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Thread: Avatar nerf

  1. #1
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    Avatar nerf

    Old
    Avatar
    : 180s CD, You transform into an unstoppable colossus for 20 sec, increasing your damage dealt by 20% and causing your attacks to generate 30% extra Rage. While transformed you are immune to movement impairing effects.

    New
    Avatar: now breaks all roots and snares, but no longer makes you immune to movement impairing effects. Duration increased to 24 sec, up from 20. No longer generates extra rage.

    Looks like there is no longer any direct benefit to taking Avatar since they removed the extra rage gained. Bloodbath anyone?

  2. #2
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    Our last tier does seem particularly lacklustre
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  3. #3
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    I think you are right. Bloodbath in conjunction with deadly calm/incite will just be a dps increase overall, sad that they cannot leave avatar alone, even if only for prot.
    Hunters never die, they just choose to commit suicide. Often.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Our last tier does seem particularly lacklustre
    I have a feeling these are tuned for Arms and Fury, I do agree for Prot they are very lackluster for level 90 talents.

    Also remember that Bloodbath only effects yellow attacks but for Prot our white attacks are pretty low, one option is to just macro Bloodbath into something like Shield Slam, with a 1min CD the uptime would be pretty high. I feel Avatar was a bit stronger only because it gave some rage.

  5. #5
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    I started testing out the other two options as soon as I found out about Avatar nerf. I tried out Bloodbath in my Prot PvE build and Storm Bolt in my Arms PvP build.

    I found that Bloodbath felt a bit like the Censure debuff when I used to tank on my Paladin, but without having to build up stacks. Only being able to do it for 12 seconds out of every minute makes it feel extremely weak, though. I don't think there will ever be a time where a Prot Warrior will say "boy bloodbath really saved us there." Since threat is a non-issue the only real benefit from it is the damage, which is minuscule The only ability that applies decent Bloodbath damage is Shield Slam and that's still fairly low, unless you stack all of your damage cooldowns with it. Even then, the talent is lackluster at best. I feel like a Prot Warrior could get away without even using a level 90 talent and not suffer at all, after the Avatar nerf.

    Storm Bolt as Arms is very nice, actually. I will miss cooldown stacking with Avatar and bursting down bear Druids in under 3 seconds, for sure. But it's more added utility and control (that will help make up for the Gag Order nerf).

    Overall, the Avatar nerf feels like it's a knee jerk reaction to PvP cooldown stacking. It needed to be nerfed, but not like this. They could have easily found a more elegant solution without totally trashing the level 90 talent tier for Prot Warriors.
    Last edited by Slyvar; 10-29-2012 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagezero View Post
    I have a feeling these are tuned for Arms and Fury, I do agree for Prot they are very lackluster for level 90 talents.
    I feel Stormbolt needs a "does more damage with 1 handed weapons" type modifyer (like heroic strike) or a plain double the weapon damage scaling ( like baldestorm) it jsut so weak for prot, especiall as it takes a gcd.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I feel Stormbolt needs a "does more damage with 1 handed weapons" type modifyer (like heroic strike) or a plain double the weapon damage scaling ( like baldestorm) it jsut so weak for prot, especiall as it takes a gcd.
    For sure, when I tested it when I first got to 90 it was hitting for like 7k on mobs that could be stunned and 21k otherwise, a level 90 talent with a 30 sec CD that hits for less than Devastate.

  8. #8
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    Really they could have just removed the "immune to CCs" part for PvP and been fine, "RAWR I'M A STACKIN ALL MAH DAMAGE COOLDOWNS!!" oh... I'm cycloned... and all my cooldowns are falling off... well... interesting...

    I think I'll still use avatar for those situations when I get to execute bomb the boss.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  9. #9
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    I'm bummed about it not generating rage anymore. I also don't understand the immue to movement impairing affects. I'm a Colossus. I'm huge, basically made of stone. And I'm now no longer immune to shit that is going to slow me down? At least the damage increase is still there, for those lust moments.
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  10. #10
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    Becuase you're a colossus, not the juggernaught. the removal of the movement impairing immunity is a PVP thing.Bloodbath Is more DPS at present, with the removal of the extra component Bloodbath is still gonna be better DPS.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  11. #11
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    The issue in PvP has very little to do with the CC immunity. Cooldown stacking is the problem. When a Warrior pops Avatar in conjunction with several other cooldowns, they do an INSANE amount of damage in PvP. A much more elegant fix would be to not allow the damage increase from Avatar to stack with Berserker Rage and/or possibly put Recklessness on a shared cooldown with Avatar.

    This lowers burst without putting a huge dent in PvE damage. It also leaves the bonus rage that Prot likes from it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    The issue in PvP has very little to do with the CC immunity. Cooldown stacking is the problem. When a Warrior pops Avatar in conjunction with several other cooldowns, they do an INSANE amount of damage in PvP. A much more elegant fix would be to not allow the damage increase from Avatar to stack with Berserker Rage and/or possibly put Recklessness on a shared cooldown with Avatar.

    This lowers burst without putting a huge dent in PvE damage. It also leaves the bonus rage that Prot likes from it.
    They're not removing the damage dealing part of it though, which is what I understand is the issue with PvP cooldown stacking. If you're doing burst in PvP, aren't you dumping all of your rage at that point anyways? This change does nothing to fix damage problems other than the warrior can now be CC'd, which they could change without screwing over prot with the nerf bat of no more rage gen.

    This change makes no sense to me.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  13. #13
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    TBH i think our last tier needs a total rework, Stormbolt is just an extra stun and we have 2 DPS cds now. in PVE there no real reason to take avatar as any spec, Bloodbath is better DPS and all warriors have acces to safguard for root breaking. iIf blizzard want tlaents to be meaning ful choices and no mandatory booby talents they failed with warrior level 90.

    I mean it really say something when our level 30 talent gets more discussion than our level 90 talent
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
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    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    They're not removing the damage dealing part of it though, which is what I understand is the issue with PvP cooldown stacking. If you're doing burst in PvP, aren't you dumping all of your rage at that point anyways? This change does nothing to fix damage problems other than the warrior can now be CC'd, which they could change without screwing over prot with the nerf bat of no more rage gen.

    This change makes no sense to me.
    I agree.

    If you look at the blog they posted today, they still say that they think Warrior burst in PvP is a problem... So, the Avatar nerf (in the form it is currently taking) makes no sense at all. The bonus rage was a very big part of why cooldown stacking with Avatar was overpowered though. I will give them that. The bonus rage allowed you to basically spam your most expensive hardest-hitting abilities for the duration of Avatar. Which contributed to the burst.

    But overall, they aren't solving the problem. Just lowering it a little bit and screwing prot PvE in the process. I also agree with Teng. With the change to Avatar, the entire level 90 tier for Warriors feels like it needs a rework.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    The bonus rage allowed you to basically spam your most expensive hardest-hitting abilities for the duration of Avatar.
    Really...because for PVE Prot the extra rage is hardly noticeable, makes me think even more that all 90 talents for Prot are very lame.

  16. #16
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    IIRC the for prot it equates to about an extra 1.1rps if you use it on cd so potentially an extra 3 SBs/Sbars a minute.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    IIRC the for prot it equates to about an extra 1.1rps if you use it on cd so potentially an extra 3 SBs/Sbars a minute.
    How are calculating so much rage, I was figuring for 20 sec on average you would get 4 SS and 3 Rev, that's: (4*20 + 3*15) * .3 = 37.5 rage per 3min.

  18. #18
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    I made this handy little calculator....though i could be remebering wrong, i havne't really worried about since MoP hit. On average you should get more than 4SSs in a 20 second span.


    EDIT:we should have about 20 seconds every 3 minutes which is 11% uptime and an average protwarrior will produce about ~8rps so its worth about 0.9rps take off a little for the RPS form not offensive abilities.
    Last edited by Tengenstein; 10-31-2012 at 03:35 PM.
    Harsh Words and Steel: A Protection Warrior Guide
    MoP RPS Calculator

    Hunters, Just get a Sporebat, most LFRs will be missing that buff.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pagezero View Post
    Really...because for PVE Prot the extra rage is hardly noticeable, makes me think even more that all 90 talents for Prot are very lame.
    I'm not talking about Avatar on it's own. I'm talking about in a cooldown stacking situation. You have to remember you don't just pick random moments to hit your cooldown macro. You build up to 70-90 rage so you start with a good pool, plus Deadly Calm (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85730) is part of your macro.

    Spamming your abilities for 20 seconds isn't hard with a good starting rage pool + extra rage + cheap heroic strikes and slams.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slyvar View Post
    I'm not talking about Avatar on it's own. I'm talking about in a cooldown stacking situation. You have to remember you don't just pick random moments to hit your cooldown macro. You build up to 70-90 rage so you start with a good pool, plus Deadly Calm (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85730) is part of your macro.

    Spamming your abilities for 20 seconds isn't hard with a good starting rage pool + extra rage + cheap heroic strikes and slams.
    This sounds fine for Arms and Fury, but I think what you are missing is that we are discussing how this effects Protection Warriors, and how the only true benefit in our level 90 talents was the rage increase from Avatar to increase the amount of damage we could mitigate.
    Now I'm not saying that Prot Warriors cannot follow the instructions above, it's just that it does nothing in any relative terms for helping us Tank anything.
    Hunters never die, they just choose to commit suicide. Often.

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