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Thread: PST Rapid Fire! Round 5

  1. #1

    PST Rapid Fire! Round 5

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Hi Lore,
    When asked what mechanic you would use if you where a raid boss you mentioned you would have to think about it. Ive seen your brawlers guild streams and I am convinced it would be chomp. You do love Bruce, lol

  3. #3
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    Apr 2010
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    Really still disagree with the idea that its practical to gear up to catch up to raiding now. You can get up to 460 pretty easily and one nice thing is that scenarios have made this even easier (especially for dps) but from there to even 470 is a big stretch. Sure for the bleeding edge guilds 460's might be a sufficient ilvl but thats obviously not the rational comparison. I'm not sure where this idea comes in that loot is really very common from other sources - I've been doing LFR and sha with the exception of the first week and maybe 3-4 missed bosses total since then and still have a ton of items left to get on both of my characters. And thats with maxing out valour and rep every week and getting quite a few 489 pieces in slots that would otherwise quite likely still be blues. I guess it really depends on what one considers an appropriate 'catch up time' but given that LFR gearing is a months long process per tier it seems excessive to me when I think of it as something you do in 2,3,4 weeks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    You might just have bad luck, it took me about 3 weeks for my brother and I to get my death knight and his paladin to 470 IL from scratch ( we were leveling tanks for a backup raid team) Only had about 2 or 3 crafted items each. I did have commendations for klaaxi and golden lotus- which helped alot.
    Then again we might have had good luck, anedotal evidence is just that.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ithuriol View Post
    You might just have bad luck, it took me about 3 weeks for my brother and I to get my death knight and his paladin to 470 IL from scratch ( we were leveling tanks for a backup raid team) Only had about 2 or 3 crafted items each. I did have commendations for klaaxi and golden lotus- which helped alot.
    Then again we might have had good luck, anedotal evidence is just that.
    Three weeks with some gold to get to 470 to start on the pre-raid LFR's seems about right. After that its a couple months building up to what guilds/pugs would use for raiding (again, not referring to the levels required by consistent uberguilds but the much higher practical levels for the rest of us). To me, that seems like quite a bit already and its only going to be more significant in future tiers.

  6. #6
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    Nov 2012
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    At 470 you can totally start doing mogushan normals though- is that not what you mean by raiding?
    I wouldn't expect to do any heroics without at least farming normal for a week or two, but I'm a filthy casual, lol.

  7. #7
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    Our first Vashj kill actually worked the same way; the last person died, and then a dot tick (no one remembers whether it was Moonfire or SW:P, but it was from a healer in either event) got the killing blow just before she reset.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawnos View Post
    Three weeks with some gold to get to 470 to start on the pre-raid LFR's seems about right. After that its a couple months building up to what guilds/pugs would use for raiding (again, not referring to the levels required by consistent uberguilds but the much higher practical levels for the rest of us). To me, that seems like quite a bit already and its only going to be more significant in future tiers.
    Honestly, the problem here is not that you're undergeared for MSV. You can easily enter there in full blues and down some bosses. Any LFR, Valor items and Epic craftables are just a bonus.

    The problem is that the pug's raid leader has to pick between "Joe I don't know with ilvl 465" and "Joe I don't know with ilvl 475". If there's nothing else that sets you apart, obviously, the raid leader will take the ilvl 475 person, because he has nothing else to go on.

    Honestly, I do the same if we're 1-2 people short from our guildrun. If I don't know any of them, I check the ilvls first, then start with the highest ilvl to see if he's doing the stuff right. Gearing correctly, taking the effort to enchant, gem and reforge, etc... If I don't like what I see I move to the next highest ilvl, but once I found someone, I'm not going to scroll down the lower ilvls.

    Naturally, there are other factors that are more important than ilvl, such as raid experience. Having someone along who knows the fights is obviously helpful.

  9. #9
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    Nov 2012
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    But where else would you want to get that raid gear other then from raiding? If I'm a "joe you don't know", shouldn't I look for a brand new team that hasn't ever done the fights before, or are just starting to clear some bits of MGV, not expect to jump into a raid team that already has the entry level on farm? (Unless I know someone on the team, but then I'm not an unknown factor and a slightly lower IL shouldn't matter as much).

  10. #10
    I agree with Lore that the daily/rep grinds are now not really necessary and that there's enough catch up potential, right now. You could do nothing but farm heroics and get to 471 ilevel if you have enough time to do it through just upgrading blues (though it would take a ridiculous amount of justice grinding to do so, they could probably stand to reduce the price to upgrade blues some, it would only speed up the process without impacting the top end at all). And at 471 not only can you do all of the tier 14 LFRs, but you should also not really have that much trouble finding normal mode pugs or a guild or w/e. And that's not factoring in crafted items, valor rewards, LFR, etc.

    Sure you're going to have the issue of groups preferring a higher ilevel pug over a lower ilevel pug, but that is always going to happen and there's nothing you can do about it. You cannot realistically expect to be able to just have a "quick catchup" where you're now tied or higher ilevel than the people that have been gearing up longer than you.

    The issue I see is with the idea going forward that LFR is supposed to somehow take the place of higher tier 5mans from previous expansions as the catchup method for later raid tiers. If the idea is that we're supposed to do 5mans to gear up for T14-LFR, and then do that to gear up for T15-LFR and do that in order to gear up for T16-LFR, and that to gear up for T16 normals, then that is still going to take several months and is by no means anything resembling a "catchup" mechanic. Doing 5mans to get to T14-LFR works fine, you can do that in a week or even less if you really try (and have the time), but after that the jump from T14-LFR to T15-LFR is going to take several weeks or months, simply because you only get one shot per week at loot from each boss. We don't know what the ilevel requirement for T15-LFR will be, but if we're supposed to be able to jump from T14-LFR to it then it'll probably be something like 480 ilevel (it couldn't be much higher since HoF and ToES lfr is only 483 gear), so that'd be going from about 471 to 480 using just LFR. 10 ilevels would take around 17 drops, and given that I think LFR has about a 15% drop chance and 16 bosses that's an average of 2.4 drops per week, which is around 7 weeks on average, assuming that all of those drops are for different slots. And then if we assume you have to do the same thing to go from T15-LFR to T16-LFR, then you're again looking at another ~2months of gearing (possibly more since there's only 12 bosses in T15 instead of the 16 in T14). So that's on the order of 4 months of "catchup" before you can even do T16-LFR, let alone if you need to then run that for a while before you're ready for T16 normals.

    Basically using LFR as a "catchup" mechanic really isn't any different than the TBC system. Sure it removes the obligation for guilds to have to go and run new recruits/alts through all the previous tiers to get them ready, but it's still going to take just as long for those new recruits/alts to get caught up. Actually it'll probably take longer for them to get caught up since at least with the TBC system, if a guild was running someone through the previous tiers they'd be able to funnel all the drops to that recruit, letting them gear up faster, while in LFR that's not possible.

    Even with the Valor upgrade system in place that's really not going to help all that much since all that does is give you an average increase of 1/3 of an ilevel per week which maybe reduces the 7 weeks of T14-LFR down to 6 weeks, 5 if you're lucky. I like the valor upgrade system as a form of minor gear progression within a current tier but it's by no means a major factor for catching up on a fresh toon.

    They will either need to substantially increase the drop rate in previous LFR tiers or remove the weekly lootlock on previous LFR tiers if they want LFR to be the new catchup mechanic. Otherwise they're going to have to break down and just give us epic level 5mans to farm to skip over older tiers.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    6
    LEAVE THE POOR DOG ALONE! Srsly gonna have to call betty white and the rest of Peta on you for dog abuse!

    My main problem is if they just bump the LFR teir 14 to boost you threw with higher % drops.. i just hope it doesnt run the Sha Crystal market 600g a pop on my server is kinda nice. Tho i also just hope that the Que times dont end up 2hrs for dps and 4hrs as a tank.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Since nobody else linked it...

    http://www.amazon.com/Big-Mouth-Toys.../dp/B002SQG4TU

    I might get one, myself.

  13. #13
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    Apr 2010
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    220
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithuriol View Post
    But where else would you want to get that raid gear other then from raiding? If I'm a "joe you don't know", shouldn't I look for a brand new team that hasn't ever done the fights before, or are just starting to clear some bits of MGV, not expect to jump into a raid team that already has the entry level on farm? (Unless I know someone on the team, but then I'm not an unknown factor and a slightly lower IL shouldn't matter as much).
    If raids were cross-realm maybe. The odds of 10-11 joes who all want to start at the same time, on the same server, on the same faction, on the same schedule (this one is huge for the typical person trying to get back into raiding with the vast majority of players simply not compatible because of scheduling) is extremely low. Adding a single joe to an existing group or pug is the much more likely scenario.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    Oklahoma
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    Another issue I've always perceived with the lack of catch-up mechanisms is that without them, if you start late, you will likely always be behind.

    If you started MoP at release and it takes you 6 months to clear the tier and content is being released every 6 months, why do we suppose someone who started late and has to play with others who are at the same "progression" are going to clear it any faster to catch-up? The odds are, finding any group at the same level of progression as you once you are behind will be a mix of other players who started late with a heavy portion of players who might not be quite good enough to stay current on progression and players who are just now getting into raiding. So if the content cycle is 6 months and I start 4-6 months late, I will probably not ever luck into that group who is mostly late starters and good enough to progress faster than normal and actually catch up. For one, that would be an exceptional group to begin with it would seem. For anther, if that group did exist, what are the odds it is on my server, my faction and raids at times that coordinate with my schedule? I might as well not resub and just wait for the next xpac. I'm going to miss content all together most likely and never be raiding the tier that is considered relevant.

    We all know the importance most players place on raiding the current tier. Everyone who is not is a "noob" "scrub" "loser". But we want a system that almost ensures that if you start late for any reason, you are doomed to irrelevance for the rest/most of the xpac? Seems artificially elitist IMO. I understand MMOs have a strong reliance on time invested, but should that really be so significant it dwarfs all other factors? I would rather have a system that treats skill as the dominant factor with time invested being a moderately distant second.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    29
    Some people seem to be better at gearing fast. Sure there is luck in drops but some of us math out and research what we need and where to get it and are prepared to do some grind. I got an alt to 90 and was VP capped and in LFR MSV the same week. LFR MSV next week, with vp capping and by week 3 (last week) made it to LFR TES to get my Sha touched weapon using an elder charm. The toon is now higher geared than guildees who want to raid and who have been 90 for months.
    Catch up gearing is always possible but not always easy ... 4.3 with its 378 dungeon gear and LFR made it easy and perhaps they will do that again near the end of the expansion.

  16. #16
    Sifuedition: I entirely agree, that's pretty much exactly the same thing that Lore brings up from time to time regarding the end of TBC with raiding guilds dieing off and having to cannibalize eachother because as individual raiders stopped raiding for one reason or another over the course of the expansion there were no new raiders to take their spots because it was just not feasible to be able to catch up unless a guild took a few weeks or months out of their schedule to run a new recruit through all the previous tiers to catch them up.

    And that's almost definitely the reason for the currency vendors in Wrath, which allowed you to be able to farm 5mans and at least get up to the gear level of the previous tier. Just enough that you could be ready to start walking into the current tier after only a couple weeks of catchup. Also, the newer 5mans added towards the end of Wrath (toc and the frozen halls) also dropped better loot as another source to help you catch up if you started late. And then Cataclysm basically did the same thing with a bit of a facelift, moving the previous tier's valor gear to justice points so that you could just farm heroics to get previous-tier items, as well as the new 5mans added in 4.1 and 4.3 being additional sources of getting geared faster than was original possible.

    But LFR, at least in its current form, is not a good candidate for a new form of catch-up. If we look back to 4.3 and DS when they added LFR, sure you could level a fresh toon and have it geared for normal modes within 2 or 3 weeks, but that was because we could farm 378 gear through justice points and 5mans, not because LFR was added. LFR just doesn't have the ability to give out gear fast enough to take their place.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    54
    I think this is the rapid fire you mentioned them possibly increasing drop rates for tier 14 LFR in 5.2; and sure enough, you called it right as they've just announced they're doing so.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    50
    How can people only just be starting to use Hand of Purity?
    It is so so good.
    Been very useful on Bladelord and AmberShaper, but even on the first fight in Vaults (Stoneguard) it was pretty decent.

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