PST Rapid Fire! Round 6

[Thels]

You're right about the ratio being slightly better (17 DPS - 6 Healers is actually slightly worse than 3 DPS - 1 Healer, but considering there are shadowpriests and what not queueing as healer for LFR, it'll work out).

What I meant for the specific dungeons is, for LFR you sign up for Raid X, and your queue is completely separate from Raid Y. For Dungeons you also have people signing up for Dungeon X and others for Dungeon Y, but the vast majority of people will simply sign for a random dungeon, which will fill out the required holes.

Being able to queue for more than 1 LFR at the same time would help. Perhaps not random in that case, but if there's 2-3 LFRs that still drop loot for you, why can't you queue for "whichever of those 3 raids that has a spot the earliest"?



As for the last comment, I'm simply using myself as an example of someone who will stop running LFR once he has all the gear he needs from those instances, so less and less people will keep running them.

[dk2300]

You're right about the ratio being slightly better (17 DPS - 6 Healers is actually slightly worse than 3 DPS - 1 Healer, but considering there are shadowpriests and what not queueing as healer for LFR, it'll work out).

What I meant for the specific dungeons is, for LFR you sign up for Raid X, and your queue is completely separate from Raid Y. For Dungeons you also have people signing up for Dungeon X and others for Dungeon Y, but the vast majority of people will simply sign for a random dungeon, which will fill out the required holes.

Being able to queue for more than 1 LFR at the same time would help. Perhaps not random in that case, but if there's 2-3 LFRs that still drop loot for you, why can't you queue for "whichever of those 3 raids that has a spot the earliest"?

Now thats an interesting and IMO certainly viable idea, a random raidfinder which could be used by the less geared who arent looking for a specific piece yet, and maby with a better valor reward or something to incentivise those that are already geared.

As for the last comment, I'm simply using myself as an example of someone who will stop running LFR once he has all the gear he needs from those instances, so less and less people will keep running them.

Well yea thats certainly true, thats why i was making the comparison to heroics earlier, as the same thign happens there, most people stop running them once they have the gear they need. Thats sort of one of the inherent flaws to the whole matchmaking system though. In real raids people continue to run in raids cause they have a connection to the other raiders who helped them get their gear and possibly a guild motivation to help others build themselves up so you can progress through bosses. But in raidfinder or anything where your matched with people you may never see again, theres very little reason to ever run something once you've gotten everything you can get out of it. I need one more gear piece and then I too will probably just stop running raidfinder as i just dont care about anything it offers me anymore. Is that a detriment to those who still need to run it? probably a little since it lowers the available pool, and that may increase que times, but on the flip side post 5.2 your going to have a much higher chance to get the drops you need as well as much easier access to greater charms. Which means while you may have to wait an hour for a raid compaired to my half an hour, your also going to be (most likely) running much much fewer of them. Not only is their the increased drop rates and charm availability, but new 90's also arent going to be looking to get every single drop out of that tier of raid finder like we are now, theyl just be lookin to hit the minimum ilvel they need to get into the next branch.

[sifuedition]

Well, the sad fact is that you need most (maybe all?) slots to get into 5.2 raid finder. The number I initially heard was 480. Someone in mumble said they read it's been bumped to 486 but I haven't seen the post on that. Additionally, if you are missing 4 piece or weapon or trinkets, you may be running for those even if you can get into 5.2 raid finder because being behind means you will need to be able to show a guild exemplary performance to get into a guild if they think they might need to gear you up. To really catch up on gear now seems like it will likely take the help of a guild.

Also, I'm not sure where you get the "post 5.2 your going to have a much higher chance to get the drops you need". Blizzard has said a 30% increase. It's at 15% now, a 30% increase is 19.5% drop chance. That doesn't seem that significant to me. And no guarantee that it won't be duplicates. I have had the tier helm 6 times now in my ~28 attempts at the sha-touched weapon. Essentially, if you count the elder charms as a week each, I have been trying to get the sha-touched weapon for 7 months with no luck.

I still don't have it yet, but let's play devil's advocate and say I get it tomorrow. Then a 30% increase would imply I could have received it in ~20 weeks instead. Still 5 months. Sure, this may be near a worst case scenario, but that is IMO, unacceptable for an item of that type. This is fundamental to all of the legendary quest line work I've been expected to do, etc. This is also a very bad indicator for what COULD happen and get a toon stuck when you need to try to catch it up.

As to the elder charms, we will have to wait and see. They imply that you will be able to get elder charms directly from some of the quests and the cap will go to 20. I still dislike the implementation of being asked to do SOOO many dailies and have no other source for this kind of item.

For one, not everyone can play in that format of a couple hours every day or most days of the week. My time, due to real life, usually comes in binges. I can often put in just as much time as anyone else, but in a different format. Just because of that, MoP has punished me in terms of rewards. My reputations, gold, and valor have all noticeably suffered. I see no reason to believe that this will not work similar to the cooking reward. 20 a week may be ~3 available per day. Which in my case would usually be only 9 available per week since I can usually only play 3, maybe 4, days a week. I play as many hours as most people in my guild, just a different time format. But, obviously, I'm a second class player now?

For the other part, and I think the more important problem, what if this style of play is not fun for me? Why should there not be options of how to earn the grindy type rewards? I'm not saying hand our raid or even catch-up gear. I'm talking about currency type stuff. Why should I not be able to play in a format I enjoy? If I like group play, then why can't I get currency from 5 mans? Or lfr? Or something other than a limited amount per day from quests? Trying to enforce "one right way to play" will just drive players away. Especially those feeling like they are climbing a mountain to play catch-up in the first place.

[Thels]

I doubt the random LFR works. Say I need gear from 4 LFRs, but I end up in LFR number 5. I might as well just quit the instance and do some dailies than waste an entire hour in there. That would mean the people in there would have to wait a lot longer if half the people constantly leaves at the start.

Instead, being able to queue for multiple LFRs at the same time, but you specify which LFRs you are queueing for would be helpful.



As for heroics, I think more and more people will actually return there. Raiding gives you 640 valor if you kill all bosses. That means you're 360 valor short, probably more. When you were doing LFR too, that would've been another 450 valor too, but that quickly disappears.

Even if you do 45 dailies every week for your lesser charms, that's only 225 valor, so you're some valor short. If you still have a bunch of lesser charms, that means more valor. Doing 1 dungeon and/or 1 scenario per day is a quick way to get some valor in, especially since most people quite had it with all the dailies.



7 months seems an exaggeration, considering the game is barely out for four and a half months. But yeah, the LFR is a crappy catchup meganism, and I honestly can't see Tier 15 LFR requiring 486 ilvl. If you remember that there are no upgrade NPCs, that's practically BiS gear pre-raid, and requires a truckload of valor. 489 in most gear slots from vendor items, 483 from HoF/ToES LFR, which you probably can't enter until after a few weeks, due to it's own high ilvl.

[sifuedition]

7 months is a mathematical expression of it, rather than a temporal one. A week lockout so if you think of it in terms of 1 loot attempt per week, it would equate to 7 months. Obviously, this is only possible because of the charms but that's irrelevant to the fact that it can take 7 months or more worth of drops and not see the item you "need". Bear in mind, I have run all the lfr's each week that I ran any of them (there was a break at Christmas). The weapon is desired because of the way it affects ret dps and the fact I have the legendary gem sitting in my bags rotting but that's not like the last holdout item that just won't drop. But that is about 3 months of all the other bosses and I still have a blue trinket, blue bracers, a poorly itemized belt and the Halloween ring...because I haven't had a drop for those. Still stuck at 475 item level despite all the time invested.

Edit: In that time, the Elegon weapon hasn't dropped either despite it receiving my charms prior to the sha-touched weapon being available.

[dk2300]

Well, the sad fact is that you need most (maybe all?) slots to get into 5.2 raid finder. The number I initially heard was 480. Someone in mumble said they read it's been bumped to 486 but I haven't seen the post on that. Additionally, if you are missing 4 piece or weapon or trinkets, you may be running for those even if you can get into 5.2 raid finder because being behind means you will need to be able to show a guild exemplary performance to get into a guild if they think they might need to gear you up. To really catch up on gear now seems like it will likely take the help of a guild.

well the part that deals with actual guild raiding im not going to comment on as thats much more on an individual basis and not in the realm of what ive been talking about which is simply raid finder progression. As to the ilvel required for geting into the 5.2 raids theres no telling what the final requirement for that will be, weve already seen it fluctuate and the current patch notes dont seem to mention it so id take that to mean its not finalized yet.

Also, I'm not sure where you get the "post 5.2 your going to have a much higher chance to get the drops you need".
Blizzard has said a 30% increase. It's at 15% now, a 30% increase is 19.5% drop chance. That doesn't seem that significant to me. And no guarantee that it won't be duplicates. I have had the tier helm 6 times now in my ~28 attempts at the sha-touched weapon. Essentially, if you count the elder charms as a week each, I have been trying to get the sha-touched weapon for 7 months with no luck.
I still don't have it yet, but let's play devil's advocate and say I get it tomorrow. Then a 30% increase would imply I could have received it in ~20 weeks instead. Still 5 months. Sure, this may be near a worst case scenario, but that is IMO, unacceptable for an item of that type. This is fundamental to all of the legendary quest line work I've been expected to do, etc. This is also a very bad indicator for what COULD happen and get a toon stuck when you need to try to catch it up.

According to
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/822...y_17-1_17_2013 "The chance of getting personal loot in Raid Finder and the chance of a successful bonus roll in Raid Finder have been greatly increased for the 5.0 raids." Now its true i dont know how much "greatly increased" means, and i havent seen that 30% increase that you mentioned. But this is why i said much higher, which to me mean means the same as greatly increased.

As to the elder charms, we will have to wait and see. They imply that you will be able to get elder charms directly from some of the quests and the cap will go to 20. I still dislike the implementation of being asked to do SOOO many dailies and have no other source for this kind of item.

Their also adding lesser charms as rewards from pet battles for level 90 players, while i see that not everyone is going to enjoy those, it does at least create another source outside of dallies for them.

For one, not everyone can play in that format of a couple hours every day or most days of the week. My time, due to real life, usually comes in binges. I can often put in just as much time as anyone else, but in a different format. Just because of that, MoP has punished me in terms of rewards. My reputations, gold, and valor have all noticeably suffered. I see no reason to believe that this will not work similar to the cooking reward. 20 a week may be ~3 available per day. Which in my case would usually be only 9 available per week since I can usually only play 3, maybe 4, days a week. I play as many hours as most people in my guild, just a different time format. But, obviously, I'm a second class player now?

My play time is pretty similar to how you describe yourse, and yes i rarely valor cap and am only revered with 2 factions that grant gear, but i still have a 485 ilevel atm and no i havent gotten very lucky with drops, im wearing 4 valor pieces a few raid finder pieces and one or two pieces that i got lucky on in a pug group. And were only 3 months into the expansion, if they increase drop rates and cut valor prices in half, and add rep to the raid and dungeon finders (which they also said was happening in the notes) then yea i expect people to gear up in about half the time i did, which is about 6 weeks, which i think is reasonable.

For the other part, and I think the more important problem, what if this style of play is not fun for me? Why should there not be options of how to earn the grindy type rewards? I'm not saying hand our raid or even catch-up gear. I'm talking about currency type stuff. Why should I not be able to play in a format I enjoy? If I like group play, then why can't I get currency from 5 mans? Or lfr? Or something other than a limited amount per day from quests? Trying to enforce "one right way to play" will just drive players away. Especially those feeling like they are climbing a mountain to play catch-up in the first place.

By curency i can only asume you mean the charms since you can obviously get valor from dungeons. And tying charm earning into raiding would be completely against the whole point of the system. Which is to encourage raiders to do more than login for raid nights. Nothing is stopping you from playing in the format you enjoy, you have the complete option to ignore dailies and only do the things you like. Is that going to mean your going to gear slower without the charms? yes it is. But it doesn't actually stop you from GETTING anything it just changes how fast you get it. Which seems fair to me, unless what you really saying is why cant the way i want to play also be the most efficient way to get what i want? In which case, its just impossible for blizz to do that for everyone. If you dont want to do certain types of content, than you miss out on the benefits that type of content offers, i fail to see how this is unreasonable. Do you expect to get full pvp gear from dailies? do you expect to get raid gear from scenarios? do you expect to earn valor from pet battles? I certainly expect those answers to be no, Each type of content offers a different type of reward. I think the steps blizz has already taken to give at least one option for the types of rewards is a comment on how they want you to be able to have more freedom to do what you want, but ultimately you cant expect everything to come from everything.

[sifuedition]

As to the grindy stuff, I was referring to this kind of situation:

I play Tue and Wed for about 5 hours each.
I usually play Sat or Sun for about 10 hours.
Every so often, I get to play both Sat and Sun.
I put in about 20 hours per week.

My guildie plays about 3 hours per day almost every day.
He puts in about 20 hours per week.

He is exalted with all factions.
I am revered with a number of factions but only exalted with Tillers.

He valor caps almost every week and therefore has more valor gear and a higher item level. (I'm 477 and he's 486)
I have about the same amount of lfr gear as he does, but due to the format of my time, I don't always valor cap and have less valor gear.

On those binge days, once I have finished the dailies....the rest of the time has MUCH less value to the game when compared to him playing 3 hours per day. This is probably one of the main reasons I don't make more effort to play every Sat AND Sun. It feels like a bad investment of time. In fact, it's almost to the point that I feel like, "if I can't play at least 5 days a week, then I can't keep pace with the game". This is all on top of the fact that I have been an altoholic ever since my main first level capped years ago. Now I don't have a prayer of keeping an alt current and don't even try.

Reputations are important enough that I included that in the "grindy stuff" term. Also, the amount of valor that can be earned from 5 mans or lfr compared to doing dailies every day seems...inadequate. A binge type session like what my weekends can be feels like bicycling downhill in the lowest gear. I'm peddling like hell for very little added momentum.

Edit: I didn't state my point very well. What this is all pointing at is he more easily has all his lesser charms, valor caps, earns more gold and reputation in the same number of hours played. My time becomes so much less efficient for very arbitrary reasons. I don't need "my" playstyle to necessarily be optimal so much as it shouldn't feel like I'm wasting my time.

[dk2300]

ahhhh i see what your talking about now, and i do agree that it is an inherent flaw in the once daily reward system that blizz is curently so infatuated with at the moment. They implement these types of things to encourage people to play every day, but at the same time it makes playing for long stints of time feel less rewarding. I think ive seen lore mention on some of his videos and I agree that theres is a need for some sort of catch up mechanism to allow people who miss a day not to be forever behind. They used to have the 7 times a week moddel instead of the 1 a day every day, thing, and while i understand their reasoning behind doing away with that, but i think they solved the problem that model caused at the cost of re-breaking the thing that it fixed.

There are several things they could probbaly do to ease the pain of those missed days, and they should definitely look into those, but Im not sure if there is any real way to eliminate it altogether. The simple fact is blizzard wants people to play every day instead of in big bursts a couple of times a week (at least outside of raiding). And to that end its in their best interest to keep playing every day as more rewarding than not playing every day. It stinks for those who cant live up to what they want ofcourse, if your interested in things like transmoging and pet battles, then those are things that could reward you more for playing in chunks rather than someone with few hours each day, simply by your ability to run those old raids for the pets and gear or having the time to fly around batling and leveling your pets ect. But if pure player power is your aim then yea theres definitely some room for improvement here.