The Weekly Marmot - How Valor Upgrades Saved MoP Raiding

[Lore]

[swelt]

I agree with some of this, but think you've missed a few considerations:
- A 'new 90' is unlikely to be able to queue for more than MSV in LFR unless they either grind some rep valor rewards or get very lucky with LFR drops, as they won't hit the required ilvl for HOF/Terrace
- As a tank, I frequently have to use my offspec for 1 tank encounters. In the past, I could use valor to fill out from some DPS slots. Now if I do that, I will be handicapping my main spec (so clearly I'm not going to do that) so I will be reliant on cast-offs that the mainspec plate dps don't want. This is not the first time in this expansion where I've felt that the loot systems have screwed over dual spec. In the past, there were often specific quests that gave tank rewards but now a single quest will give 1 reward related to your current spec. Similarly, the LFR/Sha loot drops seem to tie back to current spec.
- There will never be a perfect solution, because the requirements are too varied. What works for me in an experienced but not hardcore 25 man raid guild isn't going to be the same as a non-raider, nor a heroic hardcore progression guild. What Blizzard can and are doing is providing an array of viable progression paths that are appropriate to as many different tiers of progression as they can.


The thing I think Blizzard got wrong was underestimating the level to which players feel obligated to DO ALL THE THINGS. One of the things they kept bringing up before mop launch was that 'some players stopped having a reason to log in', and I think the plethora of factions and daily quests was intended to ensure there was always something you COULD do. But in the minds of many players, that became there are always some things you MUST do. I very quickly concluded that I did not want to do that many dailies every day, so I just did what I felt like. That decision alone is very liberating, but the game does not encourage that type of thinking. While I agree that the valor upgrade system does that for those in the higher tiers of progression, I don't think this is the silver bullet. The old daily quest cap was a very brute force limit that stopped people going crazy.... but it limited people that just really love doing daily quests or who had no interest in group play. What I think perhaps they need is some kind of diminishing returns or soft limit on dailies. Something like a rested bar for dailies. Earn double valor for the first X dailies of the day. (in effect, you'd earn half valor after X dailies). Bar takes about 3 days to refil, allowing you to feel that you can skip a day or two, but not making you feel that doing everything on day 1 is the most efficient.

[LotU]

Don't really like the system. Valor points was always (well almost always) consolation prize. You could bypass your bad luck or, as was mentioned, gear offspec. Now there is no such thing. The worst thing about that system is a 3k cap. If I didn't upgreaded my gear in 3 weeks time (at least not with a BiS item) - which is not that rare - i MUST put my valors in something that I will probably repalce. I liked that system when it was anounced, becouse in my head it was not intended for heroic items - You cannot get that heroic sword from Elegon? Use your valor points for a normal version and it will be ALMOST as good. Now you can't. It's more about RNG then ever.

My second concern is with the next content patch. Will it be tuned for upgreaded items or not? There was always a gap between hardcore guys who have all hc bosses on farm from week 2 and those who killed them later. However now it will be bigger then ever, becouse they will not only have more heroic items, they will also have more upgreaded heroic items. So content for non-upgreaded guys? Faceroll for the rest. Content for upgreaded guys? Impossible for the rest.

[Teapea]

only real problem with the system that I have is that even IF you clear all 16 bosses(which in a serious guild you might not cause char swapping) and clear each LFR.. It is still not enough to cap your valors. I mean 25 valors from a boss kill atm is just way too little atm, maybe upping it to 50 or something like that would make the system a lot better as raiders arent actually forced to run pointless dungeons just to cap valor

[Oliria]

There's also the issue that people who raid at a decent level, but cannot set aside the time to run dungeons/dailies everyday will be even further behind now. Atleast with rep you could get to revered and be done with it, this system ensures that you must spend atleast an hour or so farming everyday for valor.

Again some might challenge Blizzards decision to go back to bonus valor for heroics once per day, instead of 7/week. It's very frustrating when you want to be a serious raider, now it is not OK to focus on your raid days - you have to farm everyday.

[Theliana]

I really don't see where it's that big of an improvement. Yes, you have one more option on where to spend your valour points but you are still left with having to farm them. Which is exactly where we were before 5.1.

[sifuedition]

Honestly, I spent obscene amounts of time in-game during wrath and most of cata. Toward the end of cata and ever since, I have too many RL things to do and can't maintain that. Due to that, this return to the EVERY day necessity of dailies and gathering has really disappointed me in this expac. I thought they had learned a lesson with how well the system seemed to work in cata with being able to load your time when you could and not having such a restricted format for getting this stuff done. Also, I feel that the way valor gear and gear acquisition is working in general has taken a step back because getting OS gear is a nightmare, much less alts.

I blame the player-base, though. We got what we asked for. We asked for "more to do" and got daily-ville. We complained about "welfare epics" and got the new gear/valor systems. I say we in the colloquial sense because I was never one to complain about things to do or what gear anyone else had. We should know by now that Blizzard tends to slightly distort or go to extremes in delivering what we ask for. Complaingin to Blizzard often feels like wishing on a genie and getting the backfire of a granted wish. Just like the player-base asking for "heroic 5 mans" and us being delivered the wipe-fests we had for the first part of cata (if you pug'ed). I think they lost sight of the idea that "things to do" didn't necessarily mean "things we HAVE to do". That is partly our own fault too. If we don't "have" to do it, we often don't and then complain about having nothing to do. I hope they figure out a way to give us things to do that we don't feel are required but we DO feel are fun. Then they could fix this issue with dailies.

[Slyvar]

I blame the player-base, though. We got what we asked for. We asked for "more to do" and got daily-ville.

IDK if you can blame the players here. Yes, people asked for more to do outside of cities. But I'm pretty sure most people were asking for compelling content that was fun to do. I don't think anyone who said "we need more to do outside of cities" actually meant "we need more dailies to do ad naseum."

The hope was that Blizzard would compel people to leave cities with the prospect of having more fun. Not that they would force people out of cities with required rep grinds via dailies.

[sifuedition]

While I agree that what we got is not what we meant when we asked for more to do, from a Blizz standpoint, I can see how they came to that conclusion. Look at things like the firelands dailies, etc in cata. If we didn't "have" to do them, we didn't. I don't envy Blizz the job of finding something we will do even if we don't have to.

Bear in mind, this is a generalization and like all of those, is not accurate to all of us. I do feel that it represents a majority of the player-base, however. I just wish that the players would recognize how these usually turn out different than what was meant when they complain. If the complainers would be more specific and more creative with ideas instead of just complaints, we would have a better chance at a favorable outcome.

[eald]

Well maybe is because I read every blue post, but is clear to me why we have many dailies, there is no other content from blizzard right now (we can argue that they can create new type of content, but it doesn't exist right now) that achieves:
- Outside of the cities
- Different than raiding
- More
And with the reputation, you have a reason to do it, if you feel forced or not that is your decision but if they only give mounts, the people that only care about progression again like in cata will say: "this is not content". So you need to put something, it could be like in the tillers a good source of mats for raiding that you can workaround with gold via AH. But if you have a way to bypass everything that is not raiding then the defacto would be only do raids.

Blizzard knows that they must put something of value in the content in order for many people to do it, that is why they put valor gear there.

About the VP upgrades. I don't like it. The progression path for me was clear and simple, in my main I was in a stage where VP were not relevant at all so I could start to fill with 489 my offspec. Now I HAVE to weekly cap, if in Tuesday even better, so I can upgrade before raids.

About capping with raids only I think isn't that bad: 225 from dailies (for charms), 450 LFR (second fastest way to get VP after challenge modes but with chance of upgrades maybe) and 400 from raids bosses. Not that you really needed to do many more dailies to get enough reputation anyway but now is that easier.

[Slyvar]

I agree. I'm definitely not advocating something that's "fun with no reward" (and actually the pet battles are sort of that already). Most people need a reward to do something in WoW, even if it's fun. But, it seems like as game designers they could have done more than just dailies. =/

ON the topic of VP upgrades, I just don't like it. It feels like I have WAY to much to do to an individual piece of gear for it. Getting an upgrade has gone from being fun to being tedious.

[lauragnome]

Like the upgrade system, but don't overwhelmingly agree about saving valor for BiS items. With the low valor cap, unless you're actually already farming the bosses that give you BiS gear, you'd probably get a whole lot more mileage out of spending valor to keep high-itemization slots (weapons, trinkets) as buff as possible, even while waiting for an upgrade. 8 ilvls on your mainhand is a pretty decent boost at any level, at least where DPS is concerned.

[Mwawka]

I don't have a problem with the upgrade system, I have a huge problem with how much valor I have left to farm after raiding each week, and the fact that the options for getting that valor range from tedious to frustrating. The simple fact that lfr is more rewarding for valor than regular or heroic raiding is the strangest design decision I've seen in MoP. I don't enjoy lfr, never have, but because it is one of the most efficient ways to gain valor in a single sitting I find myself doing it anyway. If you have people doing the content only for the reward and not for the experience, they are going to be in a bad mood and the social environment of lfr will suffer. Having I'll tempered, impatient people grouped with those who are doing the content as their main raid experience will have a bad result and the current valor system ensures that this situation will persist and probably grow worse as time goes on.

[Lore]

Like the upgrade system, but don't overwhelmingly agree about saving valor for BiS items. With the low valor cap, unless you're actually already farming the bosses that give you BiS gear, you'd probably get a whole lot more mileage out of spending valor to keep high-itemization slots (weapons, trinkets) as buff as possible, even while waiting for an upgrade. 8 ilvls on your mainhand is a pretty decent boost at any level, at least where DPS is concerned.

I talked about that a bit in the episode - if you can't upgrade a best in slot item and are about to hit valor cap, it's usually better to upgrade existing slots you already have over buying a valor point item.

[Lore]

I don't have a problem with the upgrade system, I have a huge problem with how much valor I have left to farm after raiding each week, and the fact that the options for getting that valor range from tedious to frustrating.

I agree - this is one of the issues I have with the system that I mentioned I'd be talking about in the future (which in retrospect was probably a bad idea - should have formed a complete thought in TWM)

[tawnos]

I talked about that a bit in the episode - if you can't upgrade a best in slot item and are about to hit valor cap, it's usually better to upgrade existing slots you already have over buying a valor point item.

Not really sure this is going to be true for very many at least until the zone debuff starts. Its usually going to boil down to a choice between upgrading an LFR piece or getting a 589/596 piece from the vendors. Its a tossup for a HOF/TOES lfr piece but still better to get a vendor item than upgrade a MSV LFR drop.

Once a significant number start getting past Elegon it will change.

[Lore]

It's better to upgrade a 483 LFR piece to 491 for 1500 points than it is to purchase a 489 ilevel valor piece for 1750/2250

It could possibly be better to purchase a neck or something for 1250, but you would have had to have exhausted all your other items that get higher benefit from item level (e.g. weapons, chest, legs, etc) first

[tawnos]

The way I look at it, the set bonuses make it so that there is more of an incentive to wait until you get lucky on a tier drop rather than buying a vendor piece that covers a tier slot. I have spent all of my valour so far on neck/ring/belt/trinket/bracer slots because the set bonus will make a 483 LFR tier piece subsantially better than a 489 or even 496 vendor piece in the same slot. I am still looking at these non-tier slots as a superiour upgrade to using valour to bump the ilvl of something other than a tier drop that I know I will keep.

Weapons, chest, legs, etc certainly give a greater benefit but its also unlikely for the vast majority of the raiders who are at the pre-elegon stage to have many or even any of these to use valour on. Even HOF/TOES LFR gear is still pretty sparse (my rogue has gotten 0 pieces so far e.g.).

[Leucifer]

/applause.....
Excellent intro Lore!
Yes..... where is spectator mode Blizz?
Please..... explain..... tell us why this can't be done.

As for valor upgrades.... I get what you're saying Lore, even if I don't agree 100% with your approach. To me... the fact that you can now use valor to improve gear, so that you can at least do SOMETHING, is a nice tip of the hat to the player faced with RNG. It gives you a choice to do something with them instead of getting a lackluster piece of gear.

[The_Pancake]

Like the upgrade system, but don't overwhelmingly agree about saving valor for BiS items. With the low valor cap, unless you're actually already farming the bosses that give you BiS gear, you'd probably get a whole lot more mileage out of spending valor to keep high-itemization slots (weapons, trinkets) as buff as possible, even while waiting for an upgrade. 8 ilvls on your mainhand is a pretty decent boost at any level, at least where DPS is concerned.

I agree with this. Trying to save your valor for BiS items is similar in concept to not wanting to gem/enchant your gear until you get better gear. Granted there is the difference that you're effectively limited in how much valor you can get, but the concept is still the same.

The way I see the upgrade system, and why I like it, is that it is something that is essentially endless (6 months is only the lower bound, in reality you will probably be upgrading a large amount of gear you ultimately replace before you even get half of your BiS items). But given that a single upgrade costs 750 valor and you can earn 1000 valor per week that means that you are capable of doing 1 upgrade per week, which means that it's a source of constant/continuous gear progression regardless of whether you got a drop or not. It's the consolation prize that valor gear has been, without competing directly with boss loot.

Sure there's always going to be that factor in your mind about not wanting to spend valor to upgrade an item you might replace soon, but that's there for buying valor gear, buying boes, crafted gear, or spending gems/enchants on an item, etc. But I think it would be a mistake to assume there's some general rule to not upgrade anything until you know you'll never replace it. While spending valor and then replacign the item might be "wasting" valor, it's also a waste to just sit on your valor where it's not doing anything.