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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Is LFR Required for Raiding?

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - Is LFR Required for Raiding?

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  2. #2
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    Why can't guilds that enforce running as a requirement just run them as a guild group? Even just having a ten man raid with the two tanks, 3 of the healers and 5 of the DPS can make the fights so much easier to complete.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Why can't guilds that enforce running as a requirement just run them as a guild group? Even just having a ten man raid with the two tanks, 3 of the healers and 5 of the DPS can make the fights so much easier to complete.
    Exactly. That's what Months Behind does -- a few of our members miss it, but most people get an easy LFR clear. Seems the obvious answer to me.
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  4. #4
    I'll try and post my problems with LFR in an understandable format.

    If we can agree that we feel like LFR is mandatory, this will be made alot easier.

    i was discussing this actively on the EU forums with Draztal for quite some time. until one of my friends asked me "why do you complain about having to put in effort in order to raid?" i had to stop my rant for a bit and think that one through.
    Yes! we are being forced into doing LFR, and if you think about it, LFR is not that different from enchanting your gear. I dont mind that its mandatory for me to enchant my gear, why do i mind LFR so much?
    The answer to that is: it is because i have to do it in an environment that i do not enjoy. i know of very few people who enjoys pugging.
    You could of course bring in the argument that running dungeons is also mandatory. and yes, but the big diffrence is that im able to run dungeons with a small group of friends from my 10 man raiding guild, but im not able to run LFR with 25 people from my 10 man raiding guild. therefore im forced into earning my gear through pugging, which i suprisingly do not enjoy.

    The second part of my problems with LFR is that it is a revamped version of the raids im progressing through with my set group of 10 people every wednesday. so i get to see the awesome artwork and explore the story of the raids in an environment that i do not enjoy, therefore ruining my whole experience of the place.

    my first suggestion was to share the lockout of 10/25 and LFR. but an MVP brought up the point that people would be unable to play with 2 groups of friends (their guild and possible crossrealm buddies)
    now i would suggest that they should share the item lockout (only be able to earn the loot from one raid type (10/25 or LFR)) thereby i would not be forced into running LFR and i would be able to catch up on loot if i was set on standby for a week of raiding.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    Why can't guilds that enforce running as a requirement just run them as a guild group? Even just having a ten man raid with the two tanks, 3 of the healers and 5 of the DPS can make the fights so much easier to complete.
    That is very close of taking time away from raiding. I guess this kind of guild want you to do "more" and if everybody can login at certain time that time is for progression.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by eald View Post
    That is very close of taking time away from raiding. I guess this kind of guild want you to do "more" and if everybody can login at certain time that time is for progression.
    If they consider LFR to be part of progression, a hardcore guild that is hunting for a world top 100 place (or even just top 500) will make sure to schedule running LFR as part of their raiding week. It would only take that kind of guild an hour to knock out all three LFR instances (and they would probably drop MGV when Endless Springs opens up). These guilds consider all of the 168 hours in the week to be "time for progression" if they need to.

    Remember how such guilds like Method, Paragon, Premonition, Blood Legion would run LFR with a 25 man group, with 3-4 mains and the rest alts, and funnel gear to the mains? They ran LFR 5-10 times a week to get their raiders the (admittedly totally over-powered) T13 set bonuses that were worth thousands of dps, on top of alt-25 mans to be able to swap in alts for class-stacking reasons.

  7. #7
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    I do wonder where you draw the line between "quality of life" improvements such as removing the requirement for raiders to perform certain activities and then "making the game easy".

    The word "easy" might be controversial but let me explain.

    There needs to be something to differentiate the hardcore players from the less hardcore players. If you make too many quality of life improvements you reduce that differentiation.

    You need to provide opportunities for the hardest of the hardcore to go out of their way and do ridiculous things in order to gain an advantage over those less willing to put in the effort.

    Now at this point I am sure people are shouting "this can be achieved by making the encounters harder!!!!!!!"

    No. Absolutely no. There are plenty of players out there with more than enough skill to clear heroic mode raids. I used to do it myself before I went casual. The reason large numbers of us are no longer able to do that is because we can't cope with the time requirements of doing absolutely everything necessary to gain even a 0.0001% advantage.

    If you remove or reduce those time requirements you may find yourselves shocked at how many players suddenly start joining the ranks of the "hardcore". If we know one thing it is that those in the hardcore like to feel special and part of a minority.

    So you really need ridiculous rep grinds and the requirement to run RF to give those super dedicated players a way in which to outperform the less dedicated but equally skilled.

    Unless you want a completely level playing field based purely on skill? In which case you need the type of game that Lore has hinted at wanting to see - a game which is simply a lobby and raids. You would even need to remove gear to reduce the luck element.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fetzie View Post
    If they consider LFR to be part of progression, a hardcore guild that is hunting for a world top 100 place (or even just top 500) will make sure to schedule running LFR as part of their raiding week. It would only take that kind of guild an hour to knock out all three LFR instances (and they would probably drop MGV when Endless Springs opens up). These guilds consider all of the 168 hours in the week to be "time for progression" if they need to.

    Remember how such guilds like Method, Paragon, Premonition, Blood Legion would run LFR with a 25 man group, with 3-4 mains and the rest alts, and funnel gear to the mains? They ran LFR 5-10 times a week to get their raiders the (admittedly totally over-powered) T13 set bonuses that were worth thousands of dps, on top of alt-25 mans to be able to swap in alts for class-stacking reasons.
    IF you say so; when you list Method, Paragon, Premonition, BL, I really think that you are running out of names of guilds that do that. Based on what Affiniti from BL said about US race being about 3 guilds this tier, because of time commitment. But in the end, I'm talking about those guilds that "only" raid for a established schedule, but raiders log in more time, instead of pokemon, those guilds expect from their raiders to do something to increase their chances to beat bosses in this extra time. Be under top 10, top 100 or top 500 if you want (I don't think so, but is irrelevant in the end, this kind of guild exist); if they choose to run LFR together or not is a more a tactical decision, not a quality-of-life for raiders.

  9. #9
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    Anyone who feels 'forced' to do LFR, is forgetting that they already made a choice to play in that competitive manner that makes the LFR gear considered important. If you're not going to be top-X, then anyone with the skill for heroic raids doesn't 'need' LFR gear at all, and any talk of being 'forced' is because of a choice you made, not that anyone forced on you.

    If you're going to be top-X, well, then that's just part of the deal that you have to do extra stuff. Used to be farming for elixirs and flasks and other non-profession stuff (the stuff from Un'goro comes to mind), now it's farming LFR for extra drops if that's what it takes for you.

    Basically, if you're good enough to do heroic modes, you shouldn't 'need' the gear from LFR. If you insist you do, maybe you need to look at yourself a bit and figure out why. Exception is the world -first guilds, but, as I and Blizzard have said, that's just part of the deal for them.

  10. #10
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    The more I see this argument going around and around, the more I think "I am forced to do everything I can to make raiding easier, but I will complain about everything I don't like" is toxic to the game design. Ideally, players would self-select into doing whatever is possible but not complaining about it, or not doing the things they don't like, and guild leadership would think harder about whether they really need to ask their raiders to do stuff in order to progress at an enjoyable pace.

    For the players who don't select into those buckets or are forced into the wrong bucket by their guild leadership, Blizzard can only do so much to help them without killing the game for everyone else. With the benefit of hindsight, I would have tuned things a bit differently than Mists did (MSV normal would be easier to ease people into T14 without requiring tons of prep work, and I would have picked one or two ways to spend valor points without rep at launch), but there would still be plenty of complaints about "required" content. LFR is "bad" because of the double-speed burnout issue or having to play with strangers who aren't always very good. Dailies are "bad" because of mob competition or the lack of challenge in the solo open-world game. Dungeons are "bad" because of the limited amount of content or (again) having to play with strangers. To eliminate all of those complaints, all of that content would have to be effectively removed from the item progression system, at which point there is no vertical progression at level cap for non-raiders and nothing to do outside of raid for raiders.

  11. #11
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    "I will complain about everything I don't like" is toxic to the game design.
    Not necessarily, negative feedback is still feedback and if presented in a constructive manner, I'd like to believe negative comments can have a positive influence. For example, not too long ago Blizzard wanted to put forum user's real names out there for everyone to see. (I believe this was going to be part of the real id program) There was a massive wave of QQ about this (which is quite understandable) and Blizzard realized they were about to do something stupid. While, I understand that my example had nothing to do with the topic at hand, it was just there to illustrate my point. Something good can come from something bad.

  12. #12
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    You kind of quoted me out of context there. In many cases negative feedback is constructive, but not when it's "you gave me a bunch of menu options, and because I have to eat all of them all the time, you'd better make sure that every single one is something I like."

  13. #13
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    If you don't care about being competetive, then don't run LFR. If you want to compete, then give yourself every edge you can, without exploits. It's really as simple as that. Bad groups come with running with randoms, you'll get the same people in 5 mans that you will in LFR and sometimes you get unlucky with your lineup. Oh well.

    One other thing to consider is all of the LFR gear so far is lower ilevel of the normal mode of the next tier, so if you've farmed full heroic MSV gear there's a chance you won't need or want LFR in Heart of Fear. That's going to be a different argument from player to player but that's the message Zarhym keeps getting back to.

    Blizz tried separate lockouts for n/h 10/25 in TOC, and players complained they had to run 4 of the same raid every week. They made the n/h lockouts the same in ICC, I didn't see too much trouble with that method personally but I'm sure SOMEONE bitched. Then, they combined all lockouts for a raid into 1. I'm sure there was complaints too that now there's no opportunity to farm a same-tier raid for extra loot. Where is there option that makes everyone happy? Can you come up with something? I mean that's what Blizz is trying to do with this is make a happy medium. The main thing is, LFR exists for the casual. If it burns you that much to run it, don't. If your guild requires it in order to be considered a "core raider", god I love that cliche, then you can decide whether or not said guild is for you, and either shut up or leave accordingly.


    /poorly worded rant off
    Last edited by Dreadski; 11-08-2012 at 08:24 AM. Reason: typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  14. #14
    Damn Blizzard giving people more stuff that they can do! I don't want to play an MMO that lets me do stuff.

  15. #15
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    I agree that players feel like they are required. I understand that, but I agree with what Zarhym said. For most players it simply isn't required. Guilds might require it, but the raiding doesn't.

    Heroic guilds certainly have to do lfr for this first tier. Unless there is some amazing trinket proc or set bonus, they won't need to run lfr in the next two tiers. That gear will be outclassed by their current heroic gear. Their done with it, move them off the required table.

    Depending on the server, guilds competing for server first might not have to run it either. If they are heroic guilds that cleared enough to have all heroic gear, then they don't need it. If they aren't then yes lfr is required. How many players is that though, not a very big percent of the overall population. All players play for their enjoyment. If you aren't world ranked or going for server firsts then that's definitely all you are playing for. You aren't in a competition.

    I really like what Zarhym posted and what he was trying to do. I think he was trying to change the mindset of the players. He was unsuccessful. People don't like finding out which rung of the wow ladder they are on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toypop View Post
    Unless you want a completely level playing field based purely on skill? In which case you need the type of game that Lore has hinted at wanting to see - a game which is simply a lobby and raids. You would even need to remove gear to reduce the luck element.
    Everything else aside...I'd actually probably enjoy this.

    Getting gear checked because you're more casual now than you were or because having roster issues because people feel burned out by all the grinding or whatever time sink bullshit there is in the game as a barrier to entry isn't interesting gameplay. It's just an artificial brickwall of no interest to me.

    I think most of my guild has basically decided that the grind to get gear so that you're capable of putting out numbers enough to kill bosses (which you can do all the mechanics of but are getting in some way throughput-checked on) isn't worth it. We've basically stopped playing because we are all adults with jobs who spend most of our days there, have lives outside of WoW and only have a fairly limited amount of time to spend inside the game...and if we're just grinding gear instead of doing something interesting the luster is lost VERY quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshvolt View Post
    I really like what Zarhym posted and what he was trying to do. I think he was trying to change the mindset of the players. He was unsuccessful. People don't like finding out which rung of the wow ladder they are on.
    He will always be unsuccessful. Just like making crafting mats BoP doesn't work, simply saying "THIS REALLY ISN'T REQUIRED FOR YOU" won't work either. It's an exercise in futility that I can't understand why they bother undertaking.
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  17. #17
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    It's grown to be a tiresome and bullshit whine of some of the player base. You don't want to do LFR, don't do it; nobody's putting a gun to your head, it's game it's supposed to be fun, if it's not fun don't do it, find another game that you do find fun. MV is perfectly doable in 463 gear. For most of these "raiders" who whine about LFR being mandatory, the difference between 463 and 476 isn't going to make a damn bit of difference, what will make a difference is to suck less.

    Christ, this whiney, childish attitude of "oh, Blizz you screwed me over making me do things I don't want to do" after a while just grinds the nerves. People need to lose the selfish, "the game is just built for me and what I like to do" mentality. And for those of you who say "I know lots of people who feel like I do". Here's reality, no; you don't. You know maybe 50 people on your server out of 10 million subscriptions, you don't know squat. Even if you know 100, you don't know squat. The amount of people you know isn't even big enough to be satistically irrelevant. Get over yourselves.

  18. #18
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    I don't really agree its optional in this tier. Without the zone debuff its going to be extremely difficult for most to progress in tier14 with nothing but 463 gear available.

    Presumably in the next tiers it will actually be optional as tier n+1 LFR gear won't be better than tier n normal mode gear and the content will only be 1 tier ahead of the previous tier's gear level. Normal mode MV is effectively 2 tiers of gear/content beyond the 463 gear available purely from heroics and while that doesn't make it impossible to use only the heroic level gear it isn't what I would call viable for the majority of people.

    If tier14LFR had been 463 gear and tier14 normal been tuned to and dropped 476 gear LFR would have actually been 'optional'.

  19. #19
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    What was the difference between heroic blue gear from cata dungeons vs. T11 drops? I mean to me 13 ilevels is nothing. I was in normal MSV week one with an avg ilevel of about 455 equipped and we were fine. In fact nearly everyone was within 10 ilevels of my gear either way. Even if talking heroic if you're at 463 total, MSV is still doable for many.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  20. #20
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    Gear inflation has really become the crutch of the masses it seems. Maybe that Greedy Goblin guy (forget his name) needs to do a an encore of something like his ICC in blues; ilvl187 gear downing a fair amount of bosses built for ilvl 251 (don't recall if the buff was turned off).

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