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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Is LFR Dropping Enough Loot?

  1. #41
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    My suggestion would be to give a boost per dropless run. RNG that drops the wrong loot, oh whell that is life. If you do not get a drop, then a bonus of 2-5% would at least make sure SOMETHING drops every 5 runs, definately after 10....... I would also say that loot could be swapped to alts on the account with in a 24 hour period........

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by worgick View Post
    My suggestion would be to give a boost per dropless run. RNG that drops the wrong loot, oh whell that is life. If you do not get a drop, then a bonus of 2-5% would at least make sure SOMETHING drops every 5 runs, definately after 10....... I would also say that loot could be swapped to alts on the account with in a 24 hour period........
    I've advocated solutions like this since well before WoW existed (Everquest RNG put WOW's to shame). Nobody ever seems to use it and I don't know why. You retain some aspect of the randomness that some people seem to like while mitigating the most egregious streaks of bad luck.

  3. #43
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    RNG is cruel and fickle bitch.

  4. #44
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    Perhaps a stacking buff somewhat similar to Nephalim Valor (sp) in Diablo 3. Make it so that you get 1% extra chance for loot for each boss kill, and the buff does not expire until you get loot, then it would reset. Just throwing out silly ideas, not anything ready for implementation at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  5. #45
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    I would love to see the majority of loot have a progressive odds system, rather than a flat drop rate. It make sense that the more one is willing to try for something, the more likely it should be to drop. If it were feasible for Blizzard to code such a system, what a much better route than raw rng would that make?!

    Of course there could still be some vanity items and mounts like the Ashes of Alar that have a fixed extremly low drop rate, to maintain their rarety, but the majority of other items and gear are meant to be obtained by many players, so why not reward players for their diligence and perseverence?

    The only thing I could think of is that it would be a nightmare of coding and a huge influx of variables for programmers to keep track of in some sort of database. The info could not be kept in the WTF folder or anything like that, or someone would find a way to edit their odds. It would have to be kept secure. Oh well

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    I am afraid that you are just plain wrong and beliefs don't come into it. It is not about "assumptions" but rather "probabilities". I have already acknowledged that a "worse case scenario" random group would be no better than the hijacked group, the issue comes down to how probable that "worse case" random group is.

    I hardly think it is a leap of faith to assume that a, the random player might not need the item and b, they won't need on it.

    Unless the random guy has so far won nothing at all from RF then clearly there will be items they no longer need. There were a few individuals who continued to need on "unneeded" items for the purposes of using them as a bargaining chip for trading later but that was always considered socially unacceptable and the majority didn't do it.
    .
    You tell me not to assume, but then you assume. You're probablilites are just self serving opinions and, as you admit, assumptions.

  7. #47
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    I like how you do statistics with 2 samples Lore almost as good as your math

    LFR feels more like a lottery atm where you need to get real lucky to get something useful. While I appreciate that they removed any loot drama it just doesn't feel worthwhile to do. It's mostly a feeling and not fact (did get 1 useful item) but I welcome any improvements to the system

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    You tell me not to assume, but then you assume. You're probablilites are just self serving opinions and, as you admit, assumptions.
    I am afraid that type of web forum silliness will only fly on the official forums.

    There are assumptions and then are assumptions. There is the assumption that the sun will rise tomorrow morning and then there is the assumption that the world is flat. Unfortunately you are humiliating yourself in public by opting for the latter in the face of all common sense.

    The myth you are attempting to perpetuate requires that all the random members of the group do not have a single item from RF or VP already! Come on, seriously? Maybe in week one but from that point on the odds diminish dramatically.

    We all know that it is "theoretically" possible for a group to be formed where no one has a single RF item but statistically speaking that would be at incredibly long odds. A bit like the odds of an RF boss giving all 25 players loot - it can happen but it is highly unlikely. The probability is that you will almost certainly receive random players with a number of RF items or superior VP items already equipped. If you don't believe me join RF now and start inspecting everyone. Get your friends and guildies to join different groups. Do it every week. Tell us how many groups you find where no one has a single RF item or superior VP item already.

    I do wonder why you insist on flying in the face of such long odds and flogging a dead horse.

    Your post history reveals an idealogical dislike of the RF mode and access to raid content being granted to the majority.

    I suspect that your denial of the statical probabilities might have something to do with that. So the question is, what is your motivation?

    Are you someone that dislikes being "forced" into RF and wishes to perpetuate "the loot collusion isn't bad for you" myth in the hope that gullible players will believe it and request its return? Presumably that would allow you to gather your items and remove the need to do it far sooner?

    Or do you simply wish to make RF as unpleasant, unattractive and unrewarding option as possible in the hope that it will fail? No chance of that happening now I am afraid. You might as well join your like minded buddies on the official forums and start trolling with the old "RF shouldn't drop loot as it is only about seeing the content" comments.

    I suggest your best bet would be to learn about the difference between an opinion, an assumption and statistical probabilities/odds. They are similar but with subtle differences.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    Your post history reveals an idealogical dislike of the RF mode and access to raid content being granted to the majority.
    Wow, you've never really read my posts, I like RF and have so stated.

    So you've gone from unsupported argments (you know hundreds of thousands of players) to the death throws argument of ad hominem attacks. Bravo.

    You have demonstrated nothing, you're using opinion and assumption and think you're presenting actual probablilties. Assumptions aren't assumptions if you use them, then their facts; okay. Your arguments are based on your personal observations, just as are mine.

    I believe that loot collusion as you call it is not a bad thing and I have no issues with it because it had 0 effect on my winning or losing a dice roll. I roll against 5 people I have a 20% chance of winning whether or not those 4 others know each other or not. That's pure fact no more no less. And I do not believe that the 4 friends would have been replaced by 0 other people rolling there by giving me free loot. It's more likely than not that those 4 would have been replaced by 4 others rolling against me, the game population is too big for that not be the probablilty. But I think you see the game world as containing the far few players than it really does.

    You make all these assumptions, wrong headed I might add, about my being "forced into lfr", I'm not forced to do anything and have argued in the past that raiders are not forced to do anything, if you don't like doing it don't play. However, your arguments have a tendency to paint people as you wish them to be in order to support your unsupportable conculusions.

    In any event, I liked the old loot system, I found nothing unfair about it whatsoever, people used it within the rules of the game and the rules trump some amorphus and self-serving idea of what's socially acceptable. Blizzard decided to change the rules for loot in the new lfr becuase gearing was to fast when people helped each other and that's the system we play within. So be it.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post

    I believe that loot collusion as you call it is not a bad thing and I have no issues with it because it had 0 effect on my winning or losing a dice roll. I roll against 5 people I have a 20% chance of winning whether or not those 4 others know each other or not. That's pure fact no more no less.
    Web forum stereotype number 37.

    The guy that uses stamina to keep repeating a falsehood again and again until other posters give up, leaving the point uncontested.

    I can't be bothered wasting my time repeatedly correcting these errors as in my experience it has always been in vain and those perpetuating the myths have more staying power than me.

    I have told you what the conditions need to be for your statement to be true - that being all the replacement "random" players not having any RF or VP gear and therefore clicking Need on all the items as the loot collusion team members would.

    If those conditions exist then you are 100% correct that your win chance remains the same.

    Clearly I am banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain to you the likelihood of the conditions occurring.

    So if you feel that your loot chance remains the same then congratulations my friend. If you feel it is fair then good for you. Happy looting and may the gods of RNG smile upon you.

  11. #51
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    I think the old system was far more open to abuse. If I queued on my arms warrior, and thought the tank was being a dick i could roll against him on a shield and there's nothing to stop me. Hell I could tank on my pally and ninja healing gear if i was so inclined despite being prot/ret. I've never healed, and have no inclination to do so. I think the fact that the new system is spec based is a lot better, if they combined the loot tables to include our current offspecs it would be ideal, people could queue as either their best spec and thus make LFRs easier or as the spec with the faster queue times thus shortening everyone's queue times.

    What is the point of LFR? to gear up? if so then you already have the gear needed to get into normal modes. and you can get better gear from valour/crafting for most slots anyway
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I think the old system was far more open to abuse. If I queued on my arms warrior, and thought the tank was being a dick i could roll against him on a shield and there's nothing to stop me. Hell I could tank on my pally and ninja healing gear if i was so inclined despite being prot/ret. I've never healed, and have no inclination to do so. I think the fact that the new system is spec based is a lot better, if they combined the loot tables to include our current offspecs it would be ideal, people could queue as either their best spec and thus make LFRs easier or as the spec with the faster queue times thus shortening everyone's queue times.

    What is the point of LFR? to gear up? if so then you already have the gear needed to get into normal modes. and you can get better gear from valour/crafting for most slots anyway
    I agree with the offspec idea. Letting you choose before you enter the spec you want to have a chance at.

    The old way checked role, you if you went in as plate dps you couldn't roll on plate tank gear. If you were ret you could roll on certain healing gear such as the neck or the shield with spirit because of Ele shammies. What was fun was going in as Boomkin and being able to roll on agility leather or the polearm off DW for the bear set.

  13. #53
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    At around 1:10 "So if you were to look at the average between the two characters, and say: If one of them is in one end of the spectrum and the other is in the other end of the spectrum, then on average, yeah, probably speaking in statistics, probably I think enough loot is actually dropping"

    DUDE!!!! You have 2 (!) datapoints.. Dont talk "statistics" with 2 datapoints please that just makes you look stupid!

  14. #54
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    The current loot system in LFR is so far and away superior to the Dragon Soul LFR NEED EVERYTHING ALWAYS system that I can't even begin to say. I don't miss for one moment having to count the number of rogues, death knights, mages and druids in the raid before deciding if I was gonna stick with that particular LFR. I can also do without the meager benefits of whatever schadenfreude that came from watching loot drama since it really only served to slow things down. Now I either won my invisible and immediate loot role/s or I didn't; let's move to the next boss.

    I think the issues that people are having with it stem from two sources. First, people still need to get used to fact that they aren't rolling against anyone else. The loot and the role are yours and yours alone. Just because I won some bracers I don't need, doesn't mean some else didn't. This is the only circumstance in the game in which this happens, so I understand not everyone groks it

    I see complaints about getting duplicate items this way but I chalk that up to RNG. Looking over the tables for my spec, most bosses have only 1 or 2 items I might need, so the odds are good I'll get the one I want. Exactly one boss has 4 items, and a handful have 3. Even so, I'll take those odds.

    The other factor comes from the fact that getting over the hump to iLevel 470 takes some luck (or rep items). If all you're doing is Mogu'Shan every week, then it's possible get stuck there until you win an item or two. My alt was in heroics the moment I hit 90, LFR Mogu'Shan a day later, but I was stuck in the 460s for more than two weeks while I took my Golden Lotus medicine.

    That said, from what I've observerd, once you are able to do all 5 LFRs, plus the Sha, plus whatever Charms you burn gearing comes pretty fast.

    My main is very nearly done with LFR, so I'm just queuing for a couple wings. I feel like there is plenty enough to do without having to keep running MSV LFR. Should they punch up the gold bag? What could they possibly put in the bag that people won't complain about? Charms? Flasks? Ponies? I suppose some extra valor might be nice, since almost no one in my little guild is valor capping. However, I think 90 valor for 3 or 4 bosses is decent enough compared to everything else.

    My answer to the question posed in your title: Yes. Yes, it is.
    Last edited by ChampStanley; 12-17-2012 at 03:53 AM.

  15. #55
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    I have to admit, this is one of two episodes where I had to stop after watching 1/3 of it.

    You're trying to compare normal / heroic raiding to LFR - Mistake!

    You're analogy is that when a person in a guild run wins an item you feel good about it, because you know it benefits the entire team on progression.., essentially you're trying to compare apples and oranges.
    1. There's no progression in LFR
    2. 50%+ of the players in LFR wouldn't be able to take Stone Guards on normal mode judging by awareness > meters
    3. What friends in LFR?- you might be grouped with a few, but see point 1.
    (( I could add more points, but you know them already ))

    There needs to be some kind of indicator that loot dropped from a boss, really?- given the nature of LFR it'll lead to more mouth breathing, and people will be spamming the public forums even more then they currently do about how shitty the system is, because they don't get exactly what they want every single week.

    Let me take myself as an example in Firelands, our guild which was 10m at that time saw the Kitty staff of Domo drop in the first reset there, and it went to our main feral at that point.., it didn't drop again til I had 4p tier from Dragon Soul and the normal staff from Dw.

    Did it bother me?- not the slightest, because it wasn't / isn't required to progress in any way, and the same thing applies to LFR (or even normal and heroic modes)
    90% of the players in LFR only "need" the items because they stink (There, I called it!), when I say stink it covers a broad spectrum, no bothering to learn their class, not bothering to learn the fights, not bothering to gem or enchant gear, but the absolute worst thing.., you can try and act nice and explain bosses, and the wast majority of them wouldn't be paying attention because it's tuned for a 110% win guarantee provided you can hit your keyboard in any random order.

    I am sorry Lore, but you're generally pretty well informed and at times spot on with you're marmots, but this one I feel you've tilted into the lane where blizzard was last expansion.
    Advocating features should promote for a worse environment, if anything these players should learn the hard way, that loot tables aren't tailored to provide weekly upgrades, and that if you want something in the game you set goals and work towards them!

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    The old way checked role, you if you went in as plate dps you couldn't roll on plate tank gear.
    Yes, yes you could, and vice versa, I rolled on gurthalak as prot and the tanky bracers from zon'ozz as arms.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    Advocating features should promote for a worse environment, if anything these players should learn the hard way, that loot tables aren't tailored to provide weekly upgrades, and that if you want something in the game you set goals and work towards them!
    There is no way to "work" for something that is pure RNG and a low probability at that. That is the point of this video. You can be as diligent as you want about running LFR every week and "doing it right" by whatever standards you want. None of that increases your chances of winning the piece you want/need. It's hard to call it "earning" it when some schlub who can't buy a clue might win it the first time in and you can do everything right and not get it until the next tier drops.

    That's not to say that everyone should be guaranteed to get everything before the next tier. I do feel that they are defeating the purpose though if there is a possibility that someone completing LFR every week might end the tier and not have at least a minimal amount of gear. Whether that's guaranteeing that you at least complete the tier bonus or whatever standard is "enough" gear, there should be some sort of fall-back to prevent the feature from feeling "worthless" to anyone. I know that I had some toons that couldn't complete a 4 piece bonus in DS LFR despite going every week for months. I eventually quit running those toons because it felt like wasted time. Unless you don't need the gear, LFR should not feel like wasted time.

    Personally, I really don't care if it's a stacking drop rate buff or a currency system, but I do feel that there should be some kind of accumulation that you are "working" for. I like the idea that even if RNG hates me, by the end of the tier I can guarantee I have at least this tier's four piece bonus going into next tier. Maybe have just the five LFR tier pieces available for a "ooh poor me" currency that you can just earn enough to buy four/five pieces if you run almost every week of that tier. You'd be better served if you can get them as drops and use them earlier in the tier, but you have a way to KNOW that if you stick with it, you will get at least that minimum amount of gear. Then it shouldn't feel like wasted time to even the unluckiest person.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Yes, yes you could, and vice versa, I rolled on gurthalak as prot and the tanky bracers from zon'ozz as arms.
    You could do Gurthalak as prot with the bonus becuase of DKs, that was always one of the sources of angst, just as DK tanks could roll on Soul Drinker with the bonus because of prot warriors and pallies.

    As for the Zon'ooz tank bracers, I think we're confusing the ability to roll with the ability to get the bonus. The old system bonus was based on the role you chose when you qued. You could roll on those bracers as arms but you would not get the bonus, the tank would. If you had two druid tanks or if the plate tanks didn't roll, then it would have just been a roll among the plate wearers with no bonus.

    I did pick up a couple os pieces this way.

    The tanks are really the ones who kind of get screwed in the new system. It used to be great tanking on a plate wearer with a druid as the other tank, all tank plate went to the plate tank.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banzhe View Post
    I have to admit, this is one of two episodes where I had to stop after watching 1/3 of it.

    You're trying to compare normal / heroic raiding to LFR - Mistake!

    You're analogy is that when a person in a guild run wins an item you feel good about it, because you know it benefits the entire team on progression.., essentially you're trying to compare apples and oranges.
    1. There's no progression in LFR
    2. 50%+ of the players in LFR wouldn't be able to take Stone Guards on normal mode judging by awareness > meters
    3. What friends in LFR?- you might be grouped with a few, but see point 1.
    (( I could add more points, but you know them already ))

    There needs to be some kind of indicator that loot dropped from a boss, really?- given the nature of LFR it'll lead to more mouth breathing, and people will be spamming the public forums even more then they currently do about how shitty the system is, because they don't get exactly what they want every single week.

    Let me take myself as an example in Firelands, our guild which was 10m at that time saw the Kitty staff of Domo drop in the first reset there, and it went to our main feral at that point.., it didn't drop again til I had 4p tier from Dragon Soul and the normal staff from Dw.

    Did it bother me?- not the slightest, because it wasn't / isn't required to progress in any way, and the same thing applies to LFR (or even normal and heroic modes)
    90% of the players in LFR only "need" the items because they stink (There, I called it!), when I say stink it covers a broad spectrum, no bothering to learn their class, not bothering to learn the fights, not bothering to gem or enchant gear, but the absolute worst thing.., you can try and act nice and explain bosses, and the wast majority of them wouldn't be paying attention because it's tuned for a 110% win guarantee provided you can hit your keyboard in any random order.

    I am sorry Lore, but you're generally pretty well informed and at times spot on with you're marmots, but this one I feel you've tilted into the lane where blizzard was last expansion.
    Advocating features should promote for a worse environment, if anything these players should learn the hard way, that loot tables aren't tailored to provide weekly upgrades, and that if you want something in the game you set goals and work towards them!
    I think you got side tracked spewing hatred at RF players whilst lacking any understanding of the problems associated with balancing content where groups are formed randomly.

    Pray tell us how you work towards the set goals in RF? The encounters are only as difficult or can only be tuned as difficult as your 24 randomly assigned team mates can handle. It is impossible to make people "work" in RF because the grouping system has limitations and cannot guarantee the quality of the players assigned to your group. That leads to the "lowest common denominator" tuning effect. 96% of your groups capability is determined at random. You as an individual are but 4%.

    What work exactly do you require of them? Randomly rolling a dice for five months instead of four months doesn't really constitute additional "work"? Or do you want them to die more often purely because RNG assigned them players with poor outputs? Success or failure would simply come down to a dice roll when the group is formed.

    Don't forget that RF players already receive lower ilevel loot than Normal/HC modes. Indeed they are frequently awarded lower quality gear than players can earn from running daily quests - which themselves are hardly "work" (unless you go AFK you can't fail) but rather pure time sink.

    You are also playing a strawman more befitting of the official forums - no one in RF specifically demanded weekly rewards although fixed roster groups DO receive weekly rewards for the reasons Lore mentioned.....an upgrade for a team mate is almost as good as an upgrade for you.

    If you had watched all of Lores video you would see that the issue is that in fixed roster groups your win chance increases over time where as in the RF system it does not. That is the problem that MIGHT need addressing.

    Your kitty staff point was an irrelevance. There will always be bad RNG streaks under either system but the chance of those streaks occurring reduces over time in fixed roster groups but not in RF. I don't think you have fully grasped the issue?

    I will say it again - the issue in RF is that it lacks features of fixed roster groups - those being a, improving odds over time and b, adequate consolation prizes to keep players motivated. Of course if players keep turning up each week to run it then I don't see the issue. If we see a decline in numbers then that is the time to start addressing it. Aside from complaints on the forums I am not sure there is any evidence of players becoming demotivated and quitting but who knows what Blizzards internal numbers show.

    I am not sure promoting a worse environment for the vast overwhelming majority of the players that use the content is a particularly good idea from the business perspective either. The irony of course is that the personal win chance over time​ (say over a tier) in RF is already worse than it is in fixed roster groups plus there is no consolation prize of seeing friends gear up.

    So it is already worse. Does that make you feel better?

    I do agree that an indicator of who won what from a boss is a BAD idea though.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post

    Your kitty staff point was an irrelevance. There will always be bad RNG streaks under either system but the chance of those streaks occurring reduces over time in fixed roster groups but not in RF. I don't think you have fully grasped the issue?
    This is dead wrong. A fixed group has absolutely no effect whatsoever on what items drop off a boss. A fixed group will increase your chance that you can win the item you want, since others in the group may already have it; but the drop chance has nothing to do with fixed or random group.

    And since the drop chance is constant and statistically independent from previous drops from that boss, it's the gamblers fallacy to believe that if the boss hasn't dropped your item 10 weeks in a row that the chances of it dropping are increased in week 11. If the chance that an item will drop is statistically independent, as WoW RNG is, then a 2% chance in week one, is a 2% again next week and exactly 2% the week after and so on.

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