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Thread: Avatar nerf

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edd13Mac View Post
    This sounds fine for Arms and Fury, but I think what you are missing is that we are discussing how this effects Protection Warriors, and how the only true benefit in our level 90 talents was the rage increase from Avatar to increase the amount of damage we could mitigate.
    Now I'm not saying that Prot Warriors cannot follow the instructions above, it's just that it does nothing in any relative terms for helping us Tank anything.
    I think you misunderstood the context of the statements that were being made. It has been established by Blizzard that Avatar is being nerfed because of PvP cooldown stacking (which by the way has been discussed MORE in this thread than prot warrior mechanics). Therefore I showed an example of how the bonus rage contributed to PvP burst. I never implied that it had anything to do with prot (and in a couple of places in this thread even said it's hurting prot for no good reason), nor did I indicate that PvE protection warriors can or should follow an example of how an arms warrior does burst in PvP.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    I think you misunderstood the context of the statements that were being made. It has been established by Blizzard that Avatar is being nerfed because of PvP cooldown stacking (which by the way has been discussed MORE in this thread than prot warrior mechanics). Therefore I showed an example of how the bonus rage contributed to PvP burst. I never implied that it had anything to do with prot (and in a couple of places in this thread even said it's hurting prot for no good reason), nor did I indicate that PvE protection warriors can or should follow an example of how an arms warrior does burst in PvP.
    My mistake. Although from the OP and the following posts I thought we were discussing how prot has no real talent at level 90 that is worth much more than a small dps boost.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edd13Mac View Post
    My mistake. Although from the OP and the following posts I thought we were discussing how prot has no real talent at level 90 that is worth much more than a small dps boost.
    That is true, we were just discussing the source of the nerf. The burst of warriors in PvP is still an issue, we're just bitching that this nerf to Avatar didn't fix that and really only serves to screw over prot warriors.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edd13Mac View Post
    My mistake. Although from the OP and the following posts I thought we were discussing how prot has no real talent at level 90 that is worth much more than a small dps boost.
    I agree completely At this point, Blizzard might as well scrap the entire level 90 tier and start over. With the Avatar nerf, there's really not an option anymore. Bloodbath gives superior DPS for PvE and Storm Bolt is the obvious choice for PvP. So, Bloodbath is the only option for Protection Warriors and all it does is increase damage. Which is fairly meaningless with threat not being an issue anymore. If the goal of the new talent trees is to let you choose the talents you prefer to use, then the level 90 Warrior tier fails miserably at that. (I'd argue that most of the entire Warrior tree fails at that, but that's another conversation.)

  5. #25
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    So is this like... protest time?

    If the changes go live, maybe Blizz will notice if a significant % of protection warriors are running around without 90-tier talents? I know they pay more attention to what people in top-end raiding guilds are doing.

    With the nerf listed I guess my talent point would go to Storm Bolt, since the others don't even offer utility anymore.

    I've never liked bloodbath as a talent. The other two at least do something that affects your gameplay.

    One gives you mobility, damage, and rage. You can hit things you couldn't before (in pvp), you can hit them harder, and you can use more of your abilities since rage management is central to how a warrior plays.

    One gives you a ranged stun that doesn't require you to be mobile and has a longer reach than your unglyphed charge.

    However, no matter what spec, pvp or pve, Avatar as it is at least does something both beneficial and valuable for all warrior specs and is a good example of what a talent, especially a higher-tier talent, should look like. Removing the rage generation and mobility features of the talent is antithetical to the stated intent behind the current talent tree design.

  6. #26
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    It could also be likely that all warriors picked avatar so it was a manditory talent... which is something they said from the onset they did not want. Not that I agree with the change at all. Perhaps some people like Lore or Teng could bring this up to Blizzard in a much more detailed/thought out post then I could.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathelve View Post
    It could also be likely that all warriors picked avatar so it was a manditory talent... which is something they said from the onset they did not want. Not that I agree with the change at all. Perhaps some people like Lore or Teng could bring this up to Blizzard in a much more detailed/thought out post then I could.
    @travelsize, Um no, you could skip it yes, but you wouldn't. It's just that none of them are an exciting or agonizing choice, from a raiding PoV, basically all of them are meh; take bloodbath.

    @Deathelve; Not really a mandatory talent, it was good for burst in PVP, and the extra rage made it a mandatory talent for prot in PVE but for PVE DPS Bloodbath is much better. As much as my ego appreciates the idea that i am some sort of warrior community icon, I am not, and Blizzard are no more likely to listen to me than anyone else (less likely actually as i'm not playing on US servers and thus can't post on the US forums).

    If i was gonna redo the tier i'd leave Avatar as it is in the nerfed state, make a Bloodbath a passive that caused you special sttacks to make them bleed for 6 seconds for 6% of the damage done and reduce their movement speed by 10%, and then give stormbolt a chance to proc SnB and increase its damage 6-fold, in which case you have the choice between a CD, a passive and a rotational ability.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 11-02-2012 at 07:05 PM.
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  8. #28
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    Teng why not add Damage Shield as an option in place of one of the level 90 talents?
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  9. #29
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    Becuase some dreams are too much to hope for.
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  10. #30
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    I don't like bloodbath. Gonna keep using avatar for the time being and maybe macro BB into shield slam or some crap. What an annoying talent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Teng why not add Damage Shield as an option in place of one of the level 90 talents?
    Rogues would bitch up a storm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  12. #32
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    They could put an ICD on it just like they have on critical block enrages.

    EDIT: if you feel the need to bitch about the level of mehness of our level 90 talents, i suggest making a polite twit at Ghostcrawlers Twitter page.

    ANd my god do i want Damage shields now.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 11-02-2012 at 11:42 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  13. #33
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    I miss the ICC damage shield =(

    The state of warrior talents for tanking really is sad. Compared to all the other tanks, our talents have little to no impact on our rotation / tanking dynamic whatsoever. Only two tiers have a direct impact on tanking outside of 5 mans.

    Tier 2 (healing tier) has ER with a cooldown that is to long for a heal that is to small and requires enrage to be used in order to be viable so taking this talent extremely limits the usefulness of a core ability we already have. IR has a rage requirement so it hinders our survival in order to give us a ~50k heal every 30 seconds, almost better off just using the 10 rage for shield barrier. That leaves the mindless Second wind that will likely be nerfed in the future due to pvp anyways because in a 1v1 situation it's damn near impossible for a mid ranged skill person to kill a prot warrior these days, and in PvE raiding it has limited usefulness (in 36 minutes of boss fights tuesday second wind averaged 150 HPS for me).

    Tier 5 (survival tier) are all abilities that aid in the survival of someone else. Great concept, but given that none of the other tiers make up for this with any sort of tanking utility means that this is all we get. Mass spell reflect so far that I've seen has zero raid utility. Vigilance is a carbon copy of hand of sacrafice (haven't found a benefit to the taunt spamming in raiding), which while somewhat useful only redirects single target damage from a target and not mitigate it. Honestly the current iteration of vigilance should be baseline for protection because it is so lackluster. Many mid skilled paladins don't even have HoS on their bars and we get it as a talent choice *twirls finger*. That leaves safeguard as a talent, which is a neat ability that I like (and has finally been fixed to not have the threat drop). However it would be a much stronger talent if given a choice to pick it in fights where it is strong and have an even half decent alternative on fights where it is not as useful (Only fights in MV I've found it decently useful on are Feng, Gara'jal, and partially on Elegon).


    From a 5 man / questing / lvling perspective I love the talent choices. But in a raiding environment it could use a complete overhaul to adjust at least one, preferably two tiers to have special modifications to throw a bone to protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by New druid maul change on PTR
    A new passive ability has been added: Tooth and Claw. This ability causes autoattacks to have a chance to empower the Druid's next Maul. Empowered Maul reduce the damage dealt by the target's next autoattack. Guardian Druids obtain this ability at level 32.
    If a function like this were added to either shockwave or stormbolt if the target is immune to stuns it would be nice for instance. Perhaps the next 2 swings on stormbolt use given that it has a 30 second cooldown. Plenty can be done, but bottom line is it would be nice if our talents were as useful as the other trees.

    Dk's have 3 tiers that are at least marginally influential for raiding in relation to tanking.
    Druids have 3 tiers that are extremely influential for raiding purposes.
    Monks have 4 tiers that influence their tanking for raiding.
    Paladins have 4 tiers that influence their tanking for raiding.

    I know comparing classes normally ruffles feathers and that it should be done carefully or not at all, I'm just trying to make a point that it would be nice to be given choices that actually impact what I do in the game... most everything I do outside of raiding while playing my warrior is simply done to aid me and my guild in future raids. Like I said many of the warrior talents are great outside of raiding but in a raiding environment the whole talent tree is extremely lackluster.

  14. #34
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    The actual reason for the nerf to CC immunity is making more sense now. Here's a quote from a blue poster from this morning:

    For a Warrior to build up enough stacks to global a player like seen in this video, they need a incredible amounts of up time to make sure the stacks of TFB do not fall off before getting a new one. To make it clearer, in 15 seconds they need to get a new stack of TFB and then repeat that, hoping their stacks do not fall off before the buff expires. Four or five TFB stacks are generally needed to pull off the Heroic Strike damage you see in the video on a well geared player and because of the changes in 5.1 these stacks while still possible to build, will not be as easy to get as they are now.
    So, the CC immunity is causing enough up time that Taste For Blood stacks are getting higher than Blizzard wants them to be on an average. I didn't think about it this way. But, when you look at it from that angle the Avatar nerf does reduce PvP burst. Quite significantly in fact. I still think it could have been done without hurting protection warriors, though.

  15. #35
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    The problem is not just the massive HS crits, it's also due to the 5 Overpowers that lead up to it and Avatar simply allowed such a window to exist. So I can understand the nerfs to the CC immunity and the damage (compensated over time), but the Rage removal was just unwarranted imho. I know Paladins have a choice between DPS & healing/survival in their last tier, I wish Warriors has as well.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airowird View Post
    The problem is not just the massive HS crits, it's also due to the 5 Overpowers that lead up to it and Avatar simply allowed such a window to exist. So I can understand the nerfs to the CC immunity and the damage (compensated over time), but the Rage removal was just unwarranted imho. I know Paladins have a choice between DPS & healing/survival in their last tier, I wish Warriors has as well.
    Shit you'd be extremely lucky to get 5 stacks from 5 overpowers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    just don't let them melee you up the bum.

  17. #37
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    Chance on X OP = Y per MS:
    1 -> 30% (1 per 3.3333 MS)
    2 -> 9% (1 per 11.1111 MS)
    3 -> 2.7% (1 per ~37 MS)
    4 -> 0.81% (1 per ~123.5 MS)
    5 -> 0.243% (1 per ~411.5 MS)

    You could ofcrouse increase the chance after a 'failed' OP by MSing again, but you'ld still want fast stacking procs before they get CC'd off of you (hence the immunity nerf), which means more lucky strings required now (and more "dafuq I didn't see that coming" QQ on the official forums)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  18. #38
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    So what is this collective verdict on a lvl 90 talent for a prot warrior in a dungeon? I don't want to hear about what Blizz shoulda/coulda done... But as the game is, NOW. What works?

    I'm kind of thinking, from everthing I've just read, that Storm Bolt is really attractive for saving a healer/zealous dps with basically an added range taunt/stun, but Avatar is also very attractive for the rage benefit and extra sustained survivability that comes from that.
    I'm leaning toward Storm Bolt simply based simply on the cooldown diffrence. You can use it often, (30secs), and at range, (30 yards). As far as I can tell it doesn't share a cooldown with any other pull. And I can see where a prot warrior will say, "boy, puling that add off the healer/dps with that throw really saved the day".

    But I wanted your opinion.

  19. #39
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    right now Avatar for the extra rage, as soon as 5.1 hits bloodbath. Stormbolt is on the GCD so has a hidden rage cost, and just doesn't do enough damage to be worth taking, unless they make it proc SnB or do about 6x as much damage its a pvp talent.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

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