrades so they get a TF level piece first regardless of the rarity, etc. What about off-specs? If the gear is common enough to be an actual incentive to 25s, then the same guy who got a trinket upgrade last week may be soaking up that same trinket this week because it dropped TF. Now those dual role players who heal one fight and dps another or need their OS for whatever reason are much less likely to ever have a functional level of gear. If you are likely to see enough non-TF drops to avoid that, then it's not much incentive for 25s.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    "If you want to give something to the people organizing the raids? Why do you give it to the raiders?
    Set something that marks who is the raid leader in a 25 man, like a raid registering form that you need to fill before creating a raid group and each kill and raiding night that the raid leader participates count towards him (maybe 1-2 officers too), and when they complete the raids give them:
    - a mount
    - an achievement
    - a title
    - a shiny effect on their armor
    - a set of gear for transmog
    - all of the above?"
    That's the complete wrong way to go about fixing it though.

    You shouldn't be having to "bribe" people into 25man raiding who don't want to or can't be bothered to do it.

    There are plenty of people that WANT to do 25man raiding, they're just spread out too much. 3 free realm transfer every 3 months would do far more for 25man raiding than bribing in people who don't really want to do 25man raiding, just because it gives extra gear / cosmetics - they're not going to stick around when they get bored of that.

    Blizzard need to focus less on putting a golden palace at the end of the road, and more on smoothing out the road. The problem with 25mans isn't the reward, it's getting 25 people (and spares) in one place.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    You shouldn't be having to "bribe" people into 25man raiding who don't want to or can't be bothered to do it.
    But it isn't a bribe, the people that don't want to do 25man but ONLY want the cosmetic rewards will try, however in the long run they will give up. The groups that will last are those who have raid leaders that want do it, that will do whatever they need to keep the group running, those who are willing to put the effort, so what you will have is that the cosmetic rewards, not a bribery, that recognize those who did it. I'm not giving a solution that force 25man into every raid leader, I'm trying to give them a bigger incentive to make it happen.

  13. #13
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    The primary effect of this will be to piss off 10 mans who felt they got screwed when 25 man drops were buffed at the begining of the expansion. Now 25s get to gear even faster and evne better than 10 mans.

    I don't know that there's a good way to encourage people to want to herd cats.

  14. #14
    It's just funny that somehow a lack of 25-man raids is being treated as this problem. It's fairly clear which format the players prefer, but for some reason people feel this need to go about lamenting the "death" of 25-man raiding and pitching ideas to force people back into it.

  15. #15
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    i think the best way to go about the thunderforged items and adding to the incentive of 25s would be to make them like the tokens in firelands that were used to up the BoEs.

    say a 5% chance per boss in 10s and 10% chance in 25s, for the boss to drop a thunder token. then make it so you have to use the thunderforge thing on the island so that raiders would have a bit more incentive to do the dailies that are going to be there,

  16. #16
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    It will be interesting to see if any top guilds remain 10 man when this system goes into place. For the average raider I don't think it will matter a whole lot since it's RNG, but the top guilds will be looking to get every single advantage possible.

    Edit: I guess what I mean is that it will be interesting if Paragon remains 10 man. I thought there was more 10 man top guilds than it actually was

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    It's just funny that somehow a lack of 25-man raids is being treated as this problem. It's fairly clear which format the players prefer, but for some reason people feel this need to go about lamenting the "death" of 25-man raiding and pitching ideas to force people back into it.
    I Can't help but wonder if the demise of 25 man raiding was brought on by blizzards actions over the past few years, and if so it's probably good that they are acknowledging that the problem exists....However, is this the solution? or just another band-aid on a gushing wound. /boggle.
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  18. #18
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    Oct 2011
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    Whilst I don't think this idea forces people to raid 25 man, I still dislike it very much. I think anything that causes gear differences is a bad thing.
    Why should 25 man raiders be rewarded for clearing content in 25 man? Its not like the raiders are putting in any extra effort...nor does it take extra skill to play in a 25 man raid. The only persons job which is much more difficult is the raid leaders job and by extension some officers involved with the organizational side of things.. Why should you as a random DPS get rewarded for the hard work the raid leader put in, when you put no extra effort in on your part?
    The reward itself should be the fact you are actually seeing and killing bosses in the raid size you prefer, and there being less RNG for your gear as there is a larger chance your item will appear from the loot table than in a 10 man.

    As somebody who raids both 10 and 25 man, and has to put the same amount of effort into either, I don't personally think 25 mans deserve any extra reward for being a 25 man and I feel people need to move away from that line of thinking.

    That said, I do think 25 man needs help, I just don't think that extra rewards to gear everyone up slightly better is the answer.
    Last edited by Ishau; 01-24-2013 at 03:15 PM.

  19. #19
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    Eald: You're picking this up totally the wrong way. Rewarding the raid leader extra is a whole can of worms you do NOT want to open up.

    I would love to run a 25 man raiding guild. Right now I'm an officer in a 10 man guild because there are no 25 man raiding guilds on my server, and not enough people interested in 25 man raiding. I'd have to migrate off the server to do that. If I would get rewarded more for running a 25 man guild, that still wouldn't encourage any others to join that guild.

    On top of that, there are lots of people currently content with letting others lead, who would then forced to lead the raids themselves to get the reward. IE, 25 people that currently might want to raid together, then suddenly wouldn't, because they want all the others to join their group, rather than the other way around. Or perhaps set up a round robin. And then the raid leader tag is just pointing out whoever is receiving the special bonus this week (which will be messy when you need to use raid extentions). All in all not leaving the desired result at all.

    If Blizzard wants their 25 man raiding back, they should really merge the lower pop servers, so there would be enough people on the same server to raid 25 man with! Or create other ways for people to find each other and play together without having to place big bucks on the table and hope for the best. As Lore described it well, it's the problem of the people finding each other.

    As for the rewards, they're trying to make the rewards so that some of the people that don't care between 10 or 25 man raiding would lean more towards 25 man raiding, while those who really prefer 10 man raiding aren't left in the cold. This could be a good try, but it could use a little more evening it out.

    If Thunderforge would coexist with valor, but not stack, it would be nicer to have the valor upgrades simply be called Thunderforge, rather than having a Thunderforge piece or a 2/2 piece which would lead to the exact same.

    As for Elite, I doubt we'll see them every raid tier. They did it in AQ40, then again in OS. Sporadically. Then when they tried to bring it up a lot, things ended up like Ulduar and it eventually devolved into HC mode. Do we want every boss to have a HC and an Elite mode? That would be nuts.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Ahm, rewarding the leader have works wonders for every industry out there.

    I was thinking that I already addressed the fact that yes, more people will try to lead a 25man than those capable of doing it, and their groups will fail, given the time the raiders will learn to choose their group, wait that already happen, if you don't ask questions in your interview is your fault being with a bad raid leader.

    And two things about the raid form:
    - You can make it so you need months to get enough points to get the rewards, so you can't rotate.
    - You create a raid like you create a guild right now, and when you get into an instance you set which Raid group are you going to give the points (that means you has set your leader and officers) and nobody else will get this points, you can of course set up alt raids, to workaround, anyway, you will have a capable leader setting up a 25man raid.

    About the "I don't want to pay for transfer", I have paid my transfer, mains and alts to raid, because that is what I need to do to play in a group that I feel comfortable playing, have done 10 and 25, lots more 10. Why do you think that this will benefit 25man more? Won't this make the things just more convenient to 10man? What will stop this I-want-to-do-25man-guy to get an easy to handle 10man group in the best server possible (size depending if he want to do gold or to spend, faction and so on).

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