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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Splitting the 10 and 25-man Raid Lockouts

  1. #21
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    im in a 25 man guild, however we have been running 10s due to slow recruitment and previous expansion raiders dropping out or just not ready.

    if we set up a 25 man on say tues, clear 1/2 the instance but the next raid night, we only have 15 and have to run a 10, are we going to have to start that 10 from the beginning or can we convert that raid id?

  2. #22
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    Although I like the no-loot-on-repeat idea, normal/heroic raids don't have personal rolls, so it would be too complicated to come up with a system where players don't feel cheated out of loot and at the same time can't abuse rerunning stuff.
    Unless you bring the 'LFR Personal Roll' system to Normal/Heroic.

    No need to make it standard, as seeing loot drop from a boss is a lot more exciting than getting a bag of gold. If one player is Locked to that boss, everyone defaults to the Personal Roll system. Players that have killed the boss get nothing. If no one is locked to that boss, it will use the current loot system.

  3. #23
    I find it kind of funny how many people are so quick to jump out and say "Your concerns don't matter, because this would be nice for ME." Games should be fun for everyone playing them.
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  4. #24
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    Raid Finder was supposed to be the easy raid to provide the alternate path which could be run as a guild run, PUG or LFG.
    But they only made it 25M so for most it is only a LFG option.
    If they brought in 10M Raid Finder you could run it with friends which would be a good way to bring new people to raiding.

    On gear levels ... why should 25M be higher than 10M. You should be doing 25M because it is more fun not because you get better gear.

    If you want to run both 10M and 25M each week make an alt that is the same class.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    I find it kind of funny how many people are so quick to jump out and say "Your concerns don't matter, because this would be nice for ME." Games should be fun for everyone playing them.
    Thats because no one cares about the marmot when they punt!

  6. #26
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    I always found the loot differential a bit weird. I appreciate that the organisers have to do a lot more work organising a 25 man. But lets not kid ourselves here - they only make up a few members of the team. I raided extensively at both 10 and 25 man level in the past and a lot of the time I didn't have to do anything different in 25 man versus 10 man but I received far better loot.... I actually felt more guilty for that than I do when I receive my purple shower in RF.

    Something didn't feel right in Wrath when a guy bouncing along the bottom of the DPS meter in a 25 man normal was being awarded the same gear as a guy in a 10 Man Heroic mode (in a ten man guild/gear) who had a lot more responsibility... As I say lets not kid ourselves - 10 HC was harder than 25 Normal even IF you cheesed the 10 HC wearing 25 man gear - and many 10 man guilds had no such luxury.

    Given that 10 Mans in Cata/MOP are tuned harder than they were in Wrath I think it is pretty outrageous that over half the raid team in a 25 man will be awarded better gear when they haven't put in any extra effort. Yeah Gratz to their GM, raid leader and officers but the rest of them just logged on 10 mins before raid start and sat in Orgrimmar waiting for a summon. Sure there will be talk of "oh but you have to be more aware of your surroundings as there are more players" - err no that wasn't my experience sorry. Not for most roles on most fights.

    To me it just looks like players are being bribed into a doing a mode that all things being equal they choose not to do (even those that don't have to do extra work) with welfare epics.

    So with regards to the lockout, we have had a lot of complaints about being "forced" into doing things recently and I guess that 10 man will be as mandatory as daily quests and RF. I think Lore is right in saying that this won't be the stroll in the park that 10 mans were for us 25 man raiders in Wrath. You could even find yourself road blocked on some bosses that turn out to be harder than the 25 man version - I assume heroic modes will also benefit from the separate lock out?
    Last edited by Toypop; 10-26-2012 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Spelling/Grammar

  7. #27
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    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Korean players pay monthly, I think they pay as they play. If that's the case, then this change may be nothing more than to look at a way to increase revenues from Korean players. If you give them twice as much to do, they will play twice as often. I think that may have been the impetus behind the shorter lockout experiment during Firelands as well.

    I really don't see this change coming to the US/EU servers, but if it did, I think it would re-affirm that Blizzard are a little lost in terms of game design. The problem I see is they are developing a tendency to swing back and forth to extremes to try to please the different playerbases in the game. However, everytime they do swing one way or the other, they end up annoying a whole bunch of people, which at this stage of the game isn't a great idea.

  8. #28
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    Koreans have the option of paying per month and paying in 5hr chunks. I believe it costs them $8/month for wow + starcraft. Not sure what the hourly rates are and what the break down between payment options are,

    I am pretty sure the increased ilvl gear in 25man will end up being equivalent to the new VP upgraded gear. I don't think blizzard is going to design completely new gear for one region. Basically 25man gear will be gear pre upgraded with the new VP upgrade system and gear from 10s will have to be upgraded via VP to match it in power.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeezy View Post
    Koreans have the option of paying per month and paying in 5hr chunks. I believe it costs them $8/month for wow + starcraft. Not sure what the hourly rates are and what the break down between payment options are,

    I am pretty sure the increased ilvl gear in 25man will end up being equivalent to the new VP upgraded gear. I don't think blizzard is going to design completely new gear for one region. Basically 25man gear will be gear pre upgraded with the new VP upgrade system and gear from 10s will have to be upgraded via VP to match it in power.
    Thanks for the clarification. That does support the idea that they are just looking for ways to get more of the Korean gaming dollar then.

  10. #30
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    The biggest issue I have with it is that it completely screws over the world first race. KIN raiders (a korean guild) achieved the world first heroic madness kill, this was on an even playing field. These changes toss that playing field out the window. They'll have twice the chance at loot and better ilvl gear. Any world firsts they get will not be respected, and any world 2nds EU or US guilds get will be tainted b/c "technically a korean guild killed it first". I get that they have a different playstyle, but it just throws a huge wrench into the competitive raiding scene.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Therec View Post
    The biggest issue I have with it is that it completely screws over the world first race. KIN raiders (a korean guild) achieved the world first heroic madness kill, this was on an even playing field. These changes toss that playing field out the window. They'll have twice the chance at loot and better ilvl gear. Any world firsts they get will not be respected, and any world 2nds EU or US guilds get will be tainted b/c "technically a korean guild killed it first". I get that they have a different playstyle, but it just throws a huge wrench into the competitive raiding scene.
    If this goes live for Korea and stays that way for the next tier of raids, then the WF race would exclude Korea as people would consider it 'unfair advantage'



    And I think Lore said it best:

    We (Not just gamers, but in general) don't know what we're asking for.

    I'd really like Blizzard Korea's explanation on why they decided to test it. (Especially since it is bringing back the same issue that was the cause of shared lockouts in Cata.)

  12. #32
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    The fact that 25 man and 10 man raiding exists is the primary issue. The pool the players who would normally raid has been split between 10 and 25 man guilds, and more importantly is being skewed in the 10 man direction. It is becoming near impossible to recruit for 25 mans as 10 mans are so appealing to everyone who isn't super hardcore (and those numbers are dwindling rapidly).

    Simple solution - get rid of either 10 man or 25 man... or maybe.. just maybe.. 15 man raiding!

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Therec View Post
    The biggest issue I have with it is that it completely screws over the world first race. KIN raiders (a korean guild) achieved the world first heroic madness kill, this was on an even playing field. These changes toss that playing field out the window. They'll have twice the chance at loot and better ilvl gear. Any world firsts they get will not be respected, and any world 2nds EU or US guilds get will be tainted b/c "technically a korean guild killed it first". I get that they have a different playstyle, but it just throws a huge wrench into the competitive raiding scene.
    Kin raiders already had a double lockout on firelands and there were little complaints when they won tier 13.


    Tier 15 will probably be a long way away given that we have a couple months of pending raid nerfs to tier14 that we will need to wait for first.
    By the time tier 15 is released all the top guilds will be fully geared anyway so their increased lockout should not be a problem - assuming that the top end gear will all be the same after the VP upgrades in both regions. The only issue will really be if the next tier lasts longer than 1 week - which is doubtful. Already korean guilds are at a huge disadvantage by getting the patch 2 days after the US.

  14. #34
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    I know my views on this are definitely colored by my own situation on the matter, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. According to wowprogress, there are only ~677 25 man guilds left in the US (stone guard kills). Of those, 221 have killed heroic stone guards. (32.64%, compared to 8.4% of 10 man guilds). I believe Lore said in a PST/Weekly Marmot a few weeks back something along the lines of "25 man raiding isn't dying". For the hardcore/very skilled segment of the community, this may be true. I think that it's undeniable that 25 man raiding as something that "average" guilds do is pretty much already dead.

    I don't know if everyone agrees that this is a problem, but it's certainly depressing as someone that loves 25 man raiding. I'm not sure the proposed change is necessarily the correct change, but it would certainly help/fix this problem. I wish the "hardcore" 25 man guilds/players (or former 25 man players) would at least say SOMETHING in support of the format and "average" 25 man guilds. Instead we get an entire Weekly Marmot and tons of posts talking about how awful it would be, because the "hardcore" groups would feel compelled to run both 10 man and 25 man every week. Believe it or not, there were actually used to be guilds that raided their 9 hour schedule (or 12, or 6, or whatever), and then called it a week.

    If you have a better solution, I'd be interested in hearing it, but let's please not completely ignore the problem that this change is trying to solve. I posted the following over on mmo-champion. It should give some background on where I'm coming from.

    I raid lead 25s for 4 years until the Dragon Soul patch launched, so I may have a little more experience with the recruiting game than most of you. I was fully in support of the same gear for 25s and 10s at Cataclysm launch. The result, though, was that 25 man recruiting took it on the chin way more than anyone expected. The already difficult task of maintaining a 25 man raid roster became much more difficult.

    I'm currently running 10 mans, not by choice, but because there are about 12 people that I met in my 25 man guild that I don't want to play without, and there is literally no way to get recruits excited about a guild just making the jump to 25s.

    Don't think that everyone that is raiding 10 mans is doing so because they don't like 25 mans. There are, I'm sure, plenty of people that prefer 25s, but don't want to make the jump because it takes time to establish a 25 man raid group. It means asking your players to go through an extended period of worse raiding, to reach a period of great raiding, with a well-oiled 25 man raid.

    This change, or at least the separation of raid locks, is needed to make the choice between 10 and 25 a truly free and fair one.

  15. #35
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    Here's a point for equality of 10m and 25m: some people who are raiding 10 man are running with graphics on the lowest settings and coping with cronic lag. Either because of a unstable or cheap interent connection or cheap/outdated computers. Right now though, they are able to (in theory) be at the same level of competition and earn equal rewards as those who by choice and availability, can run 25m.

    Now I don't know what the statistic is here or if Blizzard takes it into account, but I have a hunch that they like it when as many people as possible experience all of their content and enjoy it. Satisfied customers are paying customers. I don't know about you guys, but feeling like a second class citizen for reasons out of my control kind of puts a damper on my fun time.

  16. #36
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    The reason a lot of people, especially on lower pop realms, switched from 25man to 10man in Cataclysm was simply that people left/transferred/rerolled and there weren't enough like-minded players that could fill those open spots. It's how 3 of the 4 tops guilds on my old server changed size and in the end, the server became so dead you couldn't even start a 10man raiding guild anymore without 4-5 IRL friends.

    The issue: Server transfers cost €20 per character and a LOT of people have invested tons of work in alts, either for transmog gear, profession recipes or simply have become attached to that specific character. That means server moves cost several times that price and people become discouraged from moving. I think Lore mentioned it earlier (think it was PST-100), server transfers need to go down in price and maybe should have a package deal where extra characters past the first one are extra cheap. E.g. 10-15 for the first one plus 5 for each additional character or something like that. It would certainly entice more raiders (especially those interested in 25man raiding) to look outside their server faster for a suitable guild that can house them.
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  17. #37
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    Best opening ever

  18. #38
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    The choice between 10 and 25 (and in a perfect world, even 5) man should be a matter of taste. Which group size do I prefer to hang out with? With 25 man on a decline, it indicates that a signficant part of the playerbase prefer a smaller group of people to hang out with.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    I find it kind of funny how many people are so quick to jump out and say "Your concerns don't matter, because this would be nice for ME." Games should be fun for everyone playing them.
    The pervasiveness of that attitude has a lot to do with the "lack of community" in WoW.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  20. #40
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    I think if the gear in 10 and 25 man shares the same stats but has a different item level, that makes this situation different from Wrath. I liked having dual lockouts and I never felt at that point that I was forced to do 10 man while being in a 25 man guild, especially after I got the core pieces that I needed for proper itemization.


    The measure of a life is the measure of love and respect. So hard to earn, so easily burned - Neil Peart

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