Prot Warrior Weapon Enchant

[Gregasaurous]

Ok, so the purpose of this thread is too look at the value of the various weapon enchants available right now and figure out which will actually hold more benefit. Namely:

Dancing Steel: Increases Strength or Agility by 1650 when dealing damage. Highest of the two stats is always chosen.
It has a proc-rate of 1 PPM and a *duration of 12 seconds, no ICD and will refresh itself should if it proc back to back. ONLY procs off an attack that lands*
*(UNCONFIRMED, read it in comments on wow-head.)

River's Song: Increases Dodge by 1650 when dealing damage for 7 seconds.
It has a proc rate of 2 PPM and *can proc off of attacks that are dodged/parried or miss. It can also stack with itself*
*(Once again, unconfirmed, read those parts in comments.)

I'm not including Windsong or Colossus in this comparison, you are free to do so if you wish in the comments should one of them just happen to be ridiculously better, contrary to my all to often in-accurate opinion.

Anyway, so basically the main reason for my hesitance to go with one or the other is the higher DR on Dodge VS the slightly decreased conversion rate of Strength to Parry. And then there are also the proc-rates which if you're fully hit/expertise capped would make them almost equal.
And last (and actually maybe least) strenght = AP which = a slightly heftier Sbar and a very minor dps boost. Though i don't think it will be that hefty of a difference to have it bare much weight.

Please leave all discussion about the costs out, for the sake of the discussion resources are not an issue under any circumstance.

[Tengenstein]

Is there a VERY high DR on Dodge? or is that just hyperbole for its worse than the DR on parry? and since when did dodge stop proccing revenge? if we're assuming dancing steel has a 20% uptime and riversong a 23% uptime its 330 strength vs 385 dodge rating which since we're only getting sbar increases from vengeance and the +10% AP buff means an average increase to sbar of 66, if we assume 94% conversion pre DR its still 310 parry rating.

So both are pretty bleh, pick the one that favours your current parry/dodge balance, which will involve some math, or go for another enchant. A living steel weapon chain is 200 expertise and is my choice.

[Gregasaurous]

and since when did dodge stop proccing revenge?

Since i started forgetting some very basic class mechanics........ unfortunately there's no smiley face that's doing an epic facepalm

That aside, I somehow completely forgot aobut the weapon chain being a blacksmith and all.

[Airowird]

Overall:

River's Song > Dancing Steel > Windsong (Paladin) > Living Steel Weapon Chain > Windsong (Warrior)

You can see for yourself here

Edit: I haven't seen River's Song in action, but according to a comment on Wowhead it can stack with itself atleast two times, which would make it somewhere around 40-50% better than the spreadsheet says.

[sifuedition]

And colossus is far enough back to not be listed?

[Dreador]

River's Song procs constantly and stacks up to 2. I have 8% dodge and it puts me at 11.5% which really isn't too bad considering DR.

[Quietsch]

And colossus is far enough back to not be listed?

Colossus has a simple problem, as it's a static value. It's roughly as good as windsong up to 5m hcs.

Btw, Airo, shouldn't I15 be 1500*uptime, instead of 1650?
Also the RPPM calculation seems to be missing a *2 factor, as Windsong is 2 RPPM.

[Airowird]

I have no idea how to compare Colossus HPS vs damage reduction stats in a general way (especially as the rest only stops melee damage), so I left it out on purpose. It's in the spreadsheet if you want to know the numbers (along with the Elemental Force DPS), but I can't fit it in a strict comparison listing without adding 17 exceptions for it.

[Airowird]

Fixed the Windsong thing.
The RPPM calculation is for 1 RPPM. I used 2/3 * that for Windsong (2 RPPM, 1/3 possible buffs)


Fixed the River's Song & Windsong static stat values, with RS stacking up to 2 and Windsong now being 1500 of the random stat


Correct spreadsheet: MoP Tank enchant sheet.xls


General suggestion:

Heroics: Colossus > Windsong(Paladin) > Weapon Chain > Windsong(Warriors).
If you also play Fury Warrior with it: Weapon Chain(both uncapped) > Windsong.
Raids: River's Song ~ Colossus(10m) > Colossus(25m), Dancing Steel for Fury combo.

I could see merrit in Colossus enchants in 10man raids, depending on your healer setup (and quality), but the damage absorbs will be far too low for 25man to validate it's use. With Dancing Steel being very RNG-reliant, I would suggest Colossus over it from a pure tanking PoV in a raiding environment.

[Gregasaurous]

Even in a 10 man colossus just doesn't put out enough IMO. A absorb for 8k is less than 2% of my health-pool. I would rate this down there with healing blade of cata. It'll get you through a 5 man beautifully, but in a raid environment it gets completely drowned out on the charts. You would be much better off with a weapon chain and the ability to get extra S-Bar's in over the course of the fight.

[Airowird]

The benefit if Colossus is that it 'always' works when it procs, it works on all types of damage and ... it works while you're not tanking.
That's why I opted to put it near River's Song for 10man tanks, it really comes down to the situation in half the cases.

[Airowird]

In response to the blue post regarding 5.1 weapon enchant changes:

In 5.1, we’re migrating four additional procs over to the Real PPM system. Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit are 2 Real PPM, River's Song is 4 Real PPM, and Colossus is 6 Real PPM.

The tanking weapon enchants roughly lose about 25% uptime/effectiveness, which was to be expected from going X PPM to 2*X RPPM (it needs to be ~2.75 times as much to theoreticlylevel out for tanks). The upside is that any small (<10s) loss in boss uptime is no longer effecting over time uptime, so e.g. Elegon you would get a higher chance on proccing when going to pick up the add or ending p2.

The new spreadsheet is here: MoP Tank enchant sheet (1).xls

[Takethecake]

I have a feeling that we are going to see our fair share of dodge procs/click effects this expansion from trinkets (which is great for druids/monks). Given that I already have the DMF trinket, engineering gloves, and currently the brewfest trinket... Once I finally get a weapon worth upgrading from colossus I'll likely be using the Dancing Steel enchant I think. When our avoidance totals get higher and dodge starts getting punished more and more I think dancing steel will likely be the best bet.

[Tengenstein]

YOur gonna have to get alot of dodge rating to make Riversong fall behind though, especially as the engineering tinker shares a 10s GCD with on use trinkets.

[gom]

so I got a new weapon today and I was wondering if I should go for the deeps. so I quickly made a simcraft run with the given 5.2 sample prot warrior.

I just run the sample without and with dancing steal proc. Dancing Steel turned out to be a gain of 839 dps on the first run. so its probably somewhere between 750-850 dps.

I was curious how much of a dps gain it is for an arms warrior an it turned out to be a gain of 2798 dps.

the static equivalent dodge rating of 1164 from riversong is worth ~1.2% in my gear. ~1.7% during the proc (ilvl 509)

Both enchants are pretty underwhelming as usual.

So maybe I'll go with jade spirit

[Tengenstein]

You're comparing apples and oranges here though, either compare the DPS of riversong to the DPS on Dancing Steel, or compare the Avoidance gains of both. and how ae you calculating the static equivalent of the dodge proc?

[gom]

You're comparing apples and oranges here though, either compare the DPS of riversong to the DPS on Dancing Steel, or compare the Avoidance gains of both. and how ae you calculating the static equivalent of the dodge proc?

check out airowirds spreadsheet post #12 (procuptime*1650)

the avoidance from the dancing steel proc is worth 1.6% in my gear during the proc and the static equivalent is worth 0.56% Parry

it seems rather good it can almost match riversong so maybe I made a mistake. I used airowirds prot warrior spreadsheet.

my paper doll stats are:
13338 strength
4732 dodge rating
4447 parry rating

[Tengenstein]

But River's Song can stack twice, so its not 1650*uptime.

[Selendis]

In all honestly, the enchants overall are piss-poor for the kind of tanking philosophy mostly practised around these parts... The dmg smoothing (or, never-go-low, if you will) approach. I feel like static equivalents and such are really only suited for a TDR argument. Which to me translates to comparing the enchants on an almost worthless parameter.
Even a dodge/parry use effect would enable us to use it at critical point. What we have here is a somewhat randomly occuring proc that influences the probability of the random event of a dodge... It's just... bleh, terrible.

Since I consider both of them garbage as tanking enchants, I'm running dancing steel simply because it does a decent job of increasing my dps. Which is not entirely irrelevant in 10 man...

Honestly, I can see the argument for taking the weapon chain above both of them, simply because the static expertise could potentially becomes static mastery on another item (reforging <3)

[Airowird]

But River's Song can stack twice, so its not 1650*uptime.

Actually I updated the spreadsheet to take that into account. But in a realistic situation, the double stack basicly makes up for the shorter duration.
Edit: That said, you need to look at Cell F5 which is 1650 * (1 + double_stack_chance) * uptime to be accurate, not just take the proc uptime & go off on your own with it

Roughly speaking, it's an average 600 Strength vs 1200 Dodge Rating.
For DPS: Dancing Steel > Windsong > Weapon Chain > Elemental Force
For damage reduction: River's Song > Colossus > Dancing Steel > Windsong unless it's mostly magic damage, then Colossus wins ofc.

(That said, the spreadsheet is based on the old RPPM mechanic, which has now been changed into something more convoluted.
If I have time this weekend, I'll take a look and see if I can't update the sheet to reflect the new mechanic, although it should be a very similar result in uptime anyway.) This is apparently only true for trinkets, my math remains valid