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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Are We Too Smart for MMOs?

  1. #21
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    Not necessarily. There are ways to indicate your performance without making them able to be compared across specs and classes. Take for example Skyrim, there are no floating numbers but you still know if you are good or bad at the game.
    Let us assume you are the raid leader of a ten man raid that is progressing on a new Patchwerk boss. Furthermore, we shall assume that the tanks are doing zero damage (because tank dps versus dps dps is hard to quantify) and are meant to do zero damage, same for healers. The raid's damage therefore comes from the 6 dps. You are getting the boss to 20% health when he hard-enrages and wipes you. How do you propose you, as the hypothetical raid leader, finds out who is slacking and holding the raid back (or if the entire raid needs to step it up, and by how much) if you cannot find out how much damage each player did to the boss?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormspeaker View Post
    There are ways to indicate your performance without making them able to be compared across specs and classes. Take for example Skyrim, there are no floating numbers but you still know if you are good or bad at the game.
    You don't know​, you think. There is a very big difference. If you want to measure something, anything, you need some kind of metrics. The only way to establish such a standard is at some point, math needs to be used. Otherwise, you're just debating opinions.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Let us assume you are the raid leader of a ten man raid that is progressing on a new Patchwerk boss. Furthermore, we shall assume that the tanks are doing zero damage (because tank dps versus dps dps is hard to quantify) and are meant to do zero damage, same for healers. The raid's damage therefore comes from the 6 dps. You are getting the boss to 20% health when he hard-enrages and wipes you. How do you propose you, as the hypothetical raid leader, finds out who is slacking and holding the raid back (or if the entire raid needs to step it up, and by how much) if you cannot find out how much damage each player did to the boss?
    Therein lies the problem. WoW can't lose the numbers without changing what it means to be WoW. You need to have numbers because gear-check/tank&spank type bosses like Patchwerk necessitate doing X number of points of damage over Y number of seconds in order to win.

    The focus of the WoW raiding playerbase on numbers is a direct result of WoW's reliance on those types of mechanics.

    But, what if instead of seeing:

    SomeRandomRogue hits Patchwerk for 198,945 damage
    SomeOtherRogue hit Patchwerk for 98,998 damage
    TheTankLOL hits Patchwerk for 24,987 damage

    you saw:

    SomeRandomRogue eviscerates Patchwerk
    SomeOtherRogue slashes Patchwerk
    TheTankLOL lands a sound blow on Patchwerk

    If you keep wiping on Patchwerk at 10% then you can go talk to that rogue that keeps landing Slashes instead of Eviscerations about stepping up their game.

    Displaying how close a player is coming to the maximum potential of their class is not the same thing as showing DPS numbers that can and always are compared across classes and specs.

    Of course the WoW raiding community would hate this, with good reason: WoW's focus on the existing raid paradigm has attracted people who like that paradigm. Deviating so widely from the existing gameplay mechanics would severely upset the existing playerbase who is there because for the most part, they like that they are getting.

    The encounters that I always loved the most were ones where everyone had a job to do that was related to their class. The success of the raid was about completing the tasks that your class was good at in a competent manner, and not about a DPS race.

    I guess, my opinion is that when you are creating a raid force, you should be picking classes and specs for their utility abilites (snares, roots, stuns, silences, dispells, heals, etc...) instead of their raw DPS numbers, because while many people love to whip out their ePeen and measure it against other people, I think ultimately DPS chasing is not compelling gameplay.

    Of course, that's just my opinion and like arse holes, everyone has one and they all stink.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    You don't know​, you think. There is a very big difference. If you want to measure something, anything, you need some kind of metrics. The only way to establish such a standard is at some point, math needs to be used. Otherwise, you're just debating opinions.
    My personal opinion, and certainly you are free to disagree, (and do) I think debating efficacy is more compelling than comparing cold numbers out of context with the environment that they will be used in.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormspeaker View Post
    My personal opinion, and certainly you are free to disagree, (and do) I think debating efficacy is more compelling than comparing cold numbers out of context with the environment that they will be used in.
    What I'm trying to say is, you cannot debate efficiency without a standard of metrics. At some point, you have to measure data. You can't do so logically without using one form of math or another. Tis why Math is the universal language.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    What I'm trying to say is, you cannot debate efficiency without a standard of metrics. At some point, you have to measure data. You can't do so logically without using one form of math or another. Tis why Math is the universal language.
    It doesn't have to be raw DPS though. Say for example if the game rated a players attacks based on how close they came to the theoretical maximum, and assigned them an A, B, C, D, or F rating based on that, you could then count the raw number of attacks that the player performed and the qualitative value of those attacks. While you would have no way to tell if a rogue that did 100 "A quality" attacks did more damage than a mage that did 100 "A quality" attacks (or different specs within the same class) you could say that the rogue that did 50 "A quality" attacks and 10 B, 10 C, 5 D, 10 F quality, and 15 misses was qualitatively worse than the first rogue.

    Could you retrofit such a system onto WoW? Not likely, at least not without a player revolt. But, it would solve the problem of people obsessing over minor differences between classes and specs and instead focus on how they can improve themselves.

  7. #27
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    Ok, then were are these letter ratings coming from? DPS? Crit strikes? damage taken? It's the same math we already use now. If there was such a system, the mathy-guys would reverse engineer the letter rating, and we'd be right back where we are now. Only with an additional step, which, would get reduced to the same system we have now, anyway.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by wormspeaker View Post
    But, what if instead of seeing:

    SomeRandomRogue hits Patchwerk for 198,945 damage
    SomeOtherRogue hit Patchwerk for 98,998 damage
    TheTankLOL hits Patchwerk for 24,987 damage

    you saw:

    SomeRandomRogue eviscerates Patchwerk
    SomeOtherRogue slashes Patchwerk
    TheTankLOL lands a sound blow on Patchwerk

    If you keep wiping on Patchwerk at 10% then you can go talk to that rogue that keeps landing Slashes instead of Eviscerations about stepping up their game.
    That's just math without math. And how do you know "eviscerates" is better than "slashes" without a number associated with it (leaving aside your absurd not-math math in the posts below)?

    And even aside from Fetzie's example (or think of it as a subset if you like), you're a DPS in that 10 man raid, and your job is to do as much damage as you can to the boss while not pulling aggro off of the tank. How do you know if you ARE doing your job if you have no numbers to back you up?

    If you don't have enrage-timer fights, DPS doesn't matter and if DPS doesn't matter then there's no particular skill involved in BEING a DPS. The very skill of being DPS is putting out as much damage as you can while still managing all the mechanics of a fight...I fail to see how this is non-obvious.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    I fail to see how this is non-obvious.
    Pretty much sums this one up. Games are based on math because they have to be. Everything from the actual fight design to programming requires a metric to be stated in explicit detail. There is no grey area. It's a silly argument.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  10. #30
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    Also, how would you know what stats to stack at that point? Having the right rotation is definitely a critical element, but having your gear prepared properly is too. Affliction warlock for example; there are inflection points/breakpoints where haste and mastery switch priority on gear. With a rating system that only analyzed using the correct priority rotation, you wouldn't know if you are gearing properly. A ret pally in agility gear could score all A's.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  11. #31
    "If you don't have enrage-timer fights, DPS doesn't matter and if DPS doesn't matter then there's no particular skill involved in BEING a DPS. The very skill of being DPS is putting out as much damage as you can while still managing all the mechanics of a fight...I fail to see how this is non-obvious."

    This is a response to the various people involved so far:

    In WoW you are certainly right. My mistake was in any way trying to tie WoW to compelling gameplay.

    I'll apologize if you are offended by that statement. Perhaps WoW does have compelling gameplay but the raiding playerbase will not allow people to pursue it. I say that because while a player may find a Beast Mastery Hunter to be far more fun to raid with than a Marksmanship Hunter, but because BM does 5% less maximum DPS than a MM hunter, it is not a viable option.* Therefore the player is required to play the less fun spec in order to participate. This is not good gameplay.

    * Please substitute whichever class or spec happens to be on the outs because it does marginally less damage than another spec or class.

    So imagine with me if you will, a new MMO RPG called "Not-WoW"...

    In this Not-WoW, there are no levels, and while it is possible to get enchanted or otherwise better gear the differences are marginal, but each piece of gear has various ways to use it that require more or less timing and skill. As you "level up" you gain access to more difficult to execute maneuvers which are more effective, or at least differently effective in different situations. The "higher level" skills are those that require more player skill to execute.

    Of course, being a computer game you can't avoid math (I should know that as well as anyone else, because as I type this I am waiting for the Security Admin group to figure out why my service account can't log in so I can finish debugging my application.) but you don't have to show it to the players, and you can make larger numbers tied to things other than gear and levels. Or at least a well designed game can show the math under the hood to the players and still be compelling because there is no "perfect build" for all situations, or even a large subset of situations.*

    * If WoW showed all the math under the hood to the players at the start of an expansion, within a week there would be an undisputed best class and spec to play for all situations. It would be possible to definitively say for raid X you need Y1 of class #1, Y2 of class #2, and Y2 of class #3. And any other class makeup is doing it wrong.

    Let's continue on our journey with Not-WoW: Say your character learns a skill to wear heavy armor. He decides to swap out his existing light armor for heavy armor. He now moves slower and can't really dodge too well. That's OK because he wasn't that good at anticipating boss attacks anyway. So he's rather not have to worry about them at all. So now, he'll just focus on attacking and let his heavy armor focus on mitigating as much damage as possible while he dishes out as much damage as possible.

    He is currently using a short sword and shield. He's not too happy with that because as bad as he is with watching boss animations to know when to dodge, he's only marginally better with knowing when to use his shield to block. And when he's dodging or blocking he can't attack anyway. He's all about the "phat deeps" so he decides to go to use some of this EXP to learn how to use a spear. So he swaps out his sword and board for a spear. His short sword was fast and easy to use (just had to push the up button when he wanted to stab) but could not be used from the front when the boss was blocking, and it did only 20 damage per hit. (not 1-20, not 11-20, but just 20) It could do double or even triple damage if he timed it just right and did the right pattern (up, left, left) but that's too hard for him. With his new spear he can do 30 damage per hit when the boss isn't blocking. However, if the boss is blocking he can use a much more complicated attack pattern (Down, Left, Left, Down, Up) to get through the boss's defenses and do 20 damage. Also, the added range on the spear allows him to stand further away from the boss so he can have more time to dodge if needed.

    This is still too complicated for our player. He isn't down with that complicated pattern to use his spear when the boss is blocking, and he doesn't want to dodge anyway. So he decides to go to the two handed hammer. It does 70 points of damage per swing (all he has to do is hold left until the swing is over) and will do 30 points of damage if the boss is blocking (Still just holding down left). It's really slow, but it makes a satisfying crunch when it hits, and it's super easy to use. So he's happy.

    Multiplayer brawlers have been doing this sort of thing (perhaps with only a fraction of the depth) for years, so there is no technical reason that it can't be done. It just happens to require a lot lower latency than many MMO companies are willing to pay for. You could distribute the server functions to the clients to improve latency, but that opens you to cheating if you don't design your system really well.

    No doubt many of you are scratching your head and asking how that's any different than WoW. The difference lies in keeping the numbers small and balancing them on a weapon type basis. If a short sword in the hand of a rogue is essentially the same as a short sword in the hand of a fighter, then you have balance.* You may need to tweak things until they are balanced, but once you are done, you don't need to re-balance every time an expansion comes out, or a new raid tier.

    * The fighter is just working on trying to keep the mob's attention and mitigate damage, while the rogue can get behind the mob and spend time executing a more complex maneuver with the short sword which does more damage.

    It will be immediately obvious that some class of weapon is "better" than others based on the numbers. (For example a Two Handed Hammer may do 1,000 points of damage over a 1 minute timeframe against a target dummy and a Hand Axe may only do 700 damage over 1 minute, but if you're fighting a goblin that dances out of the way every time you wind up your hammer swing then it's not all that effective. Or maybe you're a really good player which knows the goblin's moves, you know exactly when to start swinging to make contact. But you still can't do it every time your hammer is readied after a swing. So you put away your hammer and pull out your Hand Axe instead. There is no reason that a single weapon should ever be "best in slot" for your character in all situations.) If that class of weapon can be used by all classes of character, then there is no problem.

    Personally, I would prefer a wound based system rather than a pure HP based system. Meaning that if you are hit in your arm, then you get a wound there. Based on the severity of the wound whatever is in that arm swings slower or with less force, or not at all. If you are hit in the leg then you move slower and have a harder time dodging. If you are hit in the head then your character can be disoriented. You also slowly bleed from your wounds depleting a blood pool (much like DayZ or the original X-Com if you are familiar with it) and healers can heal wounds and also restore blood pools. This also means that weapon damage ranges can be from Light, to Medium, to Heavy, to Severe instead of 1 to 100 or whatever. (Sure, light is 1 and medium is 2 and heavy is 3 and severe is 4, but it does not have to be a simple additive mathmatic function. A weapon that does light damage if used properly at the right time can cause a severe wound.) This also allows more interesting boss mechanics, where rogues are slashing the boss's heels to slow him down and the rangers are shootinghis eyes to blind him.

    This argues against having classes of characters at all. You should freeform your character based on how you like to play. It may become apparent that a character armed with a sword and shield is more effective against a boss than a character who slings fireballs (down, down-right, right - Hadouken) but that other boss down the hall is really easy to hit with fireballs, but blocks swords really well, unless you time it just right. And maybe you can time it just right, but not every player can.

  12. #32
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    I'm sorry, but a combination of buttons to execute one move doesn't sound that interesting to me. Setting up abilities is fine as long as there is value in every button you press. Button combinations for a single attack sounds like dance dance revolution for a combat system. This combat system sounds much more suited to a console. A console hack'n'slash MMO might be a neat idea but is definitely an entirely different animal than wow.
    "he doens't need healing, he doesn't need healing, he doesn't nee-WHAOSHIT!wtf was that man!". Please stop leaning on TDR. -Teng

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sifuedition View Post
    I'm sorry, but a combination of buttons to execute one move doesn't sound that interesting to me. Setting up abilities is fine as long as there is value in every button you press. Button combinations for a single attack sounds like dance dance revolution for a combat system.
    You assume that the button combinations are just a sequence needed to unleash the move DDR style, which I suppose it could be. However, imagine for a moment that the first key press winds up your attack, the second one directs it towards the now exposed location, and so on.

    Each keystroke could be meaningful because the better you time it and the more accurately you understand how the boss is defending itself the more effective your attack can be. Further if it was just a DDR style mechanic, then you could just program your fancy keyboard to do it for you and take that element of skill out of it.

    Imagine if you will, the longer you hold down an individual key the more power your attack has. However, you can't hold it down too long of you miss your window of opportunity. And if you don't like memorizing keystrokes, you can just use a simpler weapon that does slightly less damage, but has a much easier attack pattern and can more easily take advantage of a window of opportunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by sifuedition View Post
    This combat system sounds much more suited to a console. A console hack'n'slash MMO might be a neat idea but is definitely an entirely different animal than wow. This combat system sounds much more suited to a console. A console hack'n'slash MMO might be a neat idea but is definitely an entirely different animal than wow.
    Yes, an entirely different animal, which is why I called it "Not-Wow". However, this was just an extreme example to prove my point anyway. WoW could never be made to be this. They tried that already actually, and the player base hated it. I think that mainly it was because they didn't build the entire game system around it, and instead just tacked it on top, but also as I mentioned before WoW players play WoW at least for the most part because they are getting what they want out of the game. Giving them something else isn't what they want.

  14. #34
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    where not smarter... hahah most people i meet on a day to day baises as a IT pro couldn't figure there way out of a box.. so its not that.

    If blizzard didn't remove states like block value and so on the game would be harder to figure out. As far as raids in vanilla there where no so called guides...

    THe case is not people are smarter.. its the fact the game is easier to play.

  15. #35

    Re: The Weekly Marmot - Are We Too Smart for MMOs?

    Quote Originally Posted by wormspeaker View Post
    You assume that the button combinations are just a sequence needed to unleash the move DDR style, which I suppose it could be. However, imagine for a moment that the first key press winds up your attack, the second one directs it towards the now exposed location, and so on.

    Each keystroke could be meaningful because the better you time it and the more accurately you understand how the boss is defending itself the more effective your attack can be. Further if it was just a DDR style mechanic, then you could just program your fancy keyboard to do it for you and take that element of skill out of it.

    Imagine if you will, the longer you hold down an individual key the more power your attack has. However, you can't hold it down too long of you miss your window of opportunity. And if you don't like memorizing keystrokes, you can just use a simpler weapon that does slightly less damage, but has a much easier attack pattern and can more easily take advantage of a window of opportunity.



    Yes, an entirely different animal, which is why I called it "Not-Wow". However, this was just an extreme example to prove my point anyway. WoW could never be made to be this. They tried that already actually, and the player base hated it. I think that mainly it was because they didn't build the entire game system around it, and instead just tacked it on top, but also as I mentioned before WoW players play WoW at least for the most part because they are getting what they want out of the game. Giving them something else isn't what they want.
    Your "not-wow" sounded an awful lot like GW2

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  16. #36
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    I guess my take on this subject is this...

    I pay $15 per month to play this game. I will play it the way I want and if someone does not like it, then that is just too bad.

    I do not use guides, simcraft or even watch encounter videos. I figure out stuff on my own and I always have.

  17. #37
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    Lolololololololololololol.......

    Sorry. I'll formulate a real reply when I can stop laughing over all of this....

    EDIT:

    Ok. Now that I'm at home and at a keyboard instead of playing catch-up via tablet, I'll submit a "real" reply. (So chill out Kren....)

    1) The title should be changed to "Are We Too Smart for WoW?" as this stuff is not for all MMO's across the board. By and large, many of these issues really only pertain to WoW and "WoW-clones" that utilize the same underlying structure for gameplay. More on that in the next section.

    2) This..... attitude..... is so mind-numbingly arrogant and hypocritical, I've been struggling over the past hour now trying to sort out my thoughts as to where to even begin.

    I'll start with this..... how did Heroic Ragnaros go for you Lore? I seem to recall someone's raid team having a hell of a time with that. Were you guys too smart for that one? This concept of "too smart for mmo's", a lot of it hinges on how WoW is played currently. With all of the mods, UI changes, data collection, spreadsheets, theorycrafting, and the like. Blizzard COULD honestly change things to make the game much more difficult by not allowing these things. Problem is.... they already opened Pandora's Box and there's no way to close it without the collective elite of WoW screaming and howling like stuck pigs. In that sense, this argument is hypocritical. It's not much different from a professional football player who is using steroids and other PED's to get an edge over the competition stating that, "the sport is too easy".

    I understand arguments such as ones Ion would propose, and I do get that. How can you gauge improvement without quantification? Without a lot of those extra tools, the improvement factor becomes muddy. The situation in the game becomes a very binary one, and it's not even tied to one person then.

    Consider.... if you had none of that data..... raid kills become a simply yes or no equation. Did this GROUP (key word) kill the boss? It becomes very difficult to assign blame or to troubleshoot the performance beyond "try harder". Beyond that, the individual members won't have fast and ready quantified data on hand to show whether "they performed better or not". You lose a lot of that individual "reward", in that players really don't have instant gratification of seeing a job well-done.... assuming they wiped. They don't have feedback beyond the game essentially telling you that you failed by showing your corpse laying on the field of battle.

    Yet, at the same time, we deride players who don't use these performance-enhancing devices. They're not doing everything they can to win. The flip side of that is..... the people who ARE using these..... do you not realize you are really doing everything you can to make the game EASIER? You really are!.... whether you accept that or not. And yes.... that is a "perception". I'll gladly admit to that..... because there really are two different ways of seeing that.

    When was the last time some of you tried playing the game and taking on some of these challenges without performance-enhancement? When was the last time anyone here tried to tackle a challenge without........

    - previewing a fight on video?
    - using something other than the stock UI?
    - using something other than the stock information feed?
    - using macros?
    - threat management information?

    Chances are?.... I'd bet probably 90%+ of the TankSpot population hasn't done this since the first month/year of playing WoW.

    Yet, people want to whine/cry about how it's "not challenging" and how they're "too smart" for it?
    Maybe some of you really need to take a step back and get honest with yourselves about things. Yes..... I "get" the argument that some will level back at me in kind. Say, Aggathon for example. The common argument of "you have to do everything you can to maximize your toon's performance in order to win, or you're not trying hard enough/not interested in winning." I get your point man. If the goal is simply TO WIN AT ALL COSTS..... well shit..... you might as well sit down and develop a program that will automate your gameplay as much as possible! In fact.... hell, we should automate the whole raid team as much as possible! Have a mod that makes all of the ranged dps automatically target a specific mob and hammer it! Make a mod that automatically pops cooldowns in a sequence as necessary to survive a boss fight!

    In some ways..... yes. You guys are too smart for it because, given the opportunity, you all built better mousetraps. You guys all went deer hunting with laser-guided missiles in a fenced-off area stocked with deer, and where the deer can't escape.

    That in mind, I'm going to jump to Blizzard's defense for once (you can mark this date on your calendar).
    They've been designing games that, despite all of these performance tools and data gathering devices, will STILL STUMP PEOPLE for at least a week or so. (From what I understand, the first raid bosses in MoP's initial tier dropped after about a week). That..... honestly.... is a bit of an achievement. That they can still throw up obstacles that will trip up seasoned raiders, some of which, who have been playing at a high-level of gameplay in this game and in this system FOR YEARS. Again..... Blizzard COULD make things immensely more difficult. In fact, frequently in cases where they do.... say, through the use of RNG.... they take a beating from a LOT of people because they're "no longer playing fair" in the eyes of those people.

    WoW is what it is now, and the chances of Blizzard undoing a lot of these things in an attempt to "fix it", ..... it's just not going to happen. Not without alienating a lot of people. And even then, even though it'd probably make things more challenging again...... the voices of some will elicit the "sheep" to parrot their own cries of "foul!".

    Blizzard..... frankly.... is kinda f**ked. They can't change the gearing system from what it is to make it more challenging (evidence: people who cried over Blizzard mentioning doing a stat-crunch)...... and please don't kid yourself.... the gear is just another way of "making things easier". Sure.... it improves performance. Not by the player actually DOING things better..... but by making the numbers bigger. Blizzard can't undo the whole "modding" thing. Not at this point. Not without causing outright revolt. And they are really pretty damn limited on what they can do to make bosses/encounters more interesting. Sure, they will come up with clever things now and then..... but by and large, as has been stated in the past by MANY people here and elsewhere..... Blizzard reuses the same mechanics over and over again in different combinations to create "challenge"...... which WE subsequently "nerf" through methods mentioned above.

    Oh, and please realize that Blizzard IS trying to "play fair" with you all. They could at any moment change stuff and make it insanely hard. They've created a set of rules, and keep creating new opponents. They've been approaching this entire problem from really only one direction, when they honestly could do a flip and start making things nasty. A fine example?..... They could change the way threat works on bosses and direct it to drop threat every so often and actually go after the REAL threats..... kill healers, then dps. Or create bosses that adapt their own strategies. Oh.... you guys are taking this approach? Ok.... next phase in 3...2....1 and the boss now does something completely different that no one has ever seen before. Hahaha.

    Blizzard..... sorry to say this but you're screwed, because you're dealing with human psychology at this point. Even if something MIGHT be good for the game or for a player, you have to somehow deal with the overarching set of beliefs that these people have adopted that prohibits or interferes with them behaving differently. (If you care to understand where I'm coming from, go look up a little bit on cognitive therapy.... in a nutshell, people will do and act on things because of an inherent belief, and not necessarily on evidence)

    That all said.....
    My suggestions? As I'm a believer in never making complaints without having ideas for fixing them.....

    1) Stop playing WoW if you feel you're too smart for it. Find something else that "challenges" you. I promise you, the real world has challenges. You might lose a little though..... so be prepared.

    2) Get over yourself. Accept WoW for what it is, realize that you're playing a game that you have "figured out", and take it in stride. Stop being a drama queen over this shit and try to ENJOY it. Freakin' loosen up a little. Let people have fun and play "beastmaster hunter" because they actually enjoy it. Honestly......when was the last time you actually ENJOYED WoW.....? As in, kid-at-the-playground running around playing spontaneously and just having fun, without some sort of carrot needing to be dangled before you?

    Realize that in some sense.... your actions run counter to what you are claiming to want.
    If you claim that you want a challenge...... then make it into a challenge. Don't just sit and whine that "waaaaaaah... I'm too smart and this is too easy" when you're playing something with the videogame equivalent to a cocktail of meth and 'roids.

    3) My last suggestion is for Blizzard. Learn from your past. Don't repeat some of these mistakes in Titan (whatever it'll be). Go into it with a clear plan as to how you want things to go from start to end..... and set some limits on things. Just because a player suggests it or whines about something doesn't mean it'll make the game better in the long haul.

    Anyway. That's my two cents. I know a lot of you will gloss over a little of this and disregard it as bullshit. You'll also be the same people stuck bitching about this issue endlessly. For the rest, I hope I gave you something to think about, and maybe enjoy the game a little more.
    Last edited by Leucifer; 12-08-2012 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Because I said I was going to........
    No one tanks in a void.........

  18. #38
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leucifer View Post
    Lolololololololololololol.......Sorry. I'll formulate a real reply when I can stop laughing over all of this....,,
    Comments like this are not only unnecessary and unproductive, but kinda piss me off.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  19. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    Comments like this are not only unnecessary and unproductive, but kinda piss me off.
    I'll apologize for my original response being "troll like".

    I will say this..... there's some seriously deep irony to this Weekly Marmot. I hope that there are some who can appreciate how some of the stuff that we (yeah, even me, as I did a lot of this crap too) do that is really counter-intuitive to what we claim to want from WoW. That, and some of what was said pissed me off pretty good.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    9

    Metagaming

    Working out a winning strategy within the parameters of the game is not "metagaming", it's "gaming".

    "Metagaming" is going outside the parameters of the game in order to win the game. Win trading would be metagaming, deliberately throwing a match in order to earn a lower seeding and avoid a specific opponent in the next round of a tournament would be metagaming, getting yourself suspended from a meaningless game in order to ensure availability for a later meaningful game would be metagaming.

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