The Weekly Marmot - Splitting the 10 and 25-man Raid Lockouts
What, no seven-hour Marmot?
Sorry, but that is a load of horse crap.
Lockouts are to protect the 1% of the game players, what about the other 99%.
Again as you have said if you don't want to do them, you don't do them, no ifs or buts.
So you saying its ok for one group to hold back everyone else to give them more options.
As a 10s-only raider in Wrath, the lower difficulty wasn't a problem after the first tier (Ulduar hard-modes and heroic 10s were still plenty hard enough for us), but the compulsion some of us felt to run 25s for higher-ilvl gear was unhealthy. So I definitely think going back to the Wrath model would be worse for me; I'll reserve judgment on whether it would be worse for the game as a whole.
Would 10 and 25 specific content be a way to fix the problem of getting burnt out on content. The main raid of a certain patch would still need to be both 10 and 25 man, but the group size specific content could shift at the introduction of a new raid tier and with scaling if gear the old content would help in new tier set farming by making all new tier gear use the valor system. In example lets look at patch 4.2 to see how the content would work. Firelands would be a 10 and 25 raid because it was the main raid of the patch, but Bastion of Twilight would be a 25 man specific raid and Blackwing Decent would be the 10 man specific raid. After that tier has ran its course and Dragon Soul would come out BoT and BWD would change raid sizes and Firelands would stay and 10 and 25, but use scaling to make them them all just as difficult as the raids that match the raid group's average ilvl.
Is it odd to you that I have no idea what side it is you're taking on this particular topic?
Originally Posted by ZorPrime
As for my take, I'm already on the fence in general about how I feel about raiding...if they went ahead and made 10 mans second class citizens again (which is exactly what they're doing in Korea...worse loot, no real chance of actually doing both since you only have 10 people (or 13 or 15 or whatever...and yes, less of a big deal there since they just pug anyway, apparently, but still)) I'm pretty sure that'd be the straw that broke the camel's back (wouldn't it be better to put your straw in a wagon? Perhaps the straw that broke the wagon's axle? regardless...).
Oh me of many parentheses...
Originally Posted by Gravy
As a former 25er now doing 10s, this irritates me, because on a small server, it's pretty hard to un-burn that bridge.
But more than that, as a person trying to run a guild and a raid team, I really just need them to pick one thing, and stick with it for more than a year and a bit. Every time they make a change, their playerbase has to make a change, and those changes aren't always for the better, and they are rarely without at least some hurt feelings when someone doesn't make the cut, or can't fit in anymore, or can't work with new times, when a new lockout system either changes our raid schedule or our format.
I also really need them to tell us what they're doing, so we can actually plan for it, and not back-door these things through foreign server groups without any official announcement to us, leaving us wondering whether we'll see them ever or not, like with the twice-weekly resets that Korea got last year, and we never did.
One possible explanation for why Blizzard is doing this is as a trial period to try out the higher item level gear in 25 man raids. Blizzard has already said that they are looking into ways to make 25 man raiding more appealing, a higher item level version of the same gear would certainly do that. If the two raids shared a lockout and people in KR were forced to only do one or the other then we might see 25mans under represented simply because they are more difficult to arrange without a raiding guild. By splitting the lockout people are able to do both and because Blizzard is able to collect a ton of data on what raids people are doing, they can see whether the better gear is enough of a motivator to get people doing 25mans. If it is then maybe they will introduce the better gear to the rest of us (but keep the shared lockout that we currently have) as a way to reward players that do 25 man for the logistical challenges associated with getting 25 people together week after week (after week after week...).
Ok, this is COMPLETELY off topic, and yet not since this is about the video. I cant for the life of me see the cut from the solid purple unicorn pillow to the rainbow version. im usually really good at finding the cut but that is just flawless editing sir. my hats off to you, i am most impressed.
What ever happened to the girl who used to do this show? I cant remember her name now...
On topic: wouldnt it be better to give normal and heroic different lockouts? That way 10M and 25M are still viable but gives people more to do every week but not so much.
Last edited by Suicideking666; 10-25-2012 at 09:46 PM.
On the topic of the video, i am ambivelent to what changes they make to the lock-outs because my computer simply cannot handle raiding in the 25man enviornment. I only muddle my way through LFR as it is something i can do on my own time that im not holding back an entire guild if i lag out every so often and my DPS drops. I do consider myself to be focused on progressing my characters, but not to a point that i feel forced to do anything but VP cap and raid when i can.
I can't seem to get past the intro in the video, someone keeps restarting it.
I distinctly remember Blizzard had said along the lines of, that they had put in the shared lockouts so people weren't forced (no they don't "have to" but we all know to be competitive, yes you did) to run a raid twice a week. Even if the ilvls stayed the same and it was just "okay you can do it twice but one of them you need more people with you," any guild that was going for Firsts would need to do both so they have more chances at gear and stay ahead. If they left it as Korean-only, then they would get double chances at gear, and higher ilvl gear than EU, NA et al, thus giving them quite an advantage for all the Firsts. They changed it so people didn't need to do both to be the best (and burn themselves out quicker doing so), but putting it back to that because 25m groups are more scarce? Sorry, but the people that really want to do 25 over 10 will (should) go wherever the other 25ers are and continue to do them.
cata killed our small guild alliance (ASGA). From the dawn of WoW up to WoTLK we raided as a group of small guilds (each guild 10-50 members) where we could experience large raids (on normal). We used a DKP system and it worked fairly well and there was a minimum of drama. When cata came most of the small guilds could do 10 man and the 25-man raids died instantly.
I know that not many small guild alliances exist so Blizzard cannot cater that for us but a part of the fun died with the death of our Alliance. Each loved its own guild so a merger to one superguild was out of the question (that would have caused drama with all the hot heads in one guild)
the situation is now thus that our guild can only run 10-man sometimes when everyone shows up (we are a small old old guild (full of old people) and we dont want to recruit anymore) and never ran 25-man in cata. That fact made me a sad panda and cata less enjoyable.
One thing I would like to comment to the Weekly marmot. When you get older and hopefully more mature, you realize you dont need "candy" all the time. This game is not about the loot, it never was. It is about the experience and the journey you take together (and yes, I do like it shiny stuff when it drops, I am not that hypocrite. I just don't crave it anymore).
I miss 25-man raiding, but I accept that I will never experience it anymore (LFR does not count!). I miss the ASGA but only the shell of the forums remain.
Aliena. She did a few marmots back at the beginning I think. She also did a lot of the Wrath of the Lich King (I think) videoguides, then sorta just disappeared.
Originally Posted by Suicideking666
Last I heard, her and Ciderhelm got married and had a kid. She's been doing the mommy thing. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that came up in a thread a little while back.
Interesting story...I did a google image search for ciderhelm as I don't think I've ever seen him in a tankspot vid. Not only did I see what he looks like from that, I saw pics of Kaze at Blizzcon and bonus, pics of Lore with short hair!!!!!
It was LEGEN.....wait for it.....DARY!
p.s. Lore, stick with the flowing mane.
Last edited by sifuedition; 10-26-2012 at 06:12 AM.
Sharing 10 & 25 man lookout slows overall progress, which means content lasts longer, which means there can be more time spent on designing new raiding tiers before raiders get bored or simply more content to be created. So splitting lockouts would actually pressure Blizzard to push out more content as players burn through it faster. For that reason alone I don't see it as a good idea for them to do it in non-KR regions.
Although I like the no-loot-on-repeat idea, normal/heroic raids don't have personal rolls, so it would be too complicated to come up with a system where players don't feel cheated out of loot and at the same time can't abuse rerunning stuff.
'Your still going to be running 10man for that upgrade that isn't dropping in 25'..
Speaking from a 25man raiders perspective, I'd would a billion times rather be doing 10man on the side with players I know.., then having to run LFR with players who have brain cancer, are utterly retarded, suffering from mouth diaria n' whatnot.
Not only would it be faster clearing on 10man then LFR, but your also 100% guaranteed to avoid coming out with a banging headache, and you could have a few laughs while clearing.
If your raiding 10man it's not like you need the gear from 25man if it ends up being 5ilvl higher, to clear on 10man.., the exact same reason why you don't need LFR gear to clear heroic dungeons, it's virtually the same comparison if it's stays with the same difficulty as it is in Mogu'shan vaults.
Currently 10 man content is much easier to clear than 25 man content. A 25 man raid should have a bigger incentive to keep on being a 25 man raid. The higher item level gear that the KR servers now get is this incentive. Unfortunately it is currently unavailable to US servers (where I play). I am in a 25 man raiding guild, I quite enjoy 25 man raids, and this just seems a slight bit offensive to 25 man guilds that aren't on KR servers.
Cataclysm also killed a small guild alliance on my server, but I think that was more about guild levels and less about 10/25 shared lockouts.
Originally Posted by Ilze